Paladins - Support only?

[ksagan]

 

About tanking multple enemies, I built a high level fighter, paladin, barbarian and monk yesterday, and let them tank Meredith's party seperately. What I find is fighter, even barbaran and monk tank better than paladins when facing multiple enemies. Offense is the best defense, my barbarian and monk kills faster than dying due to their beasty AOE damage. And of four classes, paladins have to worst healing abilities, or CC to make them safe.

 

That's odd, because my own experience with tanky paladins has been that they are fantastic. Mind you, they can't kill anything at all, but they can soak it up like nothing else while your killers do the work. What kind of build were you using?

 

 

Could vary situationally; if your ranged DPS is trading blows with the enemy's, or if the enemy has high numbers but low endurance, a tank that can hold his own on the DPS chart could be superior for his ability to decrease incoming DPS by thinning enemy numbers. Convsersely, if you're fighting a boss, or high endurance enemies, you really need your tank to be able to just soak blows ad nauseam.

 

It comes down to personal tactical preference: Do you build for the trash encounters, conserve your strength, then burn resources on the boss? Or do you build for the boss, and struggle to conserve through the minions? I've always preferred the latter, especially on harder difficulty settings; smooths out difficulty curve spikes. But I'm not used to the level of micro-managing PoE entails, and I think building with RTWP in mind makes it a more viable option.

[Nivar]

So would this make a viable Paladin that doesn't Tank, but instead fights like a fighter but with better deflection and saves:

 

Mig      18    (+3% dam, +3% Healing, +2 Fort) x8
Con      13   (+3% Endur/Hlth, +2 Fort) x3
Dex      17   (+3% Speed, +2 Reflex) x7
Per       10   (+3 Interr, +1 Deflect, +2 Reflex) x(0)
Int          3   (+6% AoE, +5% duration, +1 Will) x(-7)
Res      17   (+3 Conc, +1 Deflect +2 will) x7

 

- wears hvy armour

- shield and weapon style not sure about yet.

- avoids ally/radius affecting abilities/talents.

- (auto)Faith and Conviction (with Deep Faith)
- Flames of Devotion (with Intense Flames)
- Zealous Focus (with critical focus)
- ...

 

And does having really low INT make a difference in this game for non-combat interactions?

[Zansatsu]

So would this make a viable Paladin that doesn't Tank, but instead fights like a fighter but with better deflection and saves:

 

Mig      18    (+3% dam, +3% Healing, +2 Fort) x8

Con      13   (+3% Endur/Hlth, +2 Fort) x3

Dex      17   (+3% Speed, +2 Reflex) x7

Per       10   (+3 Interr, +1 Deflect, +2 Reflex) x(0)

Int          3   (+6% AoE, +5% duration, +1 Will) x(-7)

Res      17   (+3 Conc, +1 Deflect +2 will) x7

 

- wears hvy armour

- shield and weapon style not sure about yet.

- avoids ally/radius affecting abilities/talents.

- (auto)Faith and Conviction (with Deep Faith)

- Flames of Devotion (with Intense Flames)

- Zealous Focus (with critical focus)

- ...

 

And does having really low INT make a difference in this game for non-combat interactions?

Intelligence makes a difference in your Aura sizes and the affective length of your commands. If it's to low they won't affect anybody. I have been playing a build like so

 

Might: 12

Dex: 10

Con: 10

Per: 16

Int: 14

Res: 16

 

I have been using 2 handed weapons and heavier armor and feel very very tough. My models at int 14 are affecting even my ranged who atm are not to far back. His damage is fine and once I get a few more commands he will be a nice front line mele support. Pretty happy with him so far.

[ksagan]

[mild early game SPOILERS]

 

This game uses everything for non-combat interactions, not just intuitively social skills/attributes. So far I've see a test that had two levels for perception, of which I had neither, but also let my high might bail me out, a lore test, and a slew of cultural/racial tests that I have failed all of (which, statistically, any given player usually will); but I've yet to run into an opportunity to flex my 20 intellect outside of beastly CC spells.

[Hatred]

Paladins never do the best dps in any game I have played. You can make an off-tank DPS who has some ok support abilities. I would agree overall that paladins arent that boss. I think chanters fill the role better. I am hoping paladins receive a little more love in the future. I would personally be more inclined to pick a fighter since they get weapon specialization and other fighter only talents which would be more useful in an auto attack melee build in my (untested) opinion. 

[Mysh]

Here comes my latest and most versatile Paladin build. Scrap my previous suggestions; they are rubbish

 

It's not only viable in harder difficulties, but also does exceptionally well in RP acting as a soft-tongued diplomat.

 

Role: Tank, Support, Combat Initiator

 

Advantages: High survivability, able to guard party members, weak but sustainable DPS, strong in role playing aspects, all-around.

Disadvantages: Micro intensive, shines over endgame, makes all the dirty work to let others shine

 

Paladin order: Shiedbearers of St. Elcga (order choice may appear questionable, but is priceless in actuality. Read below)

 

Race: Pale Elf (elemental resistance DRs, yes, please!), Hearth Orlan (slightly more DPS focused works well too), Moon Godlike (more heals, but no helms).

 

Attributes:

Might: 10 (matching might and dexterity yields the best DPS with this build. I won't elaborate here, since it's too detailed. Let me know, if you need further explanation on this.)
Dex: 10 (we will absolutely need this to sustain some DPS, in the end attack speed will be horrendous. Read below.)
Con: 10 (the build is tanky even with 10CON, but wouldn't suggest to go below for better synergy with high athletics skill)
Per: 17 (Deflection is needed for tanks, awesome in RP)
Int: 14 (Only for RP, offers minor buffs in support abilities. Truth is you can easily dump this to 10 and go 12 might, 12 dexterity, if you don't care for role-playing your character. We said we will be diplomats, so 14 INT feels good)
Res: 17 (More deflection, yes please! Complements the RP side of our character nicely)

 

Skills: Athletics 9 (so important for a tank), Lore 10 (for RP reasons), Survival 4 (RP and potions).

 

Weapon set of  Choice: Noble (Mace) and shield

 

Abilities:

Level 1: Lay on Hands (A minor heal, far more useful than FoD in combination with shielding touch, read below)

Level 3: Zealous Endurance (more DR, yes please, we will need as much as we can)

Level 5: Sworn Enermy (this ability offers an absolutely important accuracy bonuses, and a x1.2 damage bonus. Together with your modal, it will allow you to bring a small but sustainable DPS in fights, where you have to contribute. Given your paladin cannot be brought down in fights, small but sustainable DPS is more than it sounds.)

Level 7: Reviving Exhortation (A well-placed revive can turn battles around)

Level 9 Reinforcing Exhortation (It allows you to shield any ally in a radius of 10m, it's a priceless support ability. Being able to shield your damage dealer from afar means a lot in PoE).

Level 11 Hastening exhortion opens hardcore support abilities (this can turn your dual wielding DPS into a killing machine, and by doing things like this is how you win in Path of the Damned), Righteous Soul (makes our Paladin uber tanky). Choice is up to you.

 

Talents:

Level 2: Weapon and Shield Style (Absolutely vital. More deflection and more reflex, yes please! We are the shieldbearers after all.)

Level 4: Cautious Attack +10 deflection , -20% attack speed. (more deflection, yes please. Essentially, It stacks with zealous endurance and vulnerable attack. Should be triggered off, if character is not in the centre of focus to gain action speed).

Level 6: Shielding Touch (Modifies lay on hands and yields a +8 deflection bonus for 10sec. Sounds, nah... but it's absolutely fantastic. If you heal someone he absolutely needs this deflection bonus. Moreover it buys your ally time to get out from a difficult situation. Imagine this in combination with Reinforcing Exhortation, it basically turns any character into a tank. The best part? In contrast to other Paladin skills, it can also be used as a self-buff.)

