SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[Osvir]

Thanks for the correction I was wondering about that.

[Sensuki]

EDIT: Simplified examples:

Say you got 8 actions by standing still, and 6 actions by moving around a lot (-25%), during the same amount of time. Enemies get the same treatment.

 

Now, let's say the Prone Duration is 4 actions (half the time). You can either take those 4 actions standing still, or run away and take 3 actions (-25%). It prevents kiting. During the Prone Duration, the enemy can take 0 actions. You lost 1 action, the enemy lost 4 actions.

 

*shrug*

 

In Turn-Based, you could see Prone, Stun, Paralyze etc. as: You get 2 turns and the enemy gets 1 turn. Without the Slowed Recovery rate, you'd get 3 turns for 1 turn.

This is not turn-based.

 

Prone IS SUPER VALUABLE on it's own and when you knock something prone IN THIS GAME - you do not want to be moving around, you want to be POUNDING THE CRAP OUT OF THE PRONE GUY for the duration of his prone because he has a Deflection penalty and can't fight back. If you knock out a Crystal Eater spider, or Korgrak, or an Adra Beetle - HOLY CRAP DUDE KILL THEM NOW ASAP. That is the value of disables like that. It has nothing to do with slowing recovery time.

 

There are instances I would say where it would be fair to knock someone prone and then focus on someone else, but knocking someone prone and taking them out is usually the best way to play.

 

Characters that attack fast (dual wielders) lose actions when they move anyway. The slow hitting guys can move around if they're not engaged, but they can't do much because they've got to wait for their recovery to tick down - which is enough of a penalty as it is, and you want to keep a penalty that makes it a bad idea to play like that? The movement recovery penalty is a percentage, it's not a super big penalty for fast attackers but it bloody hurts if you're in armor and using a 2H weapon, it makes it really suboptimal to build a mobile character that uses those items.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Striped_Wolf]

 

And not relevant to the otherwise easily plugged holes in the AI

 

Striped wolf, whenever I just skim through something and see your avatar at the corner of my eye, this is what I see.

 

 

I felt an unyielding urge to inform you of this.

 

Fixed it for you

[Osvir]

There are instances I would say where it would be fair to knock someone prone and then focus on someone else, but knocking someone prone and taking them out is usually the best way to play.

 

Look at the list again (you can comment on Adept Evasion if you want but Johnny already did). I use Knockdown as an example in this discussion out of many examples.

 

I also want to add that, sure, knocking someone down and beating them down is a good way to beat someone down. But it is also a really useful technique to get out of difficult situations, or to move around, or to focus someone else, or get some time. Sure-shot interruptions (mostly).

 

"This is not turn-based!" *sigh*

 

Haven't we had this discussion before and I've explained this to you?

 

"In Turn-Based, you could see Prone, Stun, Paralyze etc. as: You get 2 turns and the enemy gets 1 turn. Without the Slowed Recovery rate, you'd get 3 turns for 1 turn."

 

I.E. "If we compare" or "Equivalent of". If the mechanic from a Realtime game (like Pillars) would be translated into a Turn-Based game, this is what it would do. And if this mechanic would be in a Turn-Based game and be translated into a Realtime game, this is what it would do. There's TONS of abilities in Turn-Based games that are "Add X Effect for 2 Turns on Enemy" or better, "Enemy is Prone for 2 Turns".

 

In turn-based games:

- "Enemy is Prone for 2 Turns" (Enemy gets 0 Turns to do anything*, Player gets 2 Turns to do everything*)

 

In realtime games:

- "Enemy is Prone for 10 Seconds" (Enemy gets 0 Seconds to do anything*, Player gets 10 Seconds to do everything*)

 

* ... within that timeframe.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

So what? I don't think the examples you are using are valid to the discussion. You're trying to argue that using status effects on enemies helps offset the movement penalty, when it doesn't. If you inflict someone with prone, or stunned - the value of that disable is the same no matter whether recovery time exists, or if it doesn't.

 

You don't need to knock people down to move around either, you just use positioning. None of my characters are ever engaged by enemies that I don't want them to be, unless there are simply too many numbers. You can define which of your characters are targeted by enemies by using positioning, all the engagement system does is allow you to override those mistakes a little bit in a different way that you were able to correct them in the Infinity Engine games.

 

If I want to make a roving Barbarian who circles the fight and applies carnage hits on different targets - optimally moving in between attacks, that concept is penalized for including movement in the equation. You are better off standing in the same spot until you kill an enemy and only moving when you have to (to move to a different target after you've already killed one) - and that's boring.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

Fixed it for you

 

such Eldoth. much style. many douche. wow.

 

[Osvir]

So what? I don't think the examples you are using are valid to the discussion. You're trying to argue that using status effects on enemies helps offset the movement penalty, when it doesn't. If you inflict someone with prone, or stunned - the value of that disable is the same no matter whether recovery time exists, or if it doesn't.

 

You don't need to knock people down to move around either, you just use positioning. None of my characters are ever engaged by enemies that I don't want them to be, unless there are simply too many numbers. You can define which of your characters are targeted by enemies by using positioning, all the engagement system does is allow you to override those mistakes a little bit in a different way that you were able to correct them in the Infinity Engine games.

 

If I want to make a roving Barbarian who circles the fight and applies carnage hits on different targets - optimally moving in between attacks, that concept is penalized for including movement in the equation. You are better off standing in the same spot until you kill an enemy and only moving when you have to (to move to a different target after you've already killed one) - and that's boring.

Ah! But you do need to knock enemies down, or stun them, or paralyze them, or get talents and such, if you want to break engagement without taking too much damage.

 

It also helps offset the movement penalty, and I have already explained how.

 

Make a roving Barbarian if you want to make a roving Barbarian. Nothing is stopping you. Use a Barbaric Yell, then move. Or Instill Doubt on the enemies. Debuff them even, and then move. Hobbled, Blinded, all you can think of. Give the enemies an equivalent of the "-25% Slowed Recovery Rate" penalty you get and it will add up. Use a Ranger to interrupt an enemy about to make an attack, so that you get time to both move and attack, before the enemy gets a chance to do anything. Then do the same thing for another one.

 

Use Wild Sprint to get from point A to point B even faster (and you don't need to be in Engagement to use it). I think I saw the Cipher have an ability called "Pain Lock", which heals the character when they take certain damage too, and there's Watchful Presence to aid with any disengagement attacks you might get from using Wild Sprint.

 

But anywas, I do want to try out your Mod(s) at some point, and I hope you'll enjoy or try the ones I intend to make but not before I've finished the game.

[Sensuki]

Osvir, I am not talking about breaking engagement - you can play around the engagement system. You can set it up so that your strikers do not get engaged, you just sit them back a bit at the start so the enemies target your tank, and have them come in after.

 

Use a Barbaric Yell, then move.

 

Why? That slows my recovery. I am best moving next to a target, using Barbaric Yell and then not moving.

 

Debuff them even, and then move. Hobbled, Blinded, all you can think of. Give the enemies an equivalent of the "-25% Slowed Recovery Rate" penalty you get and it will add up. Use a Ranger to interrupt an enemy about to make an attack, so that you get time to both move and attack, before the enemy gets a chance to do anything. Then do the same thing for another one.

Dude - you debuff enemies when you want to attack them. If you are applying a debuff that reduces a defense that you can hit, you want to be wailing on that enemy while they are debuffed - not moving about. Like I said - this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

Use Wild Sprint to get from point A to point B even faster (and you don't need to be in Engagement to use it).

 

Did you read what I said earlier in the thread about Wild Sprint? If you're in recovery and you want to use Wild Sprint, you're better off just not using it if it's a short distance because you'll already be at your destination before the recovery ticks down. If you're a dual wielder, you're better off standing still until Wild Sprint goes off so that you don't suffer from the retarded movement recovery slow - that is degenerate gameplay - the very thing that this game is trying to avoid.

