Does race and gender matter?

[Valmy]

 

 

Which is a voice of concern regarding the Legion in general, not Legion in regards to women.

 

 

Yeah that is what I was getting at. If you are a female character who believes that military might and that way of thinking are the key to bringing order to the wasteland than maybe you could justify whatever. Pretty much the same way a male character might decide Caesar's Legion is right. But that might not be a very enjoyable character to play.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Valmy

[sparklecat]

 

There are women joining the ISIS, so I'd say that reflects a lack of imagination on your part rather than anything wrong with the game.

 

Well he did say enjoyable character.

 

Exactly.

 

eta: regarding the whole "ends justify the means" argument, sure, I could come up with a character who thought that way.  But I like to imagine my characters get at least a somewhat happy ending, and I don't really see Caesar's favour lasting past her help securing the victory at the Dam.  The existence of a competent, trusted woman in a leadership position for the Legion would be a threat to their power structure, and one "exceptional" individual is more likely to wind up meeting with a messy death if she doesn't fall in line and agree that Caesar knows best on this matter, not end up spearheading some social revolution.

Edited March 25, 2015 by sparklecat

[PrimeJunta]

Do all endings have to be happy?

 

IMO no. In fact I think it's extremely cool if some of them aren't. It makes the happy ones actually mean something.

[Longknife]

 

 

There are women joining the ISIS, so I'd say that reflects a lack of imagination on your part rather than anything wrong with the game.

 

Well he did say enjoyable character.

 

Exactly.

 

eta: regarding the whole "ends justify the means" argument, sure, I could come up with a character who thought that way.  But I like to imagine my characters get at least a somewhat happy ending, and I don't really see Caesar's favour lasting past her help securing the victory at the Dam.  The existence of a competent, trusted woman in a leadership position for the Legion would be a threat to their power structure, and one "exceptional" individual is more likely to wind up meeting with a messy death if she doesn't fall in line and agree that Caesar knows best on this matter, not end up spearheading some social revolution.

 

 

Then this is a complaint about Caesar's Legion, not about women and Caesar's Legion.

 

 

As for the idea she would meet a "messy death," I think you thoroughly misunderstand Caesar. The Legion you see now is not the Legion Caesar ultimately wants. What the Legion is now is a productive army designed and built to be as effective as humanly possible for the sake of winning at all costs so he's free to rule as a supreme dictator once the dust of war settles. Caesar isn't and never has been sexist. Women are forbidden from serving in the military only because they're more valuable and productive as mothers. The moment the Legion settles down, this structure is no longer warranted to the degree it is now. There is no "she threatens the power structure," it's "hey idiots, I never said women were inferior to begin with. You just took their position as slaves the wrong way." And guess what, he's mother ****ing Caesar, so they'll listen.

[sparklecat]

Do all endings have to be happy?

 

IMO no. In fact I think it's extremely cool if some of them aren't. It makes the happy ones actually mean something.

Happy, no, but I don't like them immensely depressing, which is the only ending I can see for a woman in the Legion, Longknife's optimism notwithstanding.  Plus playing a woman who's walking past legionaries at the Fort who are coming out with creepy comments about how attractive some of the new slaves are... her ignoring that and continuing to support the Legion just feels borderline sociopathic.

 

If you all feel differently, that's fine; this is just some feedback from one female fan who informally polled a few of her friends and found the same - that we just weren't able to really get into a Legion playthrough because we found the misogyny too off-putting for one reason or another.

[Longknife]

 

Do all endings have to be happy?

 

IMO no. In fact I think it's extremely cool if some of them aren't. It makes the happy ones actually mean something.

Happy, no, but I don't like them immensely depressing, which is the only ending I can see for a woman in the Legion, Longknife's optimism notwithstanding.  Plus playing a woman who's walking past legionaries at the Fort who are coming out with creepy comments about how attractive some of the new slaves are... her ignoring that and continuing to support the Legion just feels borderline sociopathic.

 

If you all feel differently, that's fine; this is just some feedback from one female fan who informally polled a few of her friends and found the same - that we just weren't able to really get into a Legion playthrough because we found the misogyny too off-putting for one reason or another.

 

 

 

It's a roleplaying game.

