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Accuracy bonus for flame of devotion


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#1
dunehunter

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As flame of devotion is paladins' only offensive skill, i think it could get a buff for several reasons.

 

First of all, paladins have lower accuracy than other melee classes such as fighters, rogues and rangers. And since flame of devotion can only be used once per encounter, even you want to build a dps paladin focusing on flame of devotion, for example, a bleak walker pal with arquebus, grazing or missing will make their dps very unstable. My suggestion is to give like +10 accuracy to it.



#2
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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That's what Zealous Focus is for.



#3
Voss

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As flame of devotion is paladins' only offensive skill, i think it could get a buff for several reasons.

 

First of all, paladins have lower accuracy than other melee classes such as fighters, rogues and rangers. And since flame of devotion can only be used once per encounter, even you want to build a dps paladin focusing on flame of devotion, for example, a bleak walker pal with arquebus, grazing or missing will make their dps very unstable. My suggestion is to give like +10 accuracy to it.

It honestly doesn't change their dps that much. It does a normal hit in burn damage over time.  As a 1/encounter thing it isn't terrible, but it isn't super-important either.   They bring a nice constant buff to the table, but mostly they just make normal attacks.  Honestly, the big thing is paladins are just rather lacking in abilities. 

 

Like a lot of the 'melee/mundane' classes they feel a bit overshadowed- their counterpart is very much the chanter- also a nice source of buffs, but can utterly reshape the battlefield every X seconds (expressed as 3/4/5 phrases).  Stack up short phrases and they can just pop stuns off on a standard rotation, and then factor in summons, etc.  The comparison is pretty crazy.

 

The problem with paladins is they lend themselves so much to the passive buffer while tanking, and not much else.  A backstop for other characters to fight from, which depending on the player's preferred style, can be really boring and unsatisfying.   In a dps role, they really seem to lag behind other classes better suited to purpose.



#4
Gromnir

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paladins have (had) a role and that role is that they are low management support characters with excellent defensive qualities.  obsidian did not envision that paladins would contribute much to the damage potential o' a party via their melee (or ranged) attacks.  smite is a minimal concession to the fanbase demand for more direct combat efficacy from the paladin.  sadly, the more smite is improved, the further we go astray from the new and intriguing obsidian vision for the paladin.  improve auras and other support abilities o' the paladin makes sense.  improve defensive qualities o' the paladin makes sense.  improve smite?  

 

our opinion o' paladins started off as less than positive, but  as o' 480, paladins are excellent in support, and they extreme durable.  am disappointed by the apparent need to make the poe paladin, which is an impressive and intriguing class, into something with more damage potential.   am all in favor o' adding to paladin catalog o' abilities, but we woulda' rather seen more diversity o' their support and defensive qualities as 'posed to giving them smite or smite 2.0.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#5
Voss

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Granted- I think a lot of classes would benefit from more options to choose from. I just primarily dislike the paladin in its current form.  Switch the modal on, point them at the enemy and let them go like a windup toy. The playstyle can easily be completely passive and uninvolved unless something unexpected happens (and the few active abilities they have are so use-specific that even if something does come up, they likely can't address it in any fashion).


Edited by Voss, 21 March 2015 - 09:40 PM.

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#6
Gromnir

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Granted- I think a lot of classes would benefit from more options to choose from. I just primarily dislike the paladin in its current form.  Switch the modal on, point them at the enemy and let them go like a windup toy. The playstyle can easily be completely passive and uninvolved unless something unexpected happens (and the few active abilities they have are so use-specific that even if something does come up, they likely can't address it in any fashion).

am admitting that we prefer more micro-management, but not everybody does.  we like pressing buttons and controlling details o' combat.  based on boardie feedback, other folks is less enthusiastic 'bout the minutiae.  heck, am recalling that when the beta were first released, one o' the most  oft-heard complaints were that combat were far too frenetic, particularly in hard mode.  a class that didn't require constant handholding were a bit o' a boon.  yeah, obsidian has worked a bit to make combat less overwhelming, but even so, for folks who don't have tens o' hours invested in poe combat, we suspect that the pace o' combat will be unexpected.  perhaps some o' those folks will see usefulness in a poe paladin, yes?

 

create 11 balanced and genuine unique classes for a crpg is no mean feat.  paladins are low management support characters with excellent defensive qualities, so they is kinda meant to be boring to folks such as Gromnir who enjoy pressing buttons.  that being said, we recognize the niche the paladin fills, and that niche don't need smite.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 21 March 2015 - 10:00 PM.

