Companion's Builds, ouch.

[Magrusaod]

So, I'm going to be scrounging for some extra cash to buy myself a cypher on this playthrough? Good to know. Was waiting for the patch to hit to invest more time into this game. 

[LadyCrimson]

But it's obvious that Obsidian intended the companions to be jack of all trades types, maybe with a focus on one area but not exclusively.

This. They're meant to be more "generic", imo, in order for more people/playstyles to at least find them usable. Not everyone min/maxes or even min/maxes in the same way, and with the limited number of written-companions, they're going to be more general types (even if they do have a bit of initial focus) so they can be altered with equipment/leveling choices etc. to fit in with as many playstyles as possible, for those that want to experience their stories/quests.

 

Idealized, super optimized parties is what the creating your own hirelings function is for.

[sage2]

For folks that are concerned about the companion stats aren't retroactive, why not just use the command line to update the stats to patch the new official stats (I think it': AttributeScore charname attribute value)

[AgentTBC]

I do think Grieving Mother could use some tweaking unless there is a very good reason story-wise why she is so... nothing.  I'm not sure what her role is supposed to be ability-wise.

[Odd Hermit]

 

But it's obvious that Obsidian intended the companions to be jack of all trades types, maybe with a focus on one area but not exclusively.

This. They're meant to be more "generic", imo, in order for more people/playstyles to at least find them usable. Not everyone min/maxes or even min/maxes in the same way, and with the limited number of written-companions, they're going to be more general types (even if they do have a bit of initial focus) so they can be altered with equipment/leveling choices etc. to fit in with as many playstyles as possible, for those that want to experience their stories/quests.

 

Idealized, super optimized parties is what the creating your own hirelings function is for.

 

 

This might make a small amount of sense for the tankier melee classes such as Fighter and Paladin.

 

For the casters tough, there's just no reason you shouldn't have high Int on any caster build. Any. Might and Dex are only slightly more debatable, but realistically...no, you want 17+ Might and Int, 15+ Dex - you can pull that off without dumping any stats too dramatically.

 

Of course the easiest solution is to just let us choose to build the companions, keeping class/appearance but the rest being fair game. People who don't want to tinker with a full 6 characters could opt out, while the character building junkies can go nuts. Sure, you can hire adventurers, but that's a lonely experience and you miss out on a fair amount of content.

 

I don't see why we can't have a system that allows for both fully custom parties (sans Monk/Rogue) while still having the extra quests, dialogue, etc.

[sterrius]

 

Some folks are saying their Aloth and Eder's stats are diferent on a new playthrough so looks like there's more after all.

  

Hmmm... Anyone want to do a quick "collect all the characters as fast as possible" run?    

Sounds like the stat fixes didn't apply retroactively as intended.  

If they are still fubar'd I'll probably slap a mod together to fix this saturday, I think I've got a working method to pull apart and put back together the asset files without fussin about with the materials nonsense.    

 

Would like to see suggested stat blocks for each from more experienced players; I know my way around unity and modding/file manipulation, but I have less than 10 hours in PoE right now.  (Not for lack of trying, just haven't had the free time yet).  

Guidelines should be as follows to avoid min/maxiness:  

-No more than one 18+ score before race bonuses.  (This does not mean everyone should have an 18)

-No score over 20 after race bonuses 

-No scores lower than 10  

-No change in total attribute scores.  

-Ideally it shouldn't be a set of scores that shoehorns them into a specific build  

  

This should give us viable characters without min/maxing.

 

 

About the "Recommended stats" for everyone!

 

One simple way of doing it is going D&D4.0 or 5.0 character creation With fixed pré-builds. 

 

They have 77 points! (1 companion have 78) .  Usually those builds come with a Strong Attribute and one Very Weak Attribute.  

