Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Nonek]

Its funny Nonek but when someone says things like  " I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering " this usually comes  from someone who lives in a first world country and doesn't really know any other lifestyle. And I'm not judging you, I love the UK and think you are very fortunate to be a citizen of such a progressive and important country. And the UK is also part of the West for purposes of this discussion  But you being a citizen of a first world country has obviously blinded you in some areas if you think Putins actions in Ukraine shouldn't be criticized. They must and should be condemned because you need to understand why the West is passing sanctions on Russia as this could have an impact on the UK on some level in the future so you should at least understand the motivation behind the sanctions 

 

Also can you stop trying to suggest I am a hypocrite because I say I care about womens rights and also go to strip clubs. I am well aware of your constant attempts to get a reaction from me. You actually tend to repeat this point, using innuendo or course, but you have never bothered to actually ask me if I see the "contradiction ". Also I have always considered this flawed criticism from you  to be really petulant and really should be below you intellectually ...at least until you know my official stance 

 

But since you asked me in a more polite way I will answer you so you don't have to keep repeating yourself in the hope I will respond

 

I am going to assume you don't go to strip clubs or have friends that are strippers or escorts ?. Because if you did you would know your average strip club doesn't need to use girls that are victims of human trafficking. The girls that come into countries like the UK through cartels and smuggling rings don't work legally, they normally don't have access to there  passports and almost all money they make goes to the cartel or there pimp. Its a terrible life and I absolutely reject it 

 

The girls I know who work in the industry are there of there own free will, no one controls them and they do that type of work for money to live on

 

I don't judge them at all and there lifestyle choice is completely different to the seedy world of human enslavement you are referring to 

 

I have travelled and lived in several other countries Bruce, and have over three decades of experience travelling all over the world, your insinuation is factually incorrect as always. I have views on the Ukraine crisis, but they are not simplistic and so I do not air them, there are startling similarities to previous cold war conflicts that do not automatically mean I favour one side excessively. This is an international argument I have seen before, that has born bitter fruit and only harmed the nation caught between ideologies. Only the simplistic believe that this is simple.

 

In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable.

 

Edit: This is why I have no respect for you or your opinions, or anybody else who abuses women as you do.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nonek

[Longknife]

In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable.

 

 

*Depending on where he lives. Though of course I don't believe he resides in a country like the Netherlands or Germany that legalizes and provides support for prostitutes.

 

 

 

Also, hello everyone. What the HELL are we talking about?

[Nonek]

You're right Longknife, I got carried away listening to the abusers piffle, i'll just end my conversation with him there as I can already predict his responses. Apologies for dragging the thread down, the hypocrisy simply disgusts me.

 

Edit: Especially so as a father of daughters, this laughing abuse off sickens me.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nonek

[Barothmuk]

You're right Longknife, I got carried away

Nah, conditions are still pretty ****ty in the legalized countries.

 

The Nordic model is the way to go.

[BruceVC]

 

Its funny Nonek but when someone says things like  " I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering " this usually comes  from someone who lives in a first world country and doesn't really know any other lifestyle. And I'm not judging you, I love the UK and think you are very fortunate to be a citizen of such a progressive and important country. And the UK is also part of the West for purposes of this discussion  But you being a citizen of a first world country has obviously blinded you in some areas if you think Putins actions in Ukraine shouldn't be criticized. They must and should be condemned because you need to understand why the West is passing sanctions on Russia as this could have an impact on the UK on some level in the future so you should at least understand the motivation behind the sanctions 

 

Also can you stop trying to suggest I am a hypocrite because I say I care about womens rights and also go to strip clubs. I am well aware of your constant attempts to get a reaction from me. You actually tend to repeat this point, using innuendo or course, but you have never bothered to actually ask me if I see the "contradiction ". Also I have always considered this flawed criticism from you  to be really petulant and really should be below you intellectually ...at least until you know my official stance 

 

But since you asked me in a more polite way I will answer you so you don't have to keep repeating yourself in the hope I will respond

 

I am going to assume you don't go to strip clubs or have friends that are strippers or escorts ?. Because if you did you would know your average strip club doesn't need to use girls that are victims of human trafficking. The girls that come into countries like the UK through cartels and smuggling rings don't work legally, they normally don't have access to there  passports and almost all money they make goes to the cartel or there pimp. Its a terrible life and I absolutely reject it 

 

The girls I know who work in the industry are there of there own free will, no one controls them and they do that type of work for money to live on

 

I don't judge them at all and there lifestyle choice is completely different to the seedy world of human enslavement you are referring to 

 

I have travelled and lived in several other countries Bruce, and have over three decades of experience travelling all over the world, your insinuation is factually incorrect as always. I have views on the Ukraine crisis, but they are not simplistic and so I do not air them, there are startling similarities to previous cold war conflicts that do not automatically mean I favour one side excessively. This is an international argument I have seen before, that has born bitter fruit and only harmed the nation caught between ideologies. Only the simplistic believe that this is simple.

 

In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable.

 

 

Better dead than red Nonek ...better dead than red  

 

Sometimes the reasons for political and military  conflicts are nuanced and nebulous and it becomes difficult to comment as  a person doesn't want to be seen to be unfairly criticizing a particular country 

 

 But Russian interference in Ukraine is not one of those examples and because it is relevant to the UK and the EU I'm surprised you suddenly don't have a opinion, I mean you have an opinion on basically  everything else 

 

But I am more concerned with your view that you may favor Russia in this development ? Considering the fact you are a proud Brit who also is informed about world events I find this view most incongruous?

 

Now back to the strippers discussion, I consider the girls I know in the industry to be friends in the party scene. So I have a real relationship with them that I can imagine is difficult to believe or understand. And you right Nonek, I dont go to strip clubs to discuss SJ issues with the strippers. They would get annoyed with me and think I was being patronizing if I said to them " do you girls know that you aren't helping the greater cause of reducing the objectification of women in society by working in a strip club " 

 

Sorry Nonek I'm not perfect and can't always raise and enforce SJ issues. Sometimes its just not feasible and in the case of strip clubs its not necessary to raise it when you there 

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

 

I'll expand what I mean in relation to modern leftism in a bit. Making dinner.

Expansion.

 

What I mean is the modern (Western) left’s analyses and praxis is highly individualistic and highly submerged in the consumer mentality.

 

Although they’ll certainly pay lip service to X oppressive structure their understanding of it comes from an ultra-liberal idealist perspective so they inevitably always focus on how this effects the individual and more importantly how the individual chooses to respond to this. This is where we get tumblr po-mo nonsense like “agency” and free choices which leads to ridiculous positions like support for institutions such as prostitution or pornography and support for acts like beating and strangling your girl-friend. There are of course those who are somewhat more radical and they’ll highlight that such choices are not free but due to being ignorant of or rejecting the existence of a societal “superstructure” they will then fall back on liberal tactics where they try to challenge them through consumer habits and consumer “shaming”.

 

Another example would be the modern “gender” and “social justice” movements. Gender, rather than being a social construct, a hierarchy or what have you is now a way for the individual to express their own individual style and is an expression of your own agency. Rather than examining what creates and reinforces gender, what purpose it fills and who it harms and benefits the modern leftist instead focuses on “finding which gender fits best” which tends to mean buying a bunch of products and then throwing a label on it. Likewise with “social justice” the emphasis seems to be less concerned hammering out concrete tactics to challenge the existing power structure and more focused on “performance”. I.e. Wearing the right clothes, drinking the right coffees, buying from the right people and shaming those who don’t .

 

Rather than being a movement for liberation and challenging the status-quo modern leftism has reduced itself to a commodity which one can buy to portray an image of uniqueness and individuality.

 

Honestly this is pretty rambley, but what do you expect it’s nearly half past one in the morning here.

 

 

Pretty what i said, just more eloquent. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable.

 

 

 

*Depending on where he lives. Though of course I don't believe he resides in a country like the Netherlands or Germany that legalizes and provides support for prostitutes.

 

 Both prostitution and the purchasing of services from prostitutes is illegal in South Africa. So Nonek is correct in this case.

Also, hello everyone. What the HELL are we talking about?

Circular arguments, which pretty much happens any time we don't have any happenings.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

 

 

So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto?

 

No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me

 

I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed

 

I do think the  reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers  by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming

 

The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change 

 

 

So when we have demonstrated the similarities of destructive lines of thought to one philosophy, but you still think think that one positive and other is not without telling the difference? Oh wow.

 

 

But those are two different things that you are making the same. I had no real issue with the Alexander article but I did find it a little insulting to white gamers because she generalized and didn't explain properly who she was referring to when she said " gamer " so understandably people who were already annoyed reacted a certain way

 

But come on guys...a few generalizations shouldn't effect us and cause us to feel we need to respond in such a dramatic way? 

 

Anyway those other points are ideological statements that applied to Communism...not really the same thing as Leigh Alexanders view on transformation in the gaming industry ?

 

 

See Baroth's post.

[BruceVC]

You're right Longknife, I got carried away listening to the abusers piffle, i'll just end my conversation with him there as I can already predict his responses. Apologies for dragging the thread down, the hypocrisy simply disgