Thank you so much Obsidian for the Vallians

[Diogenes]

Vailian culture isn't just Italian, theres a mix of French and I think maybe Spanish stuff in there too? So theres a lot more you can draw from. For example Alexandre Dumas who wrote the Three Musketeers was a French POC. So you could make a Vailian Musketeer type, theres at least one great portrait for that as well as the Vailian clothing which is perfect for that. Dumas would approve I'm sure. Or you could base them off Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges who was a champion fencer, a virtuoso violinist and conductor of the leading symphony orchestra in Paris.

 

St. Maurice was mentioned before, seen here not putting up with any ****.

 

 

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com is a good resource for people wanting to learn about stuff like this.

[ashtonw]

Medievalpoc.tumblr.com is a great place to go if you want to learn bad history and see what terrible scholarship looks like.

[Tort]

Sorry you feel this way, people only remember the things that are the most recent.[..]

Indeed, also it is still civil right issue in many places, which is why its such a popular theme in gaming (and otherwise). And I was happy to see this little twist on this "tried and true" theme, which is both historical and allows for some grey in the setting for us to explore.

[dyrhet]

Medievalpoc.tumblr.com is a great place to go if you want to learn bad history and see what terrible scholarship looks like.

 

Bad history in the sense that they are not an especially good historian and make several wild leaps with sources, obviously the idea that there were people we would presently understand as "people of colour" existing in europe historically is not bad history.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dyrhet

[ashtonw]

That, and there's the whole white-washing of some people of color and kind of creepy fetisization of others.

 

I just don't want anyone taking that blog at face value, I'm totally cool with the concept.

Edited March 21, 2015 by ashtonw

[Valmy]

Vailian culture isn't just Italian, theres a mix of French and I think maybe Spanish stuff in there too? So theres a lot more you can draw from. For example Alexandre Dumas who wrote the Three Musketeers was a French POC. So you could make a Vailian Musketeer type, theres at least one great portrait for that as well as the Vailian clothing which is perfect for that. Dumas would approve I'm sure.

 

His father was a general during the French Revolution, I put a picture of him up earlier. He is the only black French Major General in history, or at least the only one to lead soldiers into battle. His mother was a slave in what is today Haiti and his father was a French noble which created the perverse situation that in the Caribbean he was a slave but in France he was an aristocrat. Fortunately his father moved back to France and he entered the military like a noble do. The rest is history.

[Ultimo Noressi]

 

Vailian culture isn't just Italian, theres a mix of French and I think maybe Spanish stuff in there too? So theres a lot more you can draw from. For example Alexandre Dumas who wrote the Three Musketeers was a French POC. So you could make a Vailian Musketeer type, theres at least one great portrait for that as well as the Vailian clothing which is perfect for that. Dumas would approve I'm sure.

 

His father was a general during the French Revolution, I put a picture of him up earlier. He is the only black French Major General in history, or at least the only one to lead soldiers into battle. His mother was a slave in what is today Haiti and his father was a French noble which created the perverse situation that in the Caribbean he was a slave but in France he was an aristocrat. Fortunately his father moved back to France and he entered the military like a noble do. The rest is history.

 

 

Chevalier de Saint-Georges

 

Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges (French: [sɛ̃.ʒɔʁʒ]; also Saint-George; December 25, 1745 – June 10, 1799)^[1] was a champion fencer, a virtuoso violinist and conductor of the leading symphony orchestra in Paris. Born in Guadeloupe, he was the son of George Bologne de Saint-Georges, a wealthy planter, and Nanon, his African slave.^[2] During the French Revolution, Saint-Georges was colonel of the 'Légion St.-Georges,'^[3] the first all-black regiment in Europe, fighting on the side of the Republic. Today the Chevalier de Saint-Georges is best remembered as the first classical composer of African ancestry

[Valmy]

Ah yeah that is a cool story as well.

[Ted Striker]

Since we're making race an issue, I'd also like to thank, as a person of color, Obsidian for adding in the Aumaua. There aren't enough blue people represented in today's society, thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart, for recognizing blue people everywhere. If you make a MMO, you can have my first $10. 

[Tort]

On the Race side of things, I am not sure where Obsidian is going. Usually in RPGs all Humanoid Races can be seen as Human ethnics, that due to some extreme circumstances developed distinguishable physical differences, but those differences can be gapped by intermingling and sharing their culture etc.

 

However, in PoE, Races are different species who can't intermingle, there will never be half Human\Elf. Honestly, I have a hard time imagining our world, with several intelligent\functional living side by side during darker times of history...