 

Example of balanced builds.  (All have 77 points) 

 

 18 - 16 - 14 - 12 - 10 - 7   

 16-  14 - 13 - 13 - 11 - 10  

  16- 16 - 14 - 12 - 10 - 9   

  17 - 16 - 15 - 10 - 10 - 9 

   16 - 15 - 14 - 11 - 11 -10

   15 - 14 - 14 - 13 - 12 - 9

 

Usually you will want 1 Primary attribute to be the strongest.  The one that will define that character (Example for Aloth would be INT),

 

- Two to Three Secondary Attributes that will not fall much behind.  One at least should be in one recommended attribute.  (For Aloth would be Might)

- Now  1 to two attributes should give him a problem, to not make him perfect.  In this case sacrificing his DEX should be ok giving a low value or even below 10 value.  The rest is just filler for a mage like aloth not really impacting his gameplay but giving him roleplay. 

 

I would finish him like this!

Aloth My example build!

Mig: 15 Con: 10 Dex: 9 Per: 14 Int 17 Res: 12

 

The way i see aloth (dont did his full history yet) is a Mage

 

INT 17 represent his intelligence and study, like any mage.

His might with 15 represent his strenght of spirit to keep going in a hard to master job. 

His dex is crap because he have little time to improve his physical form, he is training to cast spells, not run a marathon. 

Perception is high because his intelligence make him see what most can´t see. 

Resolve just above average, he is no leader, but can give a important advice here and there. 

 

This is just a example of how i would build those characters.  The problem is i dont have the full history of some, for example, Aloth.  And this can make me make mistakes.   And its my opinion, just one opinion in the middle of millions.    Obsidian have acess to the creators of those characters, they know better than anyone their history and how they must be. 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[AgentTBC]

Putting 17+ might and Int, 15+ dex on casters is min-maxxing.  It just is.  It's the very definition of min-maxxing!   Which is absolutely fine for characters you build but isn't reasonable to expect from the companions.

[Nurse Aenima]

I am happy about the changes in companion stats the patch has brought. Shame about the Grieving Mother, but maybe she was just omitted and the next patch will bring a fix there as well.

[Odd Hermit]

Putting 17+ might and Int, 15+ dex on casters is min-maxxing.  It just is.  It's the very definition of min-maxxing!   Which is absolutely fine for characters you build but isn't reasonable to expect from the companions.

nah, 19 using culture to get either might or int, and wood elf for dex and the accuracy buff is min-max.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[AgentTBC]

Close enough.  It's not a remotely balanced distribution which is what you should expect from companions.

[don Zappo]

For folks that are concerned about the companion stats aren't retroactive, why not just use the command line to update the stats to patch the new official stats (I think it': AttributeScore charname attribute value)

I'll second this.  If that disables achievements, you can always grab the mod here which allows you change stats and not disable achievements. 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/1/?

[sage2]

 

For folks that are concerned about the companion stats aren't retroactive, why not just use the command line to update the stats to patch the new official stats (I think it': AttributeScore charname attribute value)

I'll second this.  If that disables achievements, you can always grab the mod here which allows you change stats and not disable achievements. 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/1/?

 

Thanks for the reminder -- yet, I'm using IE Mod. I'm not sure whether this Console attribute modifiers would normally invalidate Steam achievements or not. Regardless, I change all my companions stats to match their new values in about 10 minutes. So, if this is important to you, you can do this.

[sterrius]

Close enough.  It's not a remotely balanced distribution which is what you should expect from companions.

Not so much, most Companions in Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 got some very fine stats on the main stats they needed.  Never going below 15 on the main stat and usually having also +1 to two high stats.  In fact it was very easy to see a companion of BG to shadow the main character and fight  with him in anything you wanted your main char to be. 

 

The worst companion you could get int he BG saga is Quayle with only 67 points.   But he was the exception, in fact i dont think BG1 and 2 have another companion below 77 points in stats.  Most orbit around 80-90 with even some passing. (Saverok got 95) 

 

You would also find a lot of Min-Max companions ( Edwin with its INT 18 (mage) and a item that gived him 1 extra slot (Making him a int 20 mage) or Kivan of BG1 with Dex 17 and Strenght 18/17 for a ranger making him a monster with a bow). 

