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People claiming that monk fist weapons does not do well in end game should be reminded that monks can equip weapons like everyone else.

they don't need to be reminded.  most is aware o' that fact.  the problem is that while a monk fist is the equal (equal enough) o' any other endgame weapon with nothing save vanilla enchantments, the fist is not capable o' bearing the other enchantments any endgame player will have added to his spear or pike or whatever.  

 

sensuki wanted tattoos to go in the fist slot for monks.  am not a fan o' tattoos ourself.  prayer beads would be our suggestion as every major rl religion seems to have a variation o' prayer beads, and unlike tattoos, they ain't permanent. beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.  regardless, the goal were to make something that could be added to unarmed that could also be enchanted.  

 

aside:  the addition o' monk gloves for 1.05 do not much appeal to us.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.

 

 

Oh wow, an atheist monk? What else comes on your mind after a dose of svef? Steel water? Maybe it was an atheist baked like a monk after self-immolation.. interesting..

 

 

(Speaking of which, I bet that some of the designers smoke weed.)

Edited by The Josip

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Min/maxing isn't really necessary on a monk, if you dump perception or resolve you'll have bad saves and deflection, if you dump intelligence you'll only be able to dps with a torments reach that hits one guy.  I wouldn't of gone with 12 intelligence, but that's just me.  I think you could make a dangerous implements glass cannon that is really min maxed, but most monks have to spend some time on the front lines so being a glass cannon makes them a liability.

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Min/maxing isn't really necessary on a monk, if you dump perception or resolve you'll have bad saves and deflection,

 

No. You don't have bad saves because the game doesn't work like that. It's impossible to have bad saves in this game because every stat saves something, or more precisely, two saves. Yea, you lose Will if you min Resolve, but you max Int so it's still the same as if it would be if you kept these stats on equal level. Not only that, but mediocre saves are not going to do much in tough battes, or won't do anything at all, so two mediocre saves actually translate to none, while one maxed actually means something.

 

That whole "saves" thing is a myth, along with deflection, and if I managed to notice that in 2 weeks of gameplay I'm very sceptical towards all the veterans of the game who are active on the forum for years and still didn't notice that in a tough battle that actually matters mediocre deflection results in 0-1 total misses by all the enemies combined. In other words, it's absolutely useless.

 

 

So just like in every other game I played I have to rely on my own skill and knowledge and testing and observation because as usual there are few people who get the game and the rest just generates noise and disinformation. A bit harsh, but I'm really tired of playing the game and seeing how almost everything I test goes contrary to what people are saying in the forum.

Edited by The Josip

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Huh my monk at the end of the game has 95 deflection without a shield which I don't really consider mediocre.  If i thought deflection was useless, dumped perception and/or resolve, didn't take duality of mortal presence and superior deflection, didn't use a ring of deflection, well my monks deflection could easily be around 55-60 instead.  Crits would be rocking her world and she'd be a major liability to the team.

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Fair enough but in that case you're still trying to max in a way, with talents and items. I can't test your results vs tough enemies as I don't have such character but from what I saw if someone doesn't develop it further it's better not to do it at all. Besides, was it you who said something about playing solo? If yes, then I don't really want to comment on that as solo may have some rules that don't apply to builds that are part of the group.

 

My point is that something's gotta give, and I enjoy playing for something, rather than trying to be a jack of all trades. It's not as fulfilling nor does it seem so effective to me. My deflection will be lower, sure, but unless crits become a serious issue I'm not overly concerned as I intend to compensate low deflection with 16 sec duration FoA spam from 6 characters (24 if crit!). I know it's not gonna be possible to FoA every enemy but I want to give it a go.

Edited by The Josip

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Nah I haven't done any solo runs, though 95 deflection is more than enough against almost all enemies on hard.  And honestly I don't take superior deflection until level 12 because some enemies through midgame will have a hard time hitting you which sucks, at least with duality of mortal presence you can choose if you want the deflection bonus.  I can see why some people like to min/max, and the more experienced you are with the game the more you can get away with lower scores in certain defenses, it's just not something I prefer to do myself.   I once played up to level 8 or 9 once with a character that I had dumped intelligence on and kept base resolve, and I was getting crit by dominates for like 35 seconds, but with balanced defenses that's never happened.

 

I've finished the game with 16-12-16-10-8-16 and 18-10-16-10-10-14 and felt like both of them were better than the few times I tried to min/max, though maybe I didn't really go about min/maxing correctly.  I honestly believe that non min/maxed characters are just as good as min/maxed characters because they don't have self created weaknesses, but "believing" something is true isn't the same as it being true.

 

Anyways my original point was just that I don't think min/maxing is or should be a qualifier on whether or not someone is an experienced player. 

Edited by Climhazzard

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That whole "saves" thing is a myth, along with deflection, and if I managed to notice that in 2 weeks of gameplay I'm very sceptical towards all the veterans of the game who are active on the forum for years and still didn't notice that in a tough battle that actually matters mediocre deflection results in 0-1 total misses by all the enemies combined. In other words, it's absolutely useless.

 

 

 

I do think you're overlooking the non-binary nature of defenses in the game.  It's not just a question of hit or miss. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that when you were doing your 0-1 total miss fights you weren't counting grazes that should have been hits or hits that should have been crits. Because everything--including debuff durations--operates on the miss/graze/hit/crit mechanic, those are at least somewhat important concerns when you're testing defensive stats.

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beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.

 

 

Oh wow, an atheist monk? What else comes on your mind after a dose of svef? Steel water? Maybe it was an atheist baked like a monk after self-immolation.. interesting..

 

 

(Speaking of which, I bet that some of the designers smoke weed.)

 

faith without the possibility o' doubt is pointless. am suspecting that more than a few monks has had uncertain faith and ultimately decided their god did not exist or were not listening.  

 

*shrug*

 

your lack o' imagination is disturbing given that this is a message board for a fantasy role-play game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.

 

 

Oh wow, an atheist monk? What else comes on your mind after a dose of svef? Steel water? Maybe it was an atheist baked like a monk after self-immolation.. interesting..

 

 

(Speaking of which, I bet that some of the designers smoke weed.)

 

faith without the possibility o' doubt is pointless. am suspecting that more than a few monks has had uncertain faith and ultimately decided their god did not exist or were not listening.  

 

*shrug*

 

your lack o' imagination is disturbing given that this is a message board for a fantasy role-play game.

Also keep in mind Buddhist monks have no conflict due to their atheism.

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Nah I haven't done any solo runs, though 95 deflection is more than enough against almost all enemies on hard.  And honestly I don't take superior deflection until level 12 because some enemies through midgame will have a hard time hitting you which sucks, at least with duality of mortal presence you can choose if you want the deflection bonus.  I can see why some people like to min/max, and the more experienced you are with the game the more you can get away with lower scores in certain defenses, it's just not something I prefer to do myself.   I once played up to level 8 or 9 once with a character that I had dumped intelligence on and kept base resolve, and I was getting crit by dominates for like 35 seconds, but with balanced defenses that's never happened.

 

I've finished the game with 16-12-16-10-8-16 and 18-10-16-10-10-14 and felt like both of them were better than the few times I tried to min/max, though maybe I didn't really go about min/maxing correctly.  I honestly believe that non min/maxed characters are just as good as min/maxed characters because they don't have self created weaknesses, but "believing" something is true isn't the same as it being true.

 

Anyways my original point was just that I don't think min/maxing is or should be a qualifier on whether or not someone is an experienced player. 

 

 

With your high deflection, 95+, does that not limit the amount and rate of wounds that you gain? Less wounds = less FoA and Torments, so less offense.

 

A crit would just get you more wounds faster right? Or is it the attached debuff/status effect that you are trying to avoid critting you?

 

Curious about a high deflection monk, from what I understand from a small amount of game play and from the forum is that big con gets you a larger pool to draw from and that you convert your wounds to damage either AoE style with high intellect or more single target focused with low intellect. A high deflection would keep you from getting wounds, right?

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Nah I haven't done any solo runs, though 95 deflection is more than enough against almost all enemies on hard.  And honestly I don't take superior deflection until level 12 because some enemies through midgame will have a hard time hitting you which sucks, at least with duality of mortal presence you can choose if you want the deflection bonus.  I can see why some people like to min/max, and the more experienced you are with the game the more you can get away with lower scores in certain defenses, it's just not something I prefer to do myself.   I once played up to level 8 or 9 once with a character that I had dumped intelligence on and kept base resolve, and I was getting crit by dominates for like 35 seconds, but with balanced defenses that's never happened.

 

I've finished the game with 16-12-16-10-8-16 and 18-10-16-10-10-14 and felt like both of them were better than the few times I tried to min/max, though maybe I didn't really go about min/maxing correctly.  I honestly believe that non min/maxed characters are just as good as min/maxed characters because they don't have self created weaknesses, but "believing" something is true isn't the same as it being true.

 

Anyways my original point was just that I don't think min/maxing is or should be a qualifier on whether or not someone is an experienced player. 

 

 

With your high deflection, 95+, does that not limit the amount and rate of wounds that you gain? Less wounds = less FoA and Torments, so less offense.

 

A crit would just get you more wounds faster right? Or is it the attached debuff/status effect that you are trying to avoid critting you?

 

Curious about a high deflection monk, from what I understand from a small amount of game play and from the forum is that big con gets you a larger pool to draw from and that you convert your wounds to damage either AoE style with high intellect or more single target focused with low intellect. A high deflection would keep you from getting wounds, right?

 

 

 

It doesn't really get that high until the end of the game, it does limit the amount of wounds you receive, but against endgame opponents it just makes the rate you receive wounds controllable.  I can always take off the ring of deflection if I don't need it, and I don't take superior deflection until level 12 so that my deflection doesn't get to high through the mid levels, but duality of mortal presence is a really good skill to take at any time because you can choose to turn it off or set it to "other defenses".  I also tend to wear next to no armor so that the hits that get through my deflection give me enough wounds, but then I have the option of having a decent deflection and a decent DR for very hard fights so i think it works out well.  

 

I've played with more constitution instead and it felt basically the same, the differences are definitely minor, but i kind of like having resolve if I'm going to use average speed or slower weapons, so that my attacks aren't interrupted a lot.  And my saving throws are more balanced so that I'm not getting crit by domination spells.  

 

The one thing that might persuade me to start making my monks more constitution based are those "shod-in-faith' boots.  They synergize  extremely well with monks, but you have to get crit for them to activate.  Once you do though you have some major healing to keep you going through all the incoming damage.  I had a few situations though where my health would get low without ever getting crit because my deflection was a bit to high, so the boots might be a bit more useful if you don't have as much deflection.

 

It should also be noted that i sometimes purposely use friendly fire to generate wounds faster, fireball for example is really good for this since it doesn't have impressive damage but it casts fast.  I don't mind using something harder hitting like fan of flames for this purpose either, because doing so softens up my opponents quite a bit.  It helps a monk get around the limitation of needing to be hit by enemies to generate wounds.

Edited by Climhazzard

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I do think you're overlooking the non-binary nature of defenses in the game.  It's not just a question of hit or miss. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that when you were doing your 0-1 total miss fights you weren't counting grazes that should have been hits or hits that should have been crits. Because everything--including debuff durations--operates on the miss/graze/hit/crit mechanic, those are at least somewhat important concerns when you're testing defensive stats.

 

 

That's true, but then again have you tested it? As in, how many more crits over normal hits you get in tough fights (not against normal mobs). I'm going to assume 'no' here and that's my problem. I accept test data, like when that guy did dps on fists vs other weapons on unarmored target (although I'd prefer he did it on armored). That's something that helps. The rest really does not, because I'm supposed to spend 12-16 points on "maybe not getting a crit" "unknown number of times per swing" "in theory".

 

And considering how game works in theory it doesn't even matter because if you're decreasing one type of defense you're increasing another. So maybe I have higher Reflex or Will, at the cost of the same amount of Deflection, but - since I'm also gaining a huge amount of utility it pays off, which is again at the cost of something - in this case interrupting the enemy plus being interrupted myself. But - since I don't need interrupts due to FoA which is a much better interrupt on enemies it works on, and, since I attack fast and tough enemies attack slower - in theory I'm at a huge win which my quick few tests show.

 

 

I am constantly changing my opinion and optimizing, but I need to be faced with the ingame circumstances that will force me to adjust, or a convincing forum data/calculations/tests. And just to repeat - I always keep in mind my own team build; I am never talking about what would work better for someone else.

 

 

Also keep in mind Buddhist monks have no conflict due to their atheism.

 

Buddhist monks are not atheists and neither was Buddha.

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Also keep in mind Buddhist monks have no conflict due to their atheism.

 

Buddhist monks are not atheists and neither was Buddha.

Theism and religion are not conceptually interchangeable.

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So this happened today.  It's sort of a normally never happens situation, because petrify, lol, and 10 wounds that I got from who knows what. (the log doesn't show much that I could see)  But now I'll never be able to convince myself not to take turning wheel even though I usually try to spend all my wounds....  almost 50 burn damage, not even a crit.  :p

 

IFxj4kX.jpg

Edited by Climhazzard
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Lash damage (weapon enchants, paladin's flames of devotion, monk's turning wheel, torments reach, lightning strike, etc ) is percent of physical damage inflicted (that means it multiplies the additive sum of damage modifiers (might, sneak attack, crit, savage attack,etc..) ) ..

 

Yes it can add a lot of damage when aiming for it ..


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Buddhist monks are not atheists and neither was Buddha.

the traditional buddhist doesn't believe in a god...

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I do think you're overlooking the non-binary nature of defenses in the game.  It's not just a question of hit or miss. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that when you were doing your 0-1 total miss fights you weren't counting grazes that should have been hits or hits that should have been crits. Because everything--including debuff durations--operates on the miss/graze/hit/crit mechanic, those are at least somewhat important concerns when you're testing defensive stats.

 

 

That's true, but then again have you tested it? As in, how many more crits over normal hits you get in tough fights (not against normal mobs). I'm going to assume 'no' here and that's my problem. I accept test data, like when that guy did dps on fists vs other weapons on unarmored target (although I'd prefer he did it on armored). That's something that helps. The rest really does not, because I'm supposed to spend 12-16 points on "maybe not getting a crit" "unknown number of times per swing" "in theory".

 

No, haven't tested it all.  I was just saying that if you were going to test it, attention should also be paid to the hit->graze, crit->hit before saying mediocre defenses are absolutely useless. I didn't say and didn't intend to suggest that I believe mediocre defenses are good/useful.  They may very well be absolutely useless, but you'd need to look at the full spectrum of what defenses actually do in order to come to that conclusion.

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Did anyone try Clarity of Agony? Need feedback on that skill. Are 6 melee characters going to run into perma stun? I don't want to lose ironman party because of some stupid OP AoE that enemy keeps recasting so I can never move, much like the Spider Queen when I needed to switch to ranged weapons which thankfully I decided to keep.

 

And if I should take it, when? At level 5 I need to choose between Swift Strikes and Clarity of Agony. At level 7 I take Rooting Pain and neither of the previous two. At level 9 I'll have to choose between Flagellants, Swift, and Clarity. Level 11 the same. Unless something else turns out to be better. But to be honest I don't seem to have problem with damage or survival at this point, but mostly enemy abilities that cripple crowded melee party in various ways.

 

 

No, haven't tested it all.  I was just saying that if you were going to test it, attention should also be paid to the hit->graze, crit->hit before saying mediocre defenses are absolutely useless. I didn't say and didn't intend to suggest that I believe mediocre defenses are good/useful.  They may very well be absolutely useless, but you'd need to look at the full spectrum of what defenses actually do in order to come to that conclusion.

 

Meanwhile.. :)

 

I'm at level 5 now. Didn't notice any significant increase in crits. When they happen I check it out, and then I see stuff like "roll 90" or "roll 87". That's fair enough.