 

I am NOT talking about being engaged. You don't want to move if you're engaged unless something outweighs the cost of the disengagement attacks - such as being in the persistent AoE of Wall of Flame, or Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Removing Recovery time slow while moving will now be included as an optional component in the IE mod, along with quicksave before area transition, rather than after.

 

This will make Shot on the Run useless, but I'll modify the talent post-release.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

Removing Recovery time slow while moving will now be included as an optional component in the IE mod, along with quicksave before area transition, rather than after.

 

This will make Shot on the Run useless, but I'll modify the talent post-release.

 

I never thought of that, but quick-saving after area transition is just so much what. If a game crashes right after area transition due to some unknown issue, it might break the autosave forever, and if the game crashes during area transition, you have to redo the entire previous area.

 

Like what.

[Osvir]

 

Osvir, I am not talking about breaking engagement - you can play around the engagement system. 1) You can set it up so that your strikers do not get engaged, you just sit them back a bit at the start so the enemies target your tank, and have them come in after.
 

Use a Barbaric Yell, then move.

 
2) Why? That slows my recovery. I am best moving next to a target, using Barbaric Yell and then not moving.

1) Haha, I feel somewhat belittled Steam says I have 124 hours on the Beta (I think it's more likely that it is around 100 active hours) so uhm yeah. No, not noob, but I don't optimise until later because I like character concepts more than I like "Master of Combat" characters.

2) Eh well, my bad for not clarifying/giving you the same idea/image. I was recalling a scenario where my Barbarian was off to the side of a Lion group, used Barbaric Yell (hit all of them of course) and then moved in to engage. Lots more happened of course, 6 characters and all that. Think I roved once or twice in that encounter with him.

*Frankly, like I told Luckmann, I believe that the more you optimise, the more you become static. Just look at the meditating Fire Godlike Monk build. Heck, the more you optimize your preparation, your combat, and tactics, the less incentive you create for yourself to move around or do anything out of the ordinary (I'm talking generally, in the Infinity Engine games, Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, Dishonored, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland, WarCraft, driving games and so on = ALL games). If you have the greatest build and greatest preparation and everything, you don't need to do much except "Click Button" and "Ride Train".

An optimal build also makes combat more predictable before it even begins...

 

This will make Shot on the Run useless, but I'll modify the talent post-release.

 

And suddenly everything became predictable...

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68063-keep-pirate-style-pistol-plz/?p=1585497

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Heck, the more you optimize your preparation, your combat, and tactics, the less incentive you create for yourself to move around or do anything out of the ordinary

I don't think so.

 

I love my roving Fighter with 3 Knockdowns per encounter. The movement between attacks makes him wearing armor and using a 2Her (slow recovery) kinda not great, almost the equivalent of a wasted action just from the recovery penalty.

 

Still a good build, but it penalizes the moving style, and it promotes setting it up so that you get aggro'd and knock down three guys really close to you.

 

The stupid thing is it was added to try and make kiting difficult hahah, oh dear.

[Luckmann]

 

Heck, the more you optimize your preparation, your combat, and tactics, the less incentive you create for yourself to move around or do anything out of the ordinary

I don't think so.

 

I love my roving Fighter with 3 Knockdowns per encounter. The movement between attacks makes him wearing armor and using a 2Her (slow recovery) kinda not great, almost the equivalent of a wasted action just from the recovery penalty.

 

Still a good build, but it penalizes the moving style, and it promotes setting it up so that you get aggro'd and knock down three guys really close to you.

 

The stupid thing is it was added to try and make kiting difficult hahah, oh dear.

 

 

The last line encapsulates the entire issue with this entire conversation, I think.

 

I cannot see how this improves anything.

 

Even if it did improve anything, which I still cannot see how it did, we've already been informed that it was introduced to prevent kiting, which we've already settled it doesn't.

 

If it cannot even fulfil it's stated purpose, how can we reasonably argue over whether it's good or not?

 

It fails at performing it's most basic intended function. Anything else in the periphery of that is purely academic. The mechanic has already failed. Miserably.

[View619]

Suggesting that IE mod gets heavy promotion after release. At the very least, players will have the option to avoid some poor design decisions.

[Sensuki]

[Luckmann]

Suggesting that IE mod gets heavy promotion after release. At the very least, players will have the option to avoid some poor design decisions.

 

As it stands, I'll probably just wait until the IE mod gets released before I even start playing. There's some really basic functions in it that just shouldn't be missing from the base game. I won't be removing Engagement, for example, but fixing the moving recovery rate, autosave before transitions, cyan NPC circles (seriously, this has to be one of the dumbest things, having neutrals and allies in the same colour for no reason whatsoever), etc.

 

Before I even boot up the first game, the IE Mod will be there and I'll fix the Attributes myself if I can.

[Sensuki]

I'll just leave this here

 

 

[Osvir]

Comparing it with having no recovery, it becomes harder to kite. No doubt about it.

[Sensuki]

It doesn't lol. Makes no difference to the real scenarios where you kite in the game. I can get six fast guys with ranged weapons and run around with moving recovery mult and ranged recovery mult, and if they're just standard melee enemies they'll have 0 chance of getting me if I don't misclick.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

Sounds like a build built to kite (and it isn't bad that the system allows you to do it, guerilla tactics :D). I'm talking about a standard/diverse/realistic party scenario "What sort of party members will the player most likely have?". The companions aren't going to be all ranged after all, or be built for that purpose.

Unless you're going after adventurers and really want to kite. The game doesn't forbid you to do it   which is why I said it "mitigates" it. Adam said it was designed  to prevent kiting, correct? "Prevented" Does Not Equal "Forbidden" and/or "Impossible".

[Sensuki]

Currently all you need to do to kite is abuse the fog of war bug or AI that don't continuously follow you across the map.

You can kite with normal characters not built for kiting too, btw - you just need more than one of them. You have one guy run around, and the others shoot the enemy (or enemies) chasing him. The guy kiting does not need to even attack, because he's baiting.

 

Movement recovery slow (or even movement recovery pause) does not prevent kiting.

 

It's just simple laws of RTS - if you outnumber the enemy, have faster units or have bigger range - you can kite.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Striped_Wolf]

[Quantics]

I'll just leave this here

 

 

 

 

So the IE mod also adds a 'transparent legs' toggle ? Awesome !

 

 

 

 

 

[GreyZ]

Since my previous posts seems to have been glanced over, I'll just reiterate:

While this is an overall nerf, it is mainly a nerf directed at slow recovery/high damage melee characters, because they were technically more mobile than high recovery/low damage characters. 

Due to recovery times a rogue for example with a 2handed weapon was tactically a much more mobile character then a dual wielding dagger rogue, since if micro'd properly he could move a significant distance between attacks without incurring any dps loss, while a character with a very fast recovery rate could barely move without incurring dps loss.

 

Since this penalty acts as an actual multiplier to your recovery time total, rather than being additive like most other boni and mali are, you are exponentially more penalized the slower your total recovery time is. 

It's a good change imho that gives an incentive to build actual nimble characters as mobile fighters, ie someone equipped with leather and daggers vs someone equipped with a two handed sword and plate.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[Luckmann]

Since my previous posts seems to have been glanced over, I'll just reiterate:

While this is an overall nerf, it is mainly a nerf directed at slow recovery/high damage melee characters, because they were technically more mobile then high recovery/low damage characters. 

Due to recovery times a rogue for example with a 2handed weapon was tactically a much more mobile character then a dual wielding dagger rogue, since if micro'd properly he could move a significant distance between attacks without incurring any dps loss, while a character with a very fast recovery rate could barely move without incurring dps loss.

 

Since this penalty acts as an actual multiplier to your entire recovery time, rather than being additive like most other boni and mali are, you are exponentially more penalized the slower your recovery time is and the longer you are incurring the timer. 

It's a good change imho that gives an incentive to build actual nimble characters as mobile fighters.

 

...

 

I honestly don't know what to say.

 

I realize that most people don't want to read a fourteen-page thread, but at least glance through the first few and the last few.