 

AD&D Recommended 75 points. (Somewhere in the master´s guide) 

 

Minsc was a monster even by Min-Max standarts. And it was the most memorable character of the franchise.  (75 points)

Strength: 18/93

Dexterity: 16

Constitution: 16

Intelligence: 8

Wisdom: 6

Charisma: 9

 

Jaheira a Fighter/Druid  (88 points) 

Strength: 15

Dexterity: 17

Constitution: 17

Intelligence: 10

Wisdom: 14

Charisma: 15

 

The only attribute she was bad was int. That have no purpose for her.   14 is her lowest stat going for a absurd 88 Points build!  (I played AD&D and the Book Recommended 75). 

 

Aerie   (82 ) 

Strength: 10

Dexterity: 17

Constitution: 9

Intelligence: 16

Wisdom: 16

Charisma: 14

 

Korgan,   (76)

Strength: 18/77

Dexterity: 15

Constitution: 19

Intelligence: 12

Wisdom: 9

Charisma: 7

 

Viconia (84) 

Strength: 10

Dexterity: 19

Constitution: 8

Intelligence: 16

Wisdom: 18

Charisma: 14

 

 

You can get from this that they where strong, very strong, most with above 75 points.  (Well, most did 80-90 points build to play BG2 and get the conversations).  

 

And to represent the uber min-max settings and strongest companion in the saga.  Saverok He is even smart enough to debate with mages while he is breaking their skulls.  

Saverok (95)

Class: Fighter

Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Strength: 18/00

Dexterity: 17

Constitution: 18

Intelligence: 17

Wisdom: 10

Charisma: 15

 

And BG2 Companions are the classic and most remembered ones.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by sterrius

[AgentTBC]

They were okay but no levitating talking skull.

[gandalfrockman]

Putting 17+ might and Int, 15+ dex on casters is min-maxxing.  It just is.  It's the very definition of min-maxxing!   Which is absolutely fine for characters you build but isn't reasonable to expect from the companions.

Having a character setup this way AFTER their race bonus does not sound min/max'd at all.  

It sounds about right for ONE OF the casters,  they shouldn't all be setup that way, and I would probably look @ 18/16/15, or 18/16/14 instead.  It sounds more in line with what I would expect from one of the old infinity engine games. That character is going to be sort of like minsc, with a few very solid stats, but some distinct deficiencies elsewhere, and there are multiple caster builds you could pursue with those scores.  

 

The problem is that the attribute scores assigned in game right now make the characters Capable of doing many different things, but Incapable of doing any of them well enough to be useful past Normal mode (and even there, some of them are questionable).      

  

Edit:Just as a note- I am NOT suggesting all the BG2 characters make sense as a model for this...  

None of the characters in PoE should have stats like saverok or Jaheira!

Edited April 4, 2015 by gandalfrockman

[AgentTBC]

The companions are now perfectly serviceable on Hard difficulty (except maybe for Grieving Mother).  PotD was always going to require making your own.

[sterrius]

For the 3 difficults (Easy -normal - hard) you dont need to change anything on the companions. Even if you get all with only 10 stats they are still more than enough to finish a game on hard. 

 

The problem was never if the character is good or bad to finish the game. 

It is if the character is good enough to keep up with the main char. Not to be just meatshield with the only function to take damage and buff you main char.  They need their time to shine and "save the battle" too. 

 

On 1.0 they where far from it.  Now with 1.3 they are almost there in my sight.   Maybe fixing the initial talents of some of them will fix it for good as attributes lose its importance as you get levels,

 

About them being able to go a POD run.   Im doing it right now with them, just barely!   They now have enough for you to go a companion rush and get everyone before lv4.  So i was able to "save" grieving mother from getting both whip talents. 

Pallegine unfortunaly even getting her at lv3, she starts at lv4 so she will have 1 extra lay on hands no matter what you do. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by sterrius

[HozzM]

The companions are now perfectly serviceable on Hard difficulty (except maybe for Grieving Mother).  PotD was always going to require making your own.

 

I think the companions were serviceable before the changes, on Hard.  Especially before the Mindblades nerf, Grieving Mother's terrible Attribute spends aside, she was my companion MVP.

