Press Release Version of Eder's, Aloth's, Kana's, & Durance's Attribute Spread

[Gromnir]

No idea why people think you must have a maxed Stealth AND Mechanics. You just need someone near the front with Mechanics to detect the traps before you walk into them (finding hidden loot doesn't need Stealth). Otherwise Stealth doesn't do anything but let you get close to enemies (and steal). 

 

You can have a stealthy trap disarming guy. Especially with items. You just cant be as good at both as someone who specializes in one.

even in the beta, there were at least 1 trap that were well-nigh impossible to disarm without initiating combat unless you were stealthy and had high mechanics.  needed extreme high mechanics and stealth. am gonna bet that there is gonna be more than a couple similar situations in the remainder o' the game.   

 

 "must have"

 

have a tank is not "must have" neither. nevertheless, we wouldn't wanna play poe without such.  have stealth and mechanics separate may be necessary, but (big picture) we got no idea why level one skills were made class-specific anymore than we understand the starting skill distributions (little picture).  story/character rationale?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shdy314]

Yeah I agree 1 situation in the beta hardly equals must have. A tank is not must have but you can use them throughout the entire game in every single fight.

 

Im sure there will be a few situations like that. So inititate combat and don't step on the trap. Disarm after. No one promised a pacifist playthrough.

 

If you want to stealth through the whole dungeon and disarm every trap obviously that should take serious investment on the player's part and maybe something only rogues should do easily. If a companion doesn't meet the role *shrug*. No doubt a rogue companion would have been as badly built as all the others. Probably would have a +2 lore background.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shdy314

[Kordanor]

 Probably would have a +2 lore background.

 

Reminds me of Ducky from the NCIS show...on finding a trap: "Oh, a trap in the sarcophagus. That reminds me of the invasion of the barbarians in the year 258 when some cunning chieftain...."

[Gromnir]

Yeah I agree 1 situation in the beta hardly equals must have. 

...

 

you do realize that you are misrepresenting us.  we noted that we expect considerable more such situations, particularly as much o' poe bb were wilderness.  

 

*shrug*

 

such stuff makes difficult to respond.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shdy314]

you do realize that you are misrepresenting us.  we noted that we expect considerable more such situations, particularly as much o' poe bb were wilderness.  

Yeah I agree 1 situation in the beta hardly equals must have. 

I know that's why I also said

Im sure there will be a few situations like that. So inititate combat and don't step on the trap. Disarm after. No one promised a pacifist playthrough.

 

The first line was just me being jocular. I wasn't misrepresenting.

 

I thought it was incredibly ridiculous to compare max stealth/mechanics to the usefulness of a tank. There would have to be a hell of a lot of such situations to compare to the ability to use a tank in every fight in the game. So I responded in an equal amount of jest.

 

You need not respond.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shdy314

[Gromnir]

 

you do realize that you are misrepresenting us.  we noted that we expect considerable more such situations, particularly as much o' poe bb were wilderness.  

Yeah I agree 1 situation in the beta hardly equals must have. 

I know that's why I also said

Im sure there will be a few situations like that. So inititate combat and don't step on the trap. Disarm after. No one promised a pacifist playthrough.

 

The first line was just me being jocular. I wasn't misrepresenting.

 

I thought it was incredibly ridiculous to compare max stealth/mechanics to the usefulness of a tank. There would have to be a hell of a lot of such situations to compare to the ability to use a tank in every fight in the game. So I responded in an equal amount of jest.

 

You need not respond.

 

but we will respond, 'cause it is equal stupid to suggest that we want a stealthy guy who can disarm traps because o' a single situation in the beta.  don't be so hypocritical.

 

and no, initiate combat with a trap that limits our movement is unnecessary if we can apply skills rationally... and we didn't take your advice serious 'cause you suggested disarming after we initiated combat.  hell, ain't no real reason to disarm after except for the degenerative gameplay josh criticizes.  ridiculous indeed.  

 

the stealthy guy who can disarm traps is not an unknown quality in crpgs.  poe is a crpg that boasts 'o customization options. the stealthy guy who can disarm traps clearly will have uses in poe.  with the joinable npcs, we will be unlikely to be able to create a stealthy guy who can disarm traps.  this should not be confusing.  

 

you don't need to respond... if is more o' the same.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[budyn]

You're using that phrase wrong.  An argument can be a strawman argument, but a person can't be a strawman.  Unless literally made of straw, at which point it is time to check to see if you're in Oz. 

thx i didnt even know what that means, but this guy kept saying that to everybody

[Voss]

No idea why people think you must have a maxed Stealth AND Mechanics. You just need someone near the front with Mechanics to detect the traps before you walk into them (finding hidden loot doesn't need Stealth). Otherwise Stealth doesn't do anything but let you get close to enemies (and steal).