 

I do not like the Brotherhood of Steel. Second most fun playthrough I've ever had? A hardline conservative Brotherhood Paladin.

A consistently fun playthrough I often return to? Pure Legion playthrough, AKA no chems and absolute Legion loyalty.

 

 

 

I don't see how this is a failure of the Legion but rather you and factions you morally disagree with simply not mixing. I suggested that a woman with no regard for the other women of the Legion could be perfectly happy in the Legion, and this is true. Absolutely objectively true. You cannot seem to enjoy such a playthrough though, and that's fine. I mean you're not EXPECTED to and it's not like you're playing the game "wrong" for not being able to. It'd be stupid and unfair to claim you're playing it wrong.

 

But it would also be unfair to say Caesar's Legion is wrong because it caters to a character type and playstyle that you yourself get no gratification out of. I also assure you that the game provides far more evidence and support for my rendition of "Caesar is not sexist, he merely wants a productive nation and that requires pregnant women which are terrible at combat" rather than your "he's going to kill you off because for some reason the Almighty Caesar would be killed by his own men or lose control of his entire nation if he supported a woman and said anyone who thought women are inferior misunderstood his leadership." I mean ffs the ending itself says a female Courier would get a coin minted in her honor; kind of a weird little act of gratification for someone he plans on killing off, no?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Longknife

[ashtonw]

 

Do all endings have to be happy?

 

IMO no. In fact I think it's extremely cool if some of them aren't. It makes the happy ones actually mean something.

Happy, no, but I don't like them immensely depressing, which is the only ending I can see for a woman in the Legion, Longknife's optimism notwithstanding.  Plus playing a woman who's walking past legionaries at the Fort who are coming out with creepy comments about how attractive some of the new slaves are... her ignoring that and continuing to support the Legion just feels borderline sociopathic.

 

If you all feel differently, that's fine; this is just some feedback from one female fan who informally polled a few of her friends and found the same - that we just weren't able to really get into a Legion playthrough because we found the misogyny too off-putting for one reason or another.

 

 

Uh I think a male character who sides with the legion would also have to be sociopathic. The legion are straight up monsters.

 

I mean what kind of person would walk through Nipton and think "yeah these guys have the right idea."

Edited March 25, 2015 by ashtonw

[RedSocialKnight]

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical

 

What about the specifically anti-female homophobia of the Legion described by Veronica in her companion dialogues is "logical"?

 

Even granting your assumption that women are ("logically") viewed as breeding machines in service of the Legion's war effort (And -- is that actually logical? Would having tons of babies actually be a great thing for a tribe mobilizing for war in a water-poor, food-poor region?), there is no rational benefit to prohibiting relationships between women, which can easily flourish alongside enforced pregnancy.

 

The only reason for it is the sadly typical desire to police and limit female sexuality just for the sake of asserting control.

[sparklecat]

 

 

Do all endings have to be happy?

 

IMO no. In fact I think it's extremely cool if some of them aren't. It makes the happy ones actually mean something.

Happy, no, but I don't like them immensely depressing, which is the only ending I can see for a woman in the Legion, Longknife's optimism notwithstanding.  Plus playing a woman who's walking past legionaries at the Fort who are coming out with creepy comments about how attractive some of the new slaves are... her ignoring that and continuing to support the Legion just feels borderline sociopathic.

 

If you all feel differently, that's fine; this is just some feedback from one female fan who informally polled a few of her friends and found the same - that we just weren't able to really get into a Legion playthrough because we found the misogyny too off-putting for one reason or another.

 

 

Uh I think a male character who sides with the legion would also have to be sociopathic. The legion are straight up monsters.

 

I mean what kind of person would walk through Nipton and think "yeah these guys have the right idea."

 

I do definitely think that the misogyny is just one part of a larger problem that makes it hard to play sympathetic characters who side with the Legion, but I think it's a greater problem for female characters.  It's easier in some ways to brush aside atrocities committed against people you don't tend to automatically empathise with, which means I could see a male "ends justify the means" character supporting them more easily; men who serve the Legion, going by the group's history, can attain glory and honour, and a man could convince himself that he'll be one of those because he's simply more worthy than those who fail or whatever.  Deluded, maybe, and justifying some pretty horrible behaviour, but not what I'd consider sociopathic as I would failing to identify with the enslaved women in the Legion camp as a female character.