Level 8: Weapon Focus Noble (Paladin's accuracy is not that great, but this together with sworn enemy, will allow to bring in some damage when needed. Why the heck noble? Well, we will go with mace for the 5 DR bypass bonus).

Level 10: Vulnerable Attack, -20% attack speed, +5DR bypass (more stacking DR bypass? Yes, please. As mentioned, it stacks as a modal ability with zealous endurance and cautious attack. Should be almost always on. If vulnerable attack is on together with cautious attack and the paladin is in full-plate things get very show. Hence, 10 dexterity makes things viable.)

Level 12: Hold the Line (less flanking is always good), Deep Faith (more deflection and saving throws, nice), Superior Deflection (+5 deflection sounds good). Any choice would do.

 

Comments:

1: You can have one paladin, one offensive and one defensive modal on at the same time.

2: Depending on talent choice, you can get your deflection sustainable up to 98-103 and spiked up to 106-111 with self-buffs and without bonus items.

3: The suggested skillpoint distribution yields 0 unused points in the end.

4: I value +3 perception, +10DR fire, +10DR freeze, over the heals of a Moon Godlike, but all suggested racial choices are viable.

 

Things you should forget:

Anything related to flames of devotion (Tried hard to make this work, in the end you spend way too many talent points and gain almost nothing in return. Might work for high might builds, but not for this, but then again if you want to play a DPS build, paladin is not your best choice.)

Greater lay on hands (+10 heal once per encounter, really?). If you want heals, get a cleric and druid in your party.

 

Feel free to dip in and comment. Thanks for reading.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Mysh

[Nivar]

 

So would this make a viable Paladin that doesn't Tank, but instead fights like a fighter but with better deflection and saves:

 

Mig      18    (+3% dam, +3% Healing, +2 Fort) x8

Con      13   (+3% Endur/Hlth, +2 Fort) x3

Dex      17   (+3% Speed, +2 Reflex) x7

Per       10   (+3 Interr, +1 Deflect, +2 Reflex) x(0)

Int          3   (+6% AoE, +5% duration, +1 Will) x(-7)

Res      17   (+3 Conc, +1 Deflect +2 will) x7

 

- wears hvy armour

- shield and weapon style not sure about yet.

- avoids ally/radius affecting abilities/talents.

- (auto)Faith and Conviction (with Deep Faith)

- Flames of Devotion (with Intense Flames)

- Zealous Focus (with critical focus)

- ...

 

And does having really low INT make a difference in this game for non-combat interactions?

Intelligence makes a difference in your Aura sizes and the affective length of your commands. If it's to low they won't affect anybody. I have been playing a build like so

 

Might: 12

Dex: 10

Con: 10

Per: 16

Int: 14

Res: 16

 

I have been using 2 handed weapons and heavier armor and feel very very tough. My models at int 14 are affecting even my ranged who atm are not to far back. His damage is fine and once I get a few more commands he will be a nice front line mele support. Pretty happy with him so far.

 

 

 

So does this mean it is a good Paladin build?  I don't care about aura size (I am a selfish paladin :D) or command duration.  I am looking to maximize its Damage per Second and keep its Defenses better then that of a Fighter.

[Lasci]

Paladins are a supportive class. Dumping intelligence to 3 is going to completely negate your aura. You're not going to have the highest damage output and the most tankiness. It's kinda a 'one or the other' situation.

[Volourn]

Paladinsa re awesome. Mine rarely gets hit and does pretty good damage too.

[Nivar]

I  guess I just find Tanking boring.  Rather make 2 characters that are both good at Attack and Defense, then one that is perfect at Defense and one that is excellent on Attack.

Oh well, maybe fighter then.

[Daemonjax]

I  guess I just find Tanking boring.  Rather make 2 characters that are both good at Attack and Defense, then one that is perfect at Defense and one that is excellent on Attack.

Oh well, maybe fighter then.

 

The game's mechanics don't support building characters that can both tank and dish out high dps.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Mysh]

I  guess I just find Tanking boring.  Rather make 2 characters that are both good at Attack and Defense, then one that is perfect at Defense and one that is excellent on Attack.

Oh well, maybe fighter then.

 

The build I posted does decent damage. You cannot compare it to a rogue though.

[Ichthyic]

 

Things you should forget:

Anything related to flames of devotion (Tried hard to make this work...

you mean you tried hard to make it work... offensively.

 

for shieldbearers... this is a DEFENSIVE skill.

 

it's far, FAR better than lay on hands.

 

why?

 

shielding flames is the very first upgrade, which gives you +10 deflection, for ALL your party members, every time you use your flames ability, which you can do twice per combat.

 

that makes it beat hands... hands down.

 

don't know how you missed that, unless all you did was look at how to exploit flames offensively.

 

 

[Lasci]

I skimmed this thread again and it feels like there's a lot of staggering misinformation.

 

If you want to play a paladin for roleplaying purposes, just do it. Even in PotD, you do not need an optimal build in order to survive. 

 

Paladins are a supportive class. They tank well and they do damage well, but they're by and far outclassed by others. However, they have a lot of abilities that can help your allies a great deal. They can help increase accuracy, deflection, defenses, etc. etc. depending on what abilities you choose and which aura you go with. 

 

If you want a DEFENSIVE paladin, Wayfarers, Goldpact, and Shieldbearers are both good choices. Orlan is good if you want to maximize your resolve and perception for deflection. You want constitution, resolve, and perception. You want to pick up weapon and shield style, along with Hold the Line.

 

If you want an OFFENSIVE paladin, Bleak Walkers or Darcozzi are good choices. Aumaua, dwarves, and humans are good if you want to max your might. You want might and dexterity and enough constitution to survive. You want to pick up two-handed style and any of the offensive talents that appeal to you.

 

Paladins generally don't want to reduce their intelligence.

 

This legitimately isn't hard. You don't need to follow a specific build path to excel. Hybrids aren't the best at this game, but that doesn't make them bad under any circumstances. You can play a paladin who is tanky but still does damage if you mix and match your stats.

[Zansatsu]

I skimmed this thread again and it feels like there's a lot of staggering misinformation.

 

If you want to play a paladin for roleplaying purposes, just do it. Even in PotD, you do not need an optimal build in order to survive. 

 

Paladins are a supportive class. They tank well and they do damage well, but they're by and far outclassed by others. However, they have a lot of abilities that can help your allies a great deal. They can help increase accuracy, deflection, defenses, etc. etc. depending on what abilities you choose and which aura you go with. 

 

If you want a DEFENSIVE paladin, Wayfarers, Goldpact, and Shieldbearers are both good choices. Orlan is good if you want to maximize your resolve and perception for deflection. You want constitution, resolve, and perception. You want to pick up weapon and shield style, along with Hold the Line.

 

If you want an OFFENSIVE paladin, Bleak Walkers or Darcozzi are good choices. Aumaua, dwarves, and humans are good if you want to max your might. You want might and dexterity and enough constitution to survive. You want to pick up two-handed style and any of the offensive talents that appeal to you.

 

Paladins generally don't want to reduce their intelligence.

 

This legitimately isn't hard. You don't need to follow a specific build path to excel. Hybrids aren't the best at this game, but that doesn't make them bad under any circumstances. You can play a paladin who is tanky but still does damage if you mix and match your stats.

 

Yes you can technically build a paladin any way you want. However going againsts class types sort of gimps what that class is then effective at. As you move to harder difficulty it makes little sense to try and build a DPS paladin,which you can, when you really need effective DPS from other classes and you are not making use of what your paladin can actually do well.

 

At best the Paladin will be out DPS'd by almost everybody. The build I've seen that is effective is Ranged but who wants to play a ranged Paladin?