Because having your scout blunder into traps is terrible, and having your trapsmith not be able to disarm traps in front of enemies makes encounters needlessly more difficult. 

 

The overlap on these two skills is huge and glaringly obvious, while the others don't really matter much.

[Guest]

Strawman = When Person A makes Argument X and then Person B asserts that Person A actually made Argument Y and proceeds to explain all the reasons why Argument Y is bad/evil/stupid (rather than address the actual argument).

 

Gets the name from the image of someone actually building a strawman and then attacking it.

[Diogenes]

You don't always need to be searching for traps when scouting or scouting when looking for traps.

[Voss]

You don't always need to be searching for traps when scouting or scouting when looking for traps.

Sure.  When they aren't there, it isn't a problem.  But without meta-knowledge, it is always a possibility, in which case both are required.

[Diogenes]

Traps are supposed to surprise you right? So you trigger one and then scramble to check around if there are any more? I only check for traps where I think they might be there otherwise, like suspiciously unguarded narrow hallways or treasure chests. You don't need scouting for that. If you are sneaking around and step in a trap then well done game, you got me good. You probably won't come across traps in the wild when scouting, just in dungeons so you don't need to worry about it then.

 

I think you are making a big deal of the importance of scouting and disabling traps, I'm guess it won't be mandatory because then you are forced into certain party makeups for certain areas. Unless you just want to make sure you are doing everything to the best of your ability and not make any mistakes then thats cool and your prerogative. Don't stress too much, thats all.

[Shdy314]

 

 

you do realize that you are misrepresenting us.  we noted that we expect considerable more such situations, particularly as much o' poe bb were wilderness.  

Yeah I agree 1 situation in the beta hardly equals must have. 

I know that's why I also said

Im sure there will be a few situations like that. So inititate combat and don't step on the trap. Disarm after. No one promised a pacifist playthrough.

 

The first line was just me being jocular. I wasn't misrepresenting.

 

I thought it was incredibly ridiculous to compare max stealth/mechanics to the usefulness of a tank. There would have to be a hell of a lot of such situations to compare to the ability to use a tank in every fight in the game. So I responded in an equal amount of jest.

 

You need not respond.

 

but we will respond, 'cause it is equal stupid to suggest that we want a stealthy guy who can disarm traps because o' a single situation in the beta.  don't be so hypocritical.

 

and no, initiate combat with a trap that limits our movement is unnecessary if we can apply skills rationally... and we didn't take your advice serious 'cause you suggested disarming after we initiated combat.  hell, ain't no real reason to disarm after except for the degenerative gameplay josh criticizes.  ridiculous indeed.  

 

the stealthy guy who can disarm traps is not an unknown quality in crpgs.  poe is a crpg that boasts 'o customization options. the stealthy guy who can disarm traps clearly will have uses in poe.  with the joinable npcs, we will be unlikely to be able to create a stealthy guy who can disarm traps.  this should not be confusing.  

 

you don't need to respond... if is more o' the same.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

For goodness sake I meant after combat. Not after starting combat. I don't even know if you can use the mechanics skill in combat.

Not once did I say you want it because of one situation in the beta. I understand you expect the situation to be very common in the full game. I said who cares if it is? I also said there's no way in hell it will be as common as using a tank. The only purpose is to ghost the dungeon and if you want to do that then make a rogue. The only way this is an issue is if you have an all melee party and a bunch of ranged enemies behind a trap.

 

I never disagreed the stealthy trap guy is a classic fantasy trope. Why do you think I ever said otherwise? You can make a stealthy trap guy either with the PC, companions or hired adventurers. The companions just wont be AS stealthy/mechanical as you might want. I agree it is too bad we can't customize them from level 1. Stats too for replayability if nothing else.

 

What I said was why do some people seem think it's going to be so important to have someone with 10 of each? You don't need that much stealth to scout and there could be checks for even higher. An NPC with a little stealth and very high mechanics can scout far enough in front of the party to make sure you dont blunder the party into anything. Even better is to have the whole party with a little stealth for positioning on enemies.

[Gromnir]

you misread.  surprise? no.  disarm after combat is also what Gromnir referenced.  disarm a floor trap after combat and it no longer poses any danger is pointless. only reason to do so is to get the infinitesimal xp boost-- degenerative gameplay.