[Longknife]

 

The thing about the Legion is the misogyny is logical

 

What about the specifically anti-female homophobia of the Legion described by Veronica in her companion dialogues is "logical"?

 

Even granting your assumption that women are ("logically") viewed as breeding machines in service of the Legion's war effort (And -- is that actually logical? Would having tons of babies actually be a great thing for a tribe mobilizing for war in a water-poor, food-poor region?), there is no rational benefit to prohibiting relationships between women, which can easily flourish alongside enforced pregnancy.

 

The only reason for it is the sadly typical desire to police and limit female sexuality just for the sake of asserting control.

 

 

 

A couple things:

 

1) I did not say misogyny does not exist within the Legion. I said it does not exist at the top and that the misogyny is an unintentional side effect. That random Legion Recruit is going to call you a worthless woman, Caesar is not. Your mere presence as a pivotal part of the Mojave campaign means you single-handedly have a chance of existing as a testament to the fact that Caesar is not a misogynist, and as such, you have an opportunity to do away with the misogyny of the average Legionaire.

 

2) Caesar has issues with greed and corruption. How does he plan on solving the rampant greed and self-interested idealogies present within the human race? Well for one, he wants to wipe the slate clean and be it's revered dictator with absolute control so that he can teach people to value the community over the self. That demands an army. Second is the question of how to teach his ideology even after he's won. The answer?

 

Indoctrination.

 

Caesar wants to indoctrinate his Legion so that they'd never think twice about being selfish rather than doing whatever they can to serve the community as best they can. And you know who's REALLY, really susceptible to indoctrination?

 

Little kids.

 

This is why Caesar values children so much. It's because to him, this generation of Legionaires is all fine and good, but the children are going to be the first real generation that was fully indoctrinated and grew up in the Legion. He needs them to provide his nation with a future, as well as a future fighting force. Children are essential as they provide everything he could possibly want, from economic strength to military might to loyal subjects. Though all of this is long-term and more planning for the future, of course. You may wonder why Caesar doesn't calm down the childbirth and just have all men and women serve? Well two problems arise, those being 1) what the HELL happens to the future of the Legion and 2) who would be responsible for the supportive roles that are equally as neccesary as the militant ones? Women adopt these due to convenience, because they CAN simultaneously give birth and manage such roles.

 

 

3) Gay sex within the Legion is again another unwanted side effect. The Legion, just like the Brotherhood, stresses the importance of procreation. The difference? The Brotherhood is small and manageable, the Legion is not. If there's a lesbian in a Brotherhood chapter, everyone will know. If there's a gay officer or two on a warfront in the Legion in the middle of a war? Well one it might be easy to hide, and two, is yelling at them really THAT important in the grand scheme of things? You could even presume it's merely a result of them not seeing women in ages, not blatant overt homosexuality coupled with a lack of desire to procreate with women when the opportunity arises. The females of the Legion are not so lucky, as they're in a more supervised area and more strictly watched. This is the same exact reason why for example you'll see Silus escape from the Legion but you don't encounter a female slave who escapes: Silus is on the front lines and thus has better opportunities to abandon the Legion. Sure enough though, they want Silus' head on a pike for what he did.  I don't believe the Legion is supportive of chems or cannibalism either, in principle, and yet Hydra supposedly stems from the Legion and evidence suggests some Legionaires are cannibals, while the White Gloves, the Great Khans and the Fiends both receive "alliances" so long as it serves the Legion's interests and war efforts. Why? Because being morally strict and fighting with these groups over their cannibalism and chem use isn't productive and doesn't help the war effort, and everything - EVERYTHING - banks on the Legion succeeding so that Caesar can have absolute control of the region; it's all moves made for the greater good, in the eyes of the Legion.

   But I digress. The point is I don't think Caesar or other high up officers would be too pleased to know about gay legionaires if they believed it got in the way of actual procreation. In cases where the Legionaire is bisexual...? I honestly don't think they'd care as long as babies are being made. This just ends up being low down on the priority list because they're in the midst of a war, and cross-examining ever Legionaire with homosexual tendencies and evaluating where exactly they stand on the gay spectrum isn't exactly productive.