 

I also decided to give nice heavy armor to my monks. Not plate because it's ugly (never liked it anywhere), but nice mail, scale and brigandine. I'm obviously not going for 100% optimized party anyway; I like to do it with style. Anyway, although I was at first sceptical about this it turned out to be good. Enemy still dies fast, but now I'm able to micro more easily with less pause, since attacks are slightly slower, and since I'm getting hit less in the first place. Life signs are more stable now and health rarely drops much, and if it does usually on just one character that gets focused at.

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No one posted their experience on Clarity of Agony so I'll do it now that I've tested it a bit. It seems like a very situational skill that's probably useful in only a few fights in the entire game, but when playing Ironman one permastun battle is enough to lose. To be fair, it's theoretically useful in many battles but being a per-rest ability means it has to be saved for boss encounters or when things go wrong.

 

I found ideal situation in order not to take this on all 6 monks. One monk gets this ability + scroll that does the same. In time of need I can activate Clarity of Agony just on this monk, and then he casts the scroll for the benefit of the entire party. In worse case scenario this monk could be the first to die but I think it's pointless to plan for all the contingencies.

 

One thing that's great about Clarity of Agony and that I wanted to test to be sure, is that it can still be used while under those deadly conditions it's meant to protect against. Pre-buffing is thus not needed.

 

---

 

 

As for Swift Strikes ability I'm a little bit disappointed. It doesn't always activate when I press this ability. Gets tedious. Sometimes I press it on 4 party members only to find out that only 2 activated it. Then I check if the other two were interrupted but nope. In the end I spend half of the combat spamming Swift Strike on party members until it actually works. On top of that I'm not even sure if it just reduces recovery time or really affects attack speed (dual wield talent seems to only decrease recovery according to someone's test). Many swear by this ability but I'm on the edge of dumping it for something more fun like Stunning Blows (which should be a great counter for those Shadows etc, as it targets Fortitude).

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Swift strikes mechanics are indeed leaky .. Even with only 1 monk in party - the amount of micro it adds for questionable benefit is mind boggling ..

 

Should be modal - eat wound and reactivate when it expires as long as you have wounds available .. (done! - 500 clicks required need eliminated from fight ) .. Or they could troll and make it last 1 second :)  (We've heard you like to micro - the faster your apm the bigger the DPS of your monk in our RPG)..

 

Will try to discipline myself to press "x"  to clear INVISIBLE ACTION QUE AI LIKES TO PUT GRATUITOUS **** INTO before issuing activation order to see if it responds better ..

Edited by peddroelm

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Indeed, I realized with SS on all the monks I spend most of the time watching their icons instead of enjoying watching the combat, selecting one monk with the most wounds and spamming Torment's Reach or FoA. My SS ability lasts long because of high Int but even so I noticed a huge drop in fun but not noticeable increase in killing speed.

 

In fact, the more I play the more it seems that utility skills are the real gamechanger, and most damage increase options are not. Either because the bonus is too small to matter, or because they're bugged.

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They could make it like rooting wounds or whatever its name is - full passive - trigger/refresh duration of lighting wounds each time a wound is gained - slight buff since it doesn't spend wounds anymore - monumental gain in gameplay value ..


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I also found that heavier armor greatly enhanced my hireling monk's survivability. Up to level 3/4 on PotD with Pirate melee rogue, two hand fighter, tanky chanter, cipher, Durance and monk. Best I had for a long time was leather for him, got him mail and it helped a bunch. Even switched sometimes to fist & shield for the extra deflection.

 

Due to the party make up the monk can't be a skirmisher, he is on the line next to the sword & board chanter and the fighter. Each level up is a huge boon to the monk as his high con adds a lot of endurance, can't wait for the first fist upgrade level. The monk is leader in KOs and in 2nd place behind the rogue for damage. When he does not get wounds he still puts out good damage via two fists of fury, wounds just mean he lets loose with the torments and the FoA (which has to be one of the coolest abilities in the game. Knock someone across the screen and keep them prone for ten seconds? yes please :) )

 

 

 

P.S. Does one hand style work with fist and shield? I've read that with a weapon and shield that the single weapon talent works, as in it is not an either/or as far as shields go.

 

Does weapon and shield style work with fist and shield?

Edited by KDubya

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