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#7
dunehunter

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paladins have (had) a role and that role is that they are low management support characters with excellent defensive qualities.  obsidian did not envision that paladins would contribute much to the damage potential o' a party via their melee (or ranged) attacks.  smite is a minimal concession to the fanbase demand for more direct combat efficacy from the paladin.  sadly, the more smite is improved, the further we go astray from the new and intriguing obsidian vision for the paladin.  improve auras and other support abilities o' the paladin makes sense.  improve defensive qualities o' the paladin makes sense.  improve smite?  

 

our opinion o' paladins started off as less than positive, but  as o' 480, paladins are excellent in support, and they extreme durable.  am disappointed by the apparent need to make the poe paladin, which is an impressive and intriguing class, into something with more damage potential.   am all in favor o' adding to paladin catalog o' abilities, but we woulda' rather seen more diversity o' their support and defensive qualities as 'posed to giving them smite or smite 2.0.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sadly i dont want to play a support paladin :( It's really not fun to use one skill and let my character attacks automatically.


Edited by dunehunter, 21 March 2015 - 11:26 PM.

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#8
Sock

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Gromir makes a good point. Paladins can spec into a spike damage build and then switch into a very effective tank. You can use a paladin to immediately drop the biggest threat on the field, which is something only the rogue can do, but can then drop into a strong defensive role. That kind of flexibility is nice, but in addition to it the paladin is also generating buffs. 

 

Increasing their damage further isn't the best route to go. Honestly, I think that the Flames of Darconi Palace should be standard with Flames of Devotion, and the paladin should be a class that deals reactive damage. Give them abilities like "spiked shield" or "counter attack", so that they deal damage by being attacked. 



#9
Gromnir

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 Give them abilities like "spiked shield" or "counter attack", so that they deal damage by being attacked. 

these are excellent suggestions and more than more smite fixes, we would rather see such stuff added to a paladin's catalog o' abilities.

 

dunehunter,

 

the paladin is intended as a support class.  if you wanna do serious melee damage, the rogue is an ideal alternative.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!



#10
Luckmann

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In the context of this thread, we should remember that Flames of Devotion has been nerfed and then made into 2 per Encounter.
 
I absolutely agree that it should get a bonus chance to hit, but only if it did not affect the chance to crit. I am not entirely sure if that is possible.
 

these are excellent suggestions and more than more smite fixes, we would rather see such stuff added to a paladin's catalog o' abilities.

dunehunter,

the paladin is intended as a support class. if you wanna do serious melee damage, the rogue is an ideal alternative.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!


Not class is "intended as [role]". Even assuming so goes against the design goals. Yes, Paladins are good at Support, and can make great tanks, but that is no excuse whatsoever to argue against being able to build them like anything else. It is needlessly and meaninglessly restrictive. This is not an MMO.

Ultimately, each class should have any number of different roles or approaches as determined by their builds or the playstyle of the player, without any intended pigeonholing.
 

Sadly i dont want to play a support paladin sad.png It's really not fun to use one skill and let my character attacks automatically.


This is really what it comes down to. There is no inherent reason why Paladins need to be a support class, nor any reason why paladins should be less engaging and interesting than any other class. Using "it's intended as [x]" is merely an excuse and symptomatic of shallow Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay favoured by MMO:s and new-era FPS:s everywhere.

Especially in an RPG, every class should have a wide range of viable builds able to perform admirably if built in those directions, and potentially always be just as interesting, engaging, and reactive as any other class. Anyone excusing bad mechanics with "it's intended" is really just mouthing off cop-outs.

[...]

[...] the paladin should be a class that deals reactive damage. Give them abilities like "spiked shield" or "counter attack", so that they deal damage by being attacked.


I really like the suggestions, and I think that it should definitely be a viable build for the passively inclined, but I vehemently disagree that the paladin class should be a class that deals reactive damage.

I think the Paladin as a concept largely fell apart mechanically when they made virtually all Abilities for all classes optional and removed a lot of focus on specific mechanics and key characteristics. I think it would've been better if they had stuck to core abilities and then allowed the choice of abilities from a pool, although that would obviously necessitate a lot more abilities than are currently available, potentially grossly extending development time.

Would have give the Paladin (and other classes) the chance to stick to a core concept and then branch out in accordance to the player's chosen direction. As it is now, the Paladin "works" from a balance perspective, but suffers conceptually in that it feels largely passive and somewhat schizophrenic in what it can do, what paths it can take, and the Abilities it is offered.

It really feels like they're not sure what to do with it, and from experience, that's a really bad place to be with a Paladin.

Edited by Luckmann, 22 March 2015 - 03:17 AM.

