Israeli Elections

[Volourn]

"Nah, not murder, they are not helpless planes on a mission of peace and mercy. In this scenario they are little Israel trying to force US policy, while the US laughing as Iran fights Israel (though how I don't know) is a possibility, that won't work."

\

\It's murder. Those jets aren't attacking the US or its allies so US attacking them would be murder. Then again, the US doesn't care if their 'allies' get attacked. Just ask Ukraine. LMAO

 

What's really odd, Gorgon, is people actually believe that the Palestinian powers want peace. They enjoy murdering Isrealis AND Palestinians.

[BruceVC]

Netanyahu's changed his tune w.r.t Palestinian state - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netanyahu-backs-off-opposition-to-a-Palestinian-state-NBC-reports-394479

 

 

It's more likely that that bluster reflects his actual views. He's had plenty of time to act on a belief that there should be two states, and he hasn't done anything other than pay lip service to it so he gets invited to the right international shindigs and he gets more stall time. The only progress towards two states there will be with Bibi around is unilateral.

 

I find this whole flip-flopping  by Netanyahu extremely exasperating. But the damage has been done and he has left a very bitter taste in the mouths of the Obama regime 

 

I am of the opinion you will see a different approach to how the USA tries to broker peace  going forward 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

But I am still of the view you will start seeing a  very different stance from the USA towards the Netanyahu regime 

 

 

In the short term I can't imagine the relationship between Netanyahu and the Obama admin could get much worse. There has always been more than a little anti-Israel bias in Obamas dealings in the middle east. From what I was reading in The Atlantic & the Washington Post many Israeli voters don't believe the Obama admin is committed to their security. I can't really blame them.

 

 

I hear you but I think this is an  unfair characterization of the efforts that the Obama administration  has put into Israel and Palestinians. Firstly the USA has always been committed to the security of Israel, meaning if Israel was attacked they would defend it ( not that this likely)

 

The point of contention is that the USA has never changed its view on what it expected from Israel, the two state solution was always what was deemed the best outcome for peace in the region

 

So its bizarre that some  Israelis would think Obama isn't committed to security..because the two state solution is in  fact the best way ensure security in the long term 

 

Israel is attacked almost every day in some way. just because it isn't by uniformed soldiers of a foreign nation does not make it less real. And if a free Palestinian state were to magically appear this very minute nothing will change. Even if the people of the region we willing to live side by side in peace (certainly not something in evidence now)  the governments of Iran, Egypt, and even Saudi Arabia (if the truth be told) are heavily invested in arming and antagonizing a Palestinian insurgency. That whole region is a mess.  

 

 

Okay so let me ask you something different, what in your view could the Obama administration do  additionally  to alleviate the concerns from some Israelis that they don't care about there security?

 

So lets say you were the president of the USA and the situation is exactly what is it at the moment...would you bomb Iran? Because thats what some Israelis want?

 

I am not trying to catch you out but I hear this criticism about Obama and I'm interested what else people realistically expect the USA to do?

[Rostere]

And, hardly anyone on the  world stage respects them.

 

Why did you add this?

 

If there is one positive thing that can be said about Obama - regardless of whether you are Republican or Democrat - it's that he has increased the standing of the US in the world.

 

I bet with a Republican president, he'd probably back off his stance.

 

Wow, you really have literally no idea of what this is all about, do you?

 

So its bizarre that some  Israelis would think Obama isn't committed to security..because the two state solution is in  fact the best way ensure security in the long term 

 

Pretty much this. Obama is like a babysitter to a spoiled and irresponsible child, the Republicans being a creepy relative handing out booze to minors.

 

Netanyahu's changed his tune w.r.t Palestinian state - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netanyahu-backs-off-opposition-to-a-Palestinian-state-NBC-reports-394479

 

So funny trying to piece together this. "Well, you know, I WOULD like a two-state solution, but I've also sworn I will never make it happen, because, uh..." Problem, Obama?

 

Israel is attacked almost every day in some way.

 

Lol.

 

Israel have their foot firmly planted on the neck of Palestine and diplomacy isn't worth giving that up, plain and simple. It also follows that as long as that is the case relations are never going to improve. 

 

This is the truth as long as the intermediator does not wield both a whip and a carrot. Then they will have to make a choice about what is most valuable.

 

Here's an article about the consequences of Netanyahu's victory.

 

A few excerpts:

 

"Ending the Occupation: This is a far more complex issue. For decades, the U.S. could say that Israel and Palestine merely needed to negotiate. One hesitates to explain, yet again, at the risk of boring the reader, that negotiations can only take place between two entities, each of which has something the other wants, that can only be obtained by surrendering something it has. Israel can take whatever it wants from Palestine with complete impunity, granted by the U.S. and condoned by the international community. Why should Israel negotiate? By doing so, it has something to lose, and little to gain. The status quo provides it with nothing to lose and everything to gain."

 

"Negotiations: For many years, the U.S. has prided itself on its efforts to start, restart, sponsor and move forward nonsensical peace talks. U.S. elected officials, when asked about the brutal occupation, could always mouth worthless phrases about ‘returning to the bargaining table’. A new catchphrase will have to be established, but one thinks in vain to find one."

 

"International Law: Will the U.S. now put some pressure on Israel to abide by international law? The U.S. has used its veto power countless times to protect Israel from any consequences of its violations of law. The hypocrisy of doing so is clear. One example is telling. In February of 2011, then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, vetoed a resolution condemning Israeli settlement activity in occupied Palestine. In doing so, she said, astonishingly, that while the U.S. sees “the folly and illegitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity, we think it unwise for this council to attempt to resolve the core issues that divide Israelis and Palestinians”. Since the fairy tale of negotiations has now dissolved, will the U.S. now think that, perhaps, ‘this council’ (U.N. Security Council) is indeed the place to ‘resolve the core issues that divide Israelis and Palestinians’?"

• Negotiations: The fact that Mr. Netanyahu never had any intention of negotiating in goodfaith should have been clear, since he continued building illegal settlements as so‐called negotiations continued. The Israeli military never slowed in their brutal oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank, never stopped arresting without charge men, women and children, and never stopped protecting the murderous crimes of illegal settlers. What sincerity and ‘good faith’ could possibly attend those actions?
• Ending the Occupation: This is a far more complex issue. For decades, the U.S. could say that Israel and Palestine merely needed to negotiate. One hesitates to explain, yet again, at the risk of boring the reader, that negotiations can only take place between two entities, each of which has something the other wants, that can only be obtained by surrendering something it has. Israel can take whatever it wants from Palestine with complete impunity, granted by the U.S. and condoned by the international community. Why should Israel negotiate? By doing so, it has something to lose, and little to gain. The status quo provides it with nothing to lose and everything to gain.
• - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahus-victory-%e2%80%90#sthash.g3AGiUUV.dpuf

Negotiations: The fact that Mr. Netanyahu never had any intention of negotiating in goodfaith should have been clear, since he continued building illegal settlements as so‐called negotiations continued. The Israeli military never slowed in their brutal oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank, never stopped arresting without charge men, women and children, and never stopped protecting the murderous crimes of illegal settlers. What sincerity and ‘good faith’ could possibly attend those actions? - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahus-victory-%e2%80%90#sthash.g3AGiUUV.dpuf

[Volourn]

"The Palestinian governments never slowed in their brutal oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank, never stopped arresting without charge men, women and children,"

 

Fixed.

[Oerwinde]

"The Palestinian governments never slowed in their brutal oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank, never stopped arresting without charge men, women and children,"

 

Fixed.

I may be misinformed, but I think you're referring to Hamas in Gaza, not Fatah in the West Bank. Fatah may be horribly corrupt, but I don't think they've been brutal.

[Rostere]

Sorry for the botched copy/paste in my last post, couldn't see that last part while writing.

[Rostere]

 

"The Palestinian governments never slowed in their brutal oppression of Palestinians in the West Bank, never stopped arresting without charge men, women and children,"

 

Fixed.

I may be misinformed, but I think you're referring to Hamas in Gaza, not Fatah in the West Bank. Fatah may be horribly corrupt, but I don't think they've been brutal.

 

Actually, the truth is that Fatah repeatedly arrest people in the West Bank without formal accusations... When they are believed to be planning terrorist attacks against Israelis.

[Zoraptor]

And (to an extent at least) supporters of Hamas as well. It's one of those catch-22s, if Israel imprisons people without charge (or shoots them or whatever) it's fine, as they're preventing terrorism. If the PLO does it they're arbitrarily imprisoning people without cause and are Evil!!!- but also, if they don't they're allowing terrorists to roam free and are therefore also Evil!!! It's a perfect logical singularity from which not a single iota of reason can escape.

 

Vologic at its finest in other words, and quite understandable in that respect since Volo always relies on FACT!s rather than facts- it's just a shame that so many people in international politics subscribe to exactly the same sort of 'logic'.

[Volourn]

"I may be misinformed, but I think you're referring to Hamas in Gaza, not Fatah in the West Bank. Fatah may be horribly corrupt, but I don't think they've been brutal."

 

\They'rr aligned with Hamas.

 

 

 

"And (to an extent at least) supporters of Hamas as well. It's one of those catch-22s, if Israel imprisons people without charge (or shoots them or whatever) it's fine, as they're preventing terrorism. If the PLO does it they're arbitrarily imprisoning people without cause and are Evil!!!- but also, if they don't they're allowing terrorists to roam free and are therefore also Evil!!! It's a perfect logical singularity from which not a single iota of reason can escape.

 

Vologic at its finest in other words, and quite understandable in that respect since Volo always relies on FACT!s rather than facts- it's just a shame that so many people in international politics subscribe to exactly the same sort of 'logic'."

 

\You are making an error in your illogic. Don't make ASSumptions. I don't agree with everything Isreal does. Nice try, though.

[Wrath of Dagon]

PA is too weak and unpopular to make concessions needed for peace. The Palestinian public opinion is also firmly against it. Also if Israeli troops were removed for the West Bank, Hamas would take over and create another terror state. Thus Israelis know there's no way to advance the peace process, and all sincere attempts on their part previously have failed for those very reasons.

[obyknven]

 Hypocritical Muricans are initiators of Iranian nuclear program.  They never worried so much nor about Jews, nor about Israel state, they are never be a friends of Israel. Israel and Jews are nothing more to them than cannon fodder, and Murica can backstab Israel in any moment, by same way as they backstab many other "friends" of Murica.

 

 

Happily Jews are quite smart ,  their last elections prove it yet another times.  

[Volourn]

Wait... Oby is pro Isreal posting? I gotta rethink my pro Isreal stance... L0L

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32026995

 

Playing nice now, it seems.

[Ineth]

Well it's not like Netanyahu's political stance makes much of a difference w.r.t. to whether or not there will be peace between Israelis and Palestinians in the near term. There (unfortunately) won't be. Even if Netanyahu and his government all turned into certified flower-carrying pacifist hippies, there wouldn't be.

 

There's absolutely nothing the Israeli government could do to make lasting peace happen in the near term.

No amount of concessions (territorial or otherwise) from Israel right now, would bring about peace.

 

Not with Hamas who has made the dream of eradicating every last Jew from the Middle East it's raison d'être, and not with Fatah whose leaders have repeatedly sworn in front of their followers that a Palestinian state established next to Israel would just be used as a stronger position to continue the long-term fight for a Jew-free grand Palestinian state in place of Israel.

And not with a Palestinian population which - as the polls show - overwhelmingly agrees with (and expects) this course of action from their governments.

 

The "peace process" is, at this point in history, little more than occupational therapy for US presidents.

 

One can only hope that with increasing access to wealth, education, and trade/globalization/interconnection, the next generation of Palestinians will realize that they too have something to loose by continuing their violent "struggle" for a Jew-free Palestine and will accept Israel as their neighbor - and then peace will be possible. Of course, Antizionists dread this prospect (for which they have coined the term "Normalization") like nothing else.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ineth

[Valsuelm]

The following is a speech given in 2012 by Miko Peled, who was born in Jerusalem into a famous and influential Israeli Zionist family. His father was a famous General in the Israeli Army, in which Miko also served time. Even if you know the history of the region well, this presentation is very much worth watching all the way through.

 

Edited March 24, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Ineth]

Netanyahu is a fear mongering warmongering piece of fermented swine feces. On my list of evil leaders of nations, he's #1.

 

What a level-headed and fair-minded statement. Totally doesn't make you come across as a fanatic who has fallen in with a bigoted hate movement.

[Malcador]

Ah, you're one of these "against Israel == Nazi" people, aren't you?

[Valsuelm]

 

Netanyahu is a fear mongering warmongering piece of fermented swine feces. On my list of evil leaders of nations, he's #1.

 

What a level-headed and fair-minded statement. Totally doesn't make you come across as a fanatic who has fallen in with a bigoted hate movement.

 

 

Very leveled headed and extremely fair.

 

Netanyahu has earned his spot as evil leader #1. However, he is not worthy of hate, and there's no bigotry here. Bibi is indeed a fear monger as well as a warmonger, and expressing my disgust for such an individual /= bigotry nor does it equate to hate. Attempting to say such things belies just how weak your own thoughts and arguments are.

 

If you choose to interpret what I said the way you do, so be it. Your interpretation of things as I've read them make many of the adolescently minded trolls on this forum look like very insightful and astute individuals. You, perhaps more than anyone else that's read this thread should watch the video I linked above, as well as this one, and this one.

[Volourn]

I bet you support Surpeme NK Leader.  A man who mass murders and his own people and threatens to mass murder entire countries  before breakfeast for ****s and giggles. But, some Isreali douchebag who won't suck Obama's **** is #1 evil leader? L0LZ

 

 

Also, on Obama... he seems to live in topsy turvy world where he sucks up to US' enemies because he beleioves 'being nice wins heart' but threatens to murder allies' citiczens, spits on his countries' closest neighbour, tries to bully  various European allies,, and breaks promises to an ally to protect them out of cowardice and sits by and allows them to be invaded and conquered.  In reverse, he is giving Iran everything they want, wagging his useless finger at Russia while let them walk all over him, bowing down to the Cubans (not a huge deal imo), playing nice with NK, etc., etc. LMAO