[Diogenes]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but I think you are saying its weird that difference races/species live together in harmony? In the Pillars of Eternity world there has been terrible wars in the past, orlans get enslaved a lot and treated like ****, Godlike are feared etc etc etc. It's not all happy coexistence.

[Luckmann]

Since we're making race an issue, I'd also like to thank, as a person of color, Obsidian for adding in the Aumaua. There aren't enough blue people represented in today's society, thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart, for recognizing blue people everywhere. If you make a MMO, you can have my first $10.

I cannot wait for Obsidian to make an Apache simulator. Representation matters.

 

On the Race side of things, I am not sure where Obsidian is going. Usually in RPGs all Humanoid Races can be seen as Human ethnics, that due to some extreme circumstances developed distinguishable physical differences, but those differences can be gapped by intermingling and sharing their culture etc.

 

However, in PoE, Races are different species who can't intermingle, there will never be half Human\Elf. Honestly, I have a hard time imagining our world, with several intelligent\functional living side by side during darker times of history...

Arguably, in a pre-industrial society with a lot of room, a largely unexplored world, and ample resources all around you, the very fact that they can't procreate with eachother could be argued as being the defining source of amicable coexistence.

 

Also, it's a fantasy world, so while I'm always arguing for internal consistency and relative realism, many assumptions in this world cannot be taken for granted based on our own factual reality. I remember one person reacting (somewhat jokingly) to the fact that I was romancing Viconia in Baldur's Gate II, saying that she is black. But she's not. She's drow. It's really the same here. For example, for all we know, in the world of PoE, humans are actually created equal (which would be odd, considering the variety exhibited by all the other species, but alright).

 

Vailians aren't sub-saharans, they are Vailians, and they happen to share a resemblance to people in our own world, and so on.

 

I think Sawyer deliberately wanted to get away from the more realistic everyone-hates-eachother approach to fantasy, and I really must say that it's refreshing as all hell to get away from the nonsense half-everything quarter-halfling dracowhatever. Also, think of the potential prostitution! Halfling lasses for everyone!

 

 

...I wonder if orlan trafficking is a thing.. because if it's not.. it probably should be.

 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Luckmann

[Tort]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but I think you are saying its weird that difference races/species live together in harmony?

Exactly, the fact that those races are actually different species. For example, if Dragons were real, can you imagine us living side by side with them? Its especially dubious since many races developed side by side throughout its early tribal periods..

[Diogenes]

All the races have fought in the past, there's prejudices and racism going on in the "current day" as well. I think the game handles it pretty well, at some point you just have to accept in a fantasy RPG theres going to be different races living alongside one another. Maybe there were other races humans and elves etc teamed up together to fight and they were wiped out in prehistory so they all decided each other were ok. Maybe all the races bonded over amusing cave art of genitals.

 

I think Obsidian wanted to make a world that was believable but they aimed for something that had a more optimistic tone rather than a grimdark, everyone hates each other and there is constant strife kind of world.

[Tort]

It doesn't matter its Fantasy RPG. If look closely, at the core all genres\mediums explore the same themes, with time some new social issues brought forward, but at the core its good ol' human nature we love, hate ...

 

All the races have fought in the past, there's prejudices and racism going on in the "current day" as well.

That is pretty much the common RPG setting, where "races" are just more flourished variants of real life people stereotypes. And it works well, because it teaches that in the end despite those superficial differences at the core all people(humans) have the same needs, hopes and dreams..

 

The difference here is that those races are actually separate species, and with Obsidian emphasis to make the setting more plausible (which I enjoy), this has stuck out for me from the start. For the most part of history, we haven't been as enlightened as we pretend to be now days, spilling rivers of blood of those who were perceived different, and I have trouble imaging so many actual species developing side by side without primal instincts taking over. (starting with fear)

 

Anyway, this isn't a gamebreaker by a long shot, just a tiny itch.

 

I think Sawyer deliberately wanted to get away from the more realistic everyone-hates-eachother approach to fantasy.

To be honest, when I first read it, I thought that JS made it for him to have a setting based reason to avoid half-races.

[Diogenes]

So really its just the fact that humans and elves can't have babies that ruins the whole thing for you?

[Tort]

Some kind of blue fur ball can be cute. But its an oversimplification on your part, of what throughout history have been central to human society. To be fair, JS put in hemming (a ritual that would allow some cultural sharing) and we have gods (which can make anything possible, because "magic"), nevertheless this aspect of the setting seem dubious to me. Blood is thicker than water.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Tort

[Diogenes]

The popular saying "blood is thicker than water" is actually comes from another proverb "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."

 

Rather than "blood" shared by family, the original interpretation of the term was literal blood. In other words, the blood that is shed by soldiers on the battlefield makes for stronger bonds than those of the family you happened by chance to be born into.

[Tort]

If by 'actually' you mean one interpretation then yes.. although for our purpose you are being literal with your straw.

 

Anyway as noted, the original\common RPG "Race" theme works because its obviously a flourished case of realworld ethnic groups. However, here we got little edgy and made those into different species (all of which developed at the same time period, and are equal). It is mighty progressive(?) of us, but lacking on the authenticity side which they tried to give the rest of the setting.

 

As for children, while only one aspect of the above, our society have been formed around protecting them and family (influencing our legal framework, values, and even political ideology). And while in today society those concept has lost a lot its traditional sense\need, we are speaking about a time of primitive tribal society, where wilder impulse of men ruled... (many of which has biological reasons behind them, and related abhorrent practices effecting evolution)

 

In today terms, we are still barely tolerant of people who are physically indistinguishable from us, but don't subscribe to our notion of the "right" values. Throughout history we tried to eliminate many such people (or assimilate them by sawing our seed\ideas) But here we got actual species, who through their reliance on the same resources to survive, would be in direct competition. (Who are very physically different, who can't not be assimilated, who do not share our culture, with limited options for culture exchange) Never the less they managed to live in peace and prosperity together in empires that stood for the last hundred and even thousand of years...

 

I need something dark in that past, to be able to maintain a bare minmum suspension of disbelief

[Fiaryn]

If by 'actually' you mean one interpretation then yes.. although for our purpose you are being literal with your straw.

 

Anyway as noted, the original\common RPG "Race" theme works because its obviously a flourished case of realworld ethnic groups. However, here we got little edgy and made those into different species (all of which developed at the same time period, and are equal). It is mighty progressive(?) of us, but lacking on the authenticity side which they tried to give the rest of the setting.

 

As for children, while only one aspect of the above, our society have been formed around protecting them and family (influencing our legal framework, values, and even political ideology). And while in today society those concept has lost a lot its traditional sense\need, we are speaking about a time of primitive tribal society, where wilder impulse of men ruled... (many of which has biological reasons behind them, and related abhorrent practices effecting evolution)

 

In today terms, we are still barely tolerant of people who are physically indistinguishable from us, but don't subscribe to our notion of the "right" values. Throughout history we tried to eliminate many such people (or assimilate them by sawing our seed\ideas) But here we got actual species, who through their reliance on the same resources to survive, would be in direct competition. (Who are very physically different, who can't not be assimilated, who do not share our culture, with limited options for culture exchange) Never the less they managed to live in peace and prosperity together in empires that stood for the last hundred and even thousand of years...

 

I need something dark in that past, to be able to maintain a bare minmum suspension of disbelief

Well

 

A) The bolded is not true. There is a reason why Culture and Race are separate selections in this game.

 

B) Racism, as we conceive of it, is actually a fairly modern invention. Defining it along grounds of skin color and playing up physical differences is more of an after-the-fact-rationalization that grew out of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. So it's actually kind of mistaken to think, "Wow we're pretty racist today, so that means if you go back 600 years they should have been even MORE racist". The answer is actually "yes and no".

 

Grim and gritty does not historical accuracy make. It is more plausible to me that the nations of PoE are rather multi-racial because it echoes the realities of say, France, which up until the late 1800s was rather multi-ethnic, and rather a lot of people who lived in the Republic/Empire/Second Republic/Second Empire did not speak French.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Fiaryn

[Diogenes]

If by 'actually' you mean one interpretation then yes.. although for our purpose you are being literal with your straw.

 

Anyway as noted, the original\common RPG "Race" theme works because its obviously a flourished case of realworld ethnic groups. However, here we got little edgy and made those into different species (all of which developed at the same time period, and are equal). It is mighty progressive(?) of us, but lacking on the authenticity side which they tried to give the rest of the setting.

 

As for children, while only one aspect of the above, our society have been formed around protecting them and family (influencing our legal framework, values, and even political ideology). And while in today society those concept has lost a lot its traditional sense\need, we are speaking about a time of primitive tribal society, where wilder impulse of men ruled... (many of which has biological reasons behind them, and related abhorrent practices effecting evolution)

 

In today terms, we are still barely tolerant of people who are physically indistinguishable from us, but don't subscribe to our notion of the "right" values. Throughout history we tried to eliminate many such people (or assimilate them by sawing our seed\ideas) But here we got actual species, who through their reliance on the same resources to survive, would be in direct competition. (Who are very physically different, who can't not be assimilated, who do not share our culture, with limited options for culture exchange) Never the less they managed to live in peace and prosperity together in empires that stood for the last hundred and even thousand of years...

 

I need something dark in that past, to be able to maintain a bare minmum suspension of disbelief

 

Well it's the original intended meaning. I still don't understand why Pillars triggers your suspension of disbelief but stuff like DnD is fine? They are still different species there.

 

Also there HAS been dark in the past of this world and there are no empires that have lasted thousands of years. Theres been infighting. There still is.

 

Also as Flaryn said, people who lived back in the day didn't feel the same way as we did. Back in the Roman Empire for example people of lots of different skin colours lived together, being all chill (at least as chill as a Roman can be heh). It didn't matter if you were born in Africa or right in Rome, if you were a Roman citizen and followed the ideals of society then you were cool. Being culturally/legally Roman was what was important, not being Italian/born in Rome. This wasn't 100% perfect all the time, they had some problems with the Germans for example in the WRE but overall the idea that people of different races or skin colour being the enemy is very recent, it was all about hating on the different countries/tribes/city-states etc. Who cares if Johnius Smithicus has dark skin, all that matters is that he's not a bloody Carthaginian!

Edited March 25, 2015 by Diogenes

[Tort]

Also as Flaryn said, people who lived back in the day didn't feel the same way as we did. [..] overall the idea that people of different races or skin colour being the enemy is very recent, it was all about hating on the different countries/tribes/city-states etc.

Considering that I started by noting that the original RPGs Race theme, which akin to Ethnics (a definition which include "common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience"), works well.

 

I can only assume that you narrowly interpreted physical difference as skin color... Surely you can understand why your example falls short when we consider fluffy bunny ears vs hulk twice your size with shark teeth.. and how it would effect interaction between the two species during primitive tribal stage...

 

Consider the reputation that Orlans gained in Dyrwood in just a decade. I'd expect FAR bigger animosities between the species, rooted in ages long culture, religion etc other, not equal rights and co-existence.

 

Back in the Roman Empire for example people of lots of different skin colours lived together, being all chill. It didn't matter if you were born in Africa or right in Rome, if you were a Roman citizen and followed the ideals of society then you were cool. Being culturally/legally Roman was what was important, not being Italian/born in Rome.

Arguably Alexander the Great is the better example of cultural assimilation, he who first conquered most of the known western world and figured how to hold to it. Although those example are both grounded in our own world, where there is only one specie and such assimilation is possible...

 

FYI on Earth several different variations on what loosely called the human species have co-existed in the past, but only we survived past the tribal stage. And while in theory it is possible that two or more intelligent species would develop at the same time, in the same region competing for the same resources, and each develop the tools to coexist. All we known suggest that eventually one will dominate and lead to the extinction of the other.

 

Which is why I said that on the authenticity side, i'd need more than just a little ritual and low key squabbling to understand how we got different SPECIES that not only coexist, but completely entwined.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Tort

[SKull]

Americans are the only ones who obsess over this race stuff tbh. Nobody in Europe gives a toss. Skin color doesn`t determine who you are. Your actions do. And the Romans were that way too which was why they had black generals and even one or two black emperors. Nobody cared because it doesn`t matter. Only in the USA does it matter for some weird reason. And apparently it matters to everyone, whether they`re black or white. Weird people...

Emperor Eliogabalus. Third most useless emperor in Roman history and black. Who cares!?! He was a perv and a moron so that`s why nobody likes him.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SKull

[Diogenes]

We live alongside cats and they are probably smart than us. They live in our houses and sleep all day except when we bring them food. Obviously intelligent species can co-exist.

 

I think you'll just have to accept that its a genre convention that you are going to have different races/species living together in the same world. You might find any explanation for why they haven't wiped each other out to be artificial because obviously it is since its a story Obsidian made up. It's a fantasy RPG so you gotta have humans, elves and all that to choose from. I suppose since Obsidian favours a more grounded setting it seems more out of place to you?

[Lychnidos]

Elagabalus wasn't black, and neither were any of the Roman Emperors. Don't equate African with black. Also, your notion that nobody in Europe cares, and that only Americans obsess over race is really ridiculous. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Lychnidos