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#11
Headbomb

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On my second-to-last playthrough of the BB, I picked a Darcozzi Paladin instead of my usual Kind Wayfarers and I have to say I much more enjoyed it in combat. Not that the Kind Wayfarers ability was bad, but the concept of a reactive paladin is just great. Give them a shield-bash stun ability (either per-encounter or a 10% chance of triggering), a taunt ability (per encounter), and a demoralizing passive (every attack vs paladin gives a -2 accuracy/-1defense cumulative penalty for 20 seconds) and you've got yourself a much more versatile class.



#12
dunehunter

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In the context of this thread, we should remember that Flames of Devotion has been nerfed and then made into 2 per Encounter.
 
I absolutely agree that it should get a bonus chance to hit, but only if it did not affect the chance to crit. I am not entirely sure if that is possible.
 

these are excellent suggestions and more than more smite fixes, we would rather see such stuff added to a paladin's catalog o' abilities.

dunehunter,

the paladin is intended as a support class. if you wanna do serious melee damage, the rogue is an ideal alternative.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!


Not class is "intended as [role]". Even assuming so goes against the design goals. Yes, Paladins are good at Support, and can make great tanks, but that is no excuse whatsoever to argue against being able to build them like anything else. It is needlessly and meaninglessly restrictive. This is not an MMO.

Ultimately, each class should have any number of different roles or approaches as determined by their builds or the playstyle of the player, without any intended pigeonholing.
 

Sadly i dont want to play a support paladin sad.png It's really not fun to use one skill and let my character attacks automatically.


This is really what it comes down to. There is no inherent reason why Paladins need to be a support class, nor any reason why paladins should be less engaging and interesting than any other class. Using "it's intended as [x]" is merely an excuse and symptomatic of shallow Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay favoured by MMO:s and new-era FPS:s everywhere.

Especially in an RPG, every class should have a wide range of viable builds able to perform admirably if built in those directions, and potentially always be just as interesting, engaging, and reactive as any other class. Anyone excusing bad mechanics with "it's intended" is really just mouthing off cop-outs.

[...]

[...] the paladin should be a class that deals reactive damage. Give them abilities like "spiked shield" or "counter attack", so that they deal damage by being attacked.


I really like the suggestions, and I think that it should definitely be a viable build for the passively inclined, but I vehemently disagree that the paladin class should be a class that deals reactive damage.

I think the Paladin as a concept largely fell apart mechanically when they made virtually all Abilities for all classes optional and removed a lot of focus on specific mechanics and key characteristics. I think it would've been better if they had stuck to core abilities and then allowed the choice of abilities from a pool, although that would obviously necessitate a lot more abilities than are currently available, potentially grossly extending development time.

Would have give the Paladin (and other classes) the chance to stick to a core concept and then branch out in accordance to the player's chosen direction. As it is now, the Paladin "works" from a balance perspective, but suffers conceptually in that it feels largely passive and somewhat schizophrenic in what it can do, what paths it can take, and the Abilities it is offered.

It really feels like they're not sure what to do with it, and from experience, that's a really bad place to be with a Paladin.

 

 

Totally agreed, every classes should be equally fun and have variable builds, no classes should be restricted to one role.



#13
Gromnir

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In the context of this thread, we should remember that Flames of Devotion has been nerfed and then made into 2 per Encounter.
 
I absolutely agree that it should get a bonus chance to hit, but only if it did not affect the chance to crit. I am not entirely sure if that is possible.
 

these are excellent suggestions and more than more smite fixes, we would rather see such stuff added to a paladin's catalog o' abilities.

dunehunter,

the paladin is intended as a support class. if you wanna do serious melee damage, the rogue is an ideal alternative.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!


Not class is "intended as [role]". Even assuming so goes against the design goals. Yes, Paladins are good at Support, and can make great tanks, but that is no excuse whatsoever to argue against being able to build them like anything else. It is needlessly and meaninglessly restrictive. This is not an MMO.

Ultimately, each class should have any number of different roles or approaches as determined by their builds or the playstyle of the player, without any intended pigeonholing.
 

Sadly i dont want to play a support paladin sad.png It's really not fun to use one skill and let my character attacks automatically.


This is really what it comes down to. There is no inherent reason why Paladins need to be a support class, nor any reason why paladins should be less engaging and interesting than any other class. Using "it's intended as [x]" is merely an excuse and symptomatic of shallow Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay favoured by MMO:s and new-era FPS:s everywhere.

Especially in an RPG, every class should have a wide range of viable builds able to perform admirably if built in those directions, and potentially always be just as interesting, engaging, and reactive as any other class. Anyone excusing bad mechanics with "it's intended" is really just mouthing off cop-outs.

 

obsidian disagreed.  when they announced the paladin class, they specific identified its role.  obsidian did not hide the fact that the paladin were s'posed to be a support role class that were excellent in defense.  

 

http://forums.obsidi...rs-and-priests/

 

http://forums.obsidi...lans/?p=1342013

 

the poe paladin is s'posed to play like 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal. the poe paladin had an intended role, just as all the other poe classes had roles.  

 

11 classes.  if you got 11 classes, it makes sense to have them be distinct.  why have classes at all if you can let players customize complete out o' the class role?  actually, Gromnir would be perfectly ok with no classes-- let the player make their own class from a wide variety o' abilities and talents. get rid o' classes and have free customization is a wonderful idea and it would get you and dune what you want.  'course that ain't what we got in poe.  we got classes in poe.  the more classes you got, the more narrow defined they must needs be.  

 

it were never hidden by the obsidians that the classes were designed to fulfill roles and that each role would be distinct, which is perfect rational and reasonable.  folks who want a bunch o' classes and wanna freely customize outta the roles attached to the classes is what don't make sense to us... and apparently not to the developers either.  

 

HA! Good Fun!



#14
illathid

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My beef with the paladin right now is that there's no real way to build a more "active" paladin. Most of their abilities are passives or reactive in nature. Compare that with the fighter which can built to be very active or completely passive.



#15
Gromnir

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My beef with the paladin right now is that there's no real way to build a more "active" paladin. Most of their abilities are passives or reactive in nature. Compare that with the fighter which can built to be very active or completely passive.

yeah, it can be a boring class, but that is a selling point for some folks.  boring to Gromnir is blessed low-maintenance to another player. even so, we woulda' liked more options for abilities that required player involvement, but we woulda' wanted stuff such as sock suggested earlier in the thread.  improve paladin by including more abilities, optional abilities, that would still be defensive and support in nature, but would require more player monitoring, for those o' us micro-managers who have control issues... or whatever.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#16
Shevek

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Totally agreed, every classes should be equally fun and have variable builds, no classes should be restricted to one role.

 

 

There are many builds open to the paladin. With the assorted orders, they are easily one of the more customizable classes. Ya, all builds are support builds BUT there is enough there so the player can choose how best to support the party.



#17
Odd Hermit

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I don't this is a Paladin issue I think it's an issue with most classes not having control over their accuracy in any meaningful way.

 

Some classes do get talents or spells to use to ensure or at least dramatically increase chance of important spells/abilities landing when they need it, others just don't. Very noticeable on Path of the Damned, really, where stacking accuracy efficiently makes more impact.

 

Sensuki would probably say we need accuracy back on Perception but I feel like any attribute you put accuracy on becomes too important.

 

Ideally the game should have some more creative/temporary accuracy boosts for prioritization. Being able to spend actions/resources to set-up nigh-guaranteed results feels more interesting and tactical than just dealing with lots of graze damage/duration and spamming.


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#18
illathid

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My beef with the paladin right now is that there's no real way to build a more "active" paladin. Most of their abilities are passives or reactive in nature. Compare that with the fighter which can built to be very active or completely passive.

yeah, it can be a boring class, but that is a selling point for some folks. boring to Gromnir is blessed low-maintenance to another player. even so, we woulda' liked more options for abilities that required player involvement, but we woulda' wanted stuff such as sock suggested earlier in the thread. improve paladin by including more abilities, optional abilities, that would still be defensive and support in nature, but would require more player monitoring, for those o' us micro-managers who have control issues... or whatever.

HA! Good Fun!

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong having a low maintenance build for the paladin shouldn't go a way. I just wish there was a way to have a more active build too. But if wishes were fishes...
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#19
Zansatsu

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I'm totally fine with a heavy armored front line support character / tank. What I've heard, not experienced, is that they are underpowered in a support role and must be rather narrowly focused in what the buff, accuracy or defense, nobody picks the charge. I could be wrong but there big claim to fame is there modals but you half to select each one at 3 different lvls. If all were automatically available and then you could pick between the other active abilities and weapon/defensive/utility talents that would help IMO. If I'm wrong and you do get all 3 automatically I take it all back because then you could at least strengthen one through talents and have the ability to situationally switch between then making them more interesting.

#20
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I'm totally fine with a heavy armored front line support character / tank. What I've heard, not experienced, is that they are underpowered in a support role and must be rather narrowly focused in what the buff, accuracy or defense, nobody picks the charge. I could be wrong but there big claim to fame is there modals but you half to select each one at 3 different lvls. If all were automatically available and then you could pick between the other active abilities and weapon/defensive/utility talents that would help IMO. If I'm wrong and you do get all 3 automatically I take it all back because then you could at least strengthen one through talents and have the ability to situationally switch between then making them more interesting.


You have to pick these three modal seperately, if you do so, you will waste 1/3 of your abilities.

Edited by dunehunter, 24 March 2015 - 10:45 AM.





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