 

and you complete miss the point by referencing the stealthy guy capable o' disarming traps as a trope.  am suspecting that word (trope) don't mean what you think it does, but our observation were not the ubiquitous presence o' such a character so much as the universal utility o' such a character. duh.  and coming up with explanations as to why we don't need a universal useful build is no different than pointing out that we don't need a tank and Gromnir offering numerous party builds that can be successful without a tank.  you find that ridiculous?  fine.  is similarly ridiculous to your identification o' how we can avoid using a useful character role in poe.    

 

there is no good reason for making the stealthy guy who can disarm traps functional impossible unless our main character fills that role... period. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 25, 2015 by Gromnir

[Voss]

Traps are supposed to surprise you right? So you trigger one and then scramble to check around if there are any more? I only check for traps where I think they might be there otherwise, like suspiciously unguarded narrow hallways or treasure chests. You don't need scouting for that. If you are sneaking around and step in a trap then well done game, you got me good. You probably won't come across traps in the wild when scouting, just in dungeons so you don't need to worry about it then.

 

I think you are making a big deal of the importance of scouting and disabling traps, I'm guess it won't be mandatory because then you are forced into certain party makeups for certain areas. Unless you just want to make sure you are doing everything to the best of your ability and not make any mistakes then thats cool and your prerogative. Don't stress too much, thats all.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  There is zero reason to wander around an unfamiliar wilderness or dungeon area without scouting, both for monsters and traps.  None.  Why would I want to be surprised by a trap?  I want to find them before they go off.   I don't need to stroke the game's ego by letting it 'get me' with a trap- that is only a negative. The game isn't a small child that needs positive reinforcement with minor psychological victories.

 

I also have no idea where your 'guess' comes from.  There will be traps.  There will be monsters.  Scout mode gives you an advantage over both. To defeat traps and ambush monsters, you must have points in stealth and points in mechanics.

[Diogenes]

You don't have to play completely optimally 100% of the time.

[Voss]

You don't have to play completely optimally 100% of the time.

Never said you did.  But I see no reason to play stupidly 'just because,' which is the only translation I can make of your posts.  There is no cost to scouting (and unlike IE games, you can sneak and check for traps simultaneously), ergo there is no reason not to.  On the other hand, there *Is* a cost to pointlessly setting off traps and wandering into fights unprepared.

 

I'm not sure why you keep arguing this at all. Logically, there is no reason not to scout.  Roleplaying wise (assuming your characters want to survive) there is no reason not to scout. I can see no reason to not scout outside of towns.  None.  It is the most obvious default behavior, 100% of the time, with absolutely no downside.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Voss

[Gromnir]

btw, we played through the beta with characters who got identical attributes to those listed in the genesis post. we added a rogue and a cipher to the group, although the rogue were hardly optimal as it is likely one o' our first-play builds:

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 18

i 14

r 16

 

got skill points in lore and stealth... with stealth being largely useless in a beta we has played dozens o' times. not much need to scout if you know where everything is.the rogue dual-wields spears, 'cause doing so is asinine AND efficacious.  tickles our sense o' whimsy to play such a character.

 

our group were moderately better than the beta party in spite o' sub-optimal stats.  the main reason for the improved party dynamic were our complete control over ability and talent selections, which we realize will not be the case in poe.  regardless, a hm beta play with the identified joinable npcs were hardly ineffective and we were able to fulfill every role we woulda' wished for... save for the stealthy scout who can disarm traps.

 

we will note that we had to give rasputin (we renamed the priest for our game because the priest portrait looks more like a rasputin than a durance) one less point o' resolve and kana got one less point in perception when we created him.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 25, 2015 by Gromnir

[Diogenes]

 

You don't have to play completely optimally 100% of the time.

Never said you did.  But I see no reason to play stupidly 'just because,' which is the only translation I can make of your posts.  There is no cost to scouting (and unlike IE games, you can sneak and check for traps simultaneously), ergo there is no reason not to.  On the other hand, there *Is* a cost to pointlessly setting off traps and wandering into fights unprepared.

 

I'm not sure why you keep arguing this at all. Logically, there is no reason not to scout.  Roleplaying wise (assuming your characters want to survive) there is no reason not to scout. I can see no reason to not scout outside of towns.  None.  It is the most obvious default behavior, 100% of the time, with absolutely no downside.

 

 

There is a cost to scouting. Its slower, maybe you need to split your party and it requires to you to do finicky stuff like hovering in places to wait for enemies to pass instead of shooting them in the face. Also you look silly sneaking around constantly! Not that I'm saying its pointless or I'd never use it but theres reasons to not want to constantly be doing it.

[mrmonocle]

I hope bester will update his mod asap or come up with a save editor, cause i want to respec the NPCs stats but keep their looks, banter and unique vo.