 

 

 

Ultimately, again what's being highlighted are flaws within the Legion itself, not so much Legion gender relations at it's core (aka at Caesar). Caesar has no interest or motivation to oppress women, but people misconstrue what they're seeing and think the Almighty Caesar views women as inferior, thus they start thinking so themselves.

 

  The complaints you've voiced amount moreso to "Caesar is a fool if he thinks he can influence human nature at all times," and sure enough these are examples that his plan and methods are pretty flawed and he can't feasibly be everywhere at once or influence the thinking process of every human being.

 

But the debate was essentially "you cannot logically provide a female Courier with a reason to support the Legion." This is simply untrue. There is no reason that a female Courier cannot draw the same conclusions I've drawn, agree with Caesar's methods and believe that her service to the Legion could actually do some good in tearing down the misogyny that exists amongst the common Legionaire.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Longknife

[sparklecat]

I suggested that a woman with no regard for the other women of the Legion could be perfectly happy in the Legion...

Yes.  Hence the sociopathic label.  Fundamentally lacking in empathy.  I've got nothing against people wanting to play villains; it can be fun, sure.  You're right that my personal enjoyment is a part of what's being reflected here, and I don't find the Legion at all enjoyable or sympathetic, but I still also maintain that a woman who sided with the Legion would also have to be fundamentally lacking in sense.

 

But it would also be unfair to say Caesar's Legion is wrong because it caters to a character type and playstyle that you yourself get no gratification out of. I also assure you that the game provides far more evidence and support for my rendition of "Caesar is not sexist, he merely wants a productive nation and that requires pregnant women which are terrible at combat" rather than your "he's going to kill you off because for some reason the Almighty Caesar would be killed by his own men or lose control of his entire nation if he supported a woman and said anyone who thought women are inferior misunderstood his leadership." I mean ffs the ending itself says a female Courier would get a coin minted in her honor; kind of a weird little act of gratification for someone he plans on killing off, no?

I wouldn't know, I've never managed to make it past my first vist to the Fort on an attempted Legion game!  I can only judge based on what I encountered, and everything I encountered suggested to me that the vast majority of women (and, yes, a significant number of men) would run screaming in the other direction/whip out their sniper rifle.  It doesn't really matter what Caesar's true personal opinions on the matter are; it's the impressions that the characters would get that are important in a roleplaying context.

[Fredward]

I've never completed a legion playthrough either and I'm a dude. You (or your character) would either have to be borderline psychopathic to be okay with it or have a ends-justify-the-means pragmatism like Longknife talked about. Honestly it seems to me that if something only becomes objectionable, or if it becomes EXTRA objectionable, just because it suddenly encompasses a group that's closer to home... that seems like a weird kind of selfishness. A sort of myopia. Only objecting when something starts infringing on your own personal bubble. Now mind you, rationally I can understand that it would be easier to inhabit the headspace of such an individual because it's really quite common but if the objection is primarily moral then I can't see it. Someone who chooses not to see a problem because he doesn't affect him directly and doesn't do anything about it isn't more moral than the person who DOES see it and still chooses to do nothing.

[Longknife]

 

I suggested that a woman with no regard for the other women of the Legion could be perfectly happy in the Legion...

Yes.  Hence the sociopathic label.  Fundamentally lacking in empathy.  I've got nothing against people wanting to play villains; it can be fun, sure.  You're right that my personal enjoyment is a part of what's being reflected here, and I don't find the Legion at all enjoyable or sympathetic, but I still also maintain that a woman who sided with the Legion would also have to be fundamentally lacking in sense.

 

But it would also be unfair to say Caesar's Legion is wrong because it caters to a character type and playstyle that you yourself get no gratification out of. I also assure you that the game provides far more evidence and support for my rendition of "Caesar is not sexist, he merely wants a productive nation and that requires pregnant women which are terrible at combat" rather than your "he's going to kill you off because for some reason the Almighty Caesar would be killed by his own men or lose control of his entire nation if he supported a woman and said anyone who thought women are inferior misunderstood his leadership." I mean ffs the ending itself says a female Courier would get a coin minted in her honor; kind of a weird little act of gratification for someone he plans on killing off, no?

I wouldn't know, I've never managed to make it past my first vist to the Fort on an attempted Legion game!  I can only judge based on what I encountered, and everything I encountered suggested to me that the vast majority of women (and, yes, a significant number of men) would run screaming in the other direction/whip out their sniper rifle.  It doesn't really matter what Caesar's true personal opinions on the matter are; it's the impressions that the characters would get that are important in a roleplaying context.

 

 

 

1) I fail to understand how a female would be a sociopath but a male would not. You said it yourself, "fundamentally lacking in empathy." You're basically implying that I, as a man, cannot express empathy for the enslaved women and therefore cannot be held accountable as a sociopath when I do not. You're also failing to acknowledge that the men are slaves too. Nobody within the Legion really has a choice what they do. The women are slaves, the men are legionaires (with few exceptions for men who seem capable as slaves but not capable as soldiers). The women are forced to serve and treated like cattle, the men are stuck on the front lines with a dull machete and told they're to ambush an enemy squad or die trying. (and they mean it)

 

In that sense there should be empathy for all of them, and the previous guy's statement about how you'd need to be a sociopath to support them regardless of gender holds. (mind you, if someone wants to debate needing to be a sociopath to support the Legion, that's besides the point. The point was more that gender is a non-issue when it comes to deeming the Legion sociopaths or not.)

 

 

 

 

2) I've no idea how much you've spoken to Caesar, but he can come across as one of the most intelligent NPCs in the game. This dude is friggin' citing Hegel at you in a game, no joke. I'm not a Legion supporter by any means, but holy hell, did Caesar teach me to respect the Legion. The Legion gets **** done. The Legion has an honesty to it. (aside from their betrayal of allies, of course) The Legion did it's god damn homework and by god if you've got a job for them, they can and will get it done with enough heads and dedication. The Legion culture - for all it's obvious flaws - does believe in a greater good and doing things to help your people rather than focusing on yourself.

 

  There is absolutely nothing keeping someone like myself who holds such respect for the Legion from respecting them as a woman. I have a female friend I bought the game for, and she herself respected the Legion before she respected the NCR because they seemed more honest with her and weren't constantly being hypocritical in their actions. Mind you, neither she nor I actively support the Legion, but again what you're essentially arguing is that supporting the Legion while not being a sociopath (someone devoid of empathy) as a female would be impossible, and that's simply not true. There's a "for the greater good" element to the Legion where it's supporters acknowledge the atrocities it's commiting, but argue it's all neccesary to bring about a better future. There is no reason you can't find a woman who considers the hardships of the Legion to be the better alternative to the corruption and seemingly bleak future of the NCR, the uncertainty and disorganization of Indy, or the cold and heartless society that Mr. House would likely breed (or rather enable, since he doesn't encourage such behavior and merely does nothing to discourage it).

 

 

Again, I simply do not see how this is a gender issue. This is more a personal issue between you and the Legion. It's fine that you - as a woman - cannot support the Legion, but that does not mean it's impossible for every woman ever without the need for that woman to be a sociopath.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Longknife

[sparklecat]

I've never completed a legion playthrough either and I'm a dude. You (or your character) would either have to be borderline psychopathic to be okay with it or have a ends-justify-the-means pragmatism like Longknife talked about. Honestly it seems to me that if something only becomes objectionable, or if it becomes EXTRA objectionable, just because it suddenly encompasses a group that's closer to home... that seems like a weird kind of selfishness. A sort of myopia. Only objecting when something starts infringing on your own personal bubble. Now mind you, rationally I can understand that it would be easier to inhabit the headspace of such an individual because it's really quite common but if the objection is primarily moral then I can't see it. Someone who chooses not to see a problem because he doesn't affect him directly and doesn't do anything about it isn't more moral than the person who DOES see it and still chooses to do nothing.

 

It's not a primarily moral objection, no.  And myopia's a good word for it; I can play and enjoy a myopic, selfish, even downright evil character.  But not one who supports and joins her would-be oppressors, if that makes sense.

 

 

But I didn't really intend to get into some big debate on the subject; I was simply commenting/offering a bit of feedback about a problem I and a couple of friends had with getting into that part of the game.

[sparklecat]

 

Again, I simply do not see how this is a gender issue.

So I have gathered, yes.  As I just said in my previous post, though, I'm not really looking to get into a huge debate on the matter.