 

I am surprised that the stat changes are not retroactive in existing games though.  Seems like they could have done something about that.

[falchen]

Sagani's pet stats: Might 10, Con 8, Dex 15, Per 15, Int 5, Res 12, dunno what they were before.

[Veevoir]

They were all 10s I believe. I do hope pets got atlethics though, they are all secretly fatigued all the time..

[Luckmann]

edit:  This is to Luckmann

 

You're all over the place;  Eder losing a couple points of intellect because a couple of his fighter abilities lose duration is breaking the character and a travesty but Durance gaining a couple points of intellect which increases the duration of basically every spell he has is breaking the character and a travesty.  I'm not sure you're looking at this fairly.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. These are both the same issue, and they're both a travesty. To me, you're repeating the issue twice and assigning it to two of the characters. That's not "all over the place", that's as consistent as can be.

 

The changes to Durance is good, from a min/max perspective, but still terrible that they feel that it had to be done at all, and it's still terrible because it screws with the character. The changes to Edèr are terrible not just because it shouldn't be necessary, and not just because it screws with the character, but also because it's actually a pretty bad change.

 

There are many layers to this level of incompetence. This isn't your average stupid. This is advanced stupid.

[Luckmann]

 

edit:  This is to Luckmann

 

You're all over the place;  Eder losing a couple points of intellect because a couple of his fighter abilities lose duration is breaking the character and a travesty but Durance gaining a couple points of intellect which increases the duration of basically every spell he has is breaking the character and a travesty.  I'm not sure you're looking at this fairly.

You're not reading his point right. Moving any stat points from character RP vision to satisfy their mechanical needs (Eder more tanky. Durance more aoe-y) is travesty against the RP.

 

Not said that I agree with it though, as for me the attribute distribution of companions is more of a testament to the fact their stats were set before attribute changes of post-v435, not because of RP only. So they do need minor tweaking. But some stuff should not be touched (eg. being Durance's 19 resolve which crucially ties to the way his character behaves).

From RP point I don't mind Eder losing some Int, he has his wisdom but in the end he is a bit of a half-wit farmboy.. Nor do I grieve after Durance losing some PER, not really what determined him as a person, being perceptive.

 

 

I disagree (obviously); Durance is actually quite perceptive, but he doesn't care for the arguments or merits (or de-merits) of the issues. He calls them as he sees them and is adamant as to the solution and direction. This might not be entirely true, at the end of the day, considering his clear crisis of faith, but it is how he presents himself and it is.. well.. his character.

 

The fact that he has problems dealing with these things is precisely because he's not an intellectual, he's a firebrand.

 

The same goes for Edér; he's not an academic, but he's clearly a person that does think a lot, and sometimes comes across almost as a philospher, wondering if it was all worth it, and considering what could've been, and so on. The exact thinking that Durance absolutely do not convey, at least not at first, and at least he has a harder time dealing with it.

 

The Attribute System should've been fixed, not the characters compromised.

[Odd Hermit]

Gah, managed to reach Pallegina @ level 3 but she still starts at level 4. Apparently there's no point in rushing some of them.

 

I think I'm going to wait until we can conveniently respec all of them ourselves somehow. PotD with all custom it is.

 

These middle of the road/generalist builds are just garbage. They're not flexible to build into anything you want, rather they prevent you from turning them into anything useful. Especially with the poor talent/ability choices.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Musluk]

I disagree - on anything but PoTD - you don't need to min/max. You can make them work and earn their keep. Middle of the road int hurts a bit on casters and I will never ever put GM in my group because lol those stats, but for an average normal run there's nothing wrong with the generalist choices for most people.

 

Of ourse, on PoTD you will want to minmax anyway so off to hiring adventurers we go.

[gandalfrockman]

UGh, ok my disunity install just broke and I don't feel like fixing it right now.  (That thing is shaky as hell right now) .  

I Guess Ill be using all prebuilts for this playthrough.  

  

Hopefully The next patch continues to uncrapify the NPC's.  

If it doesn't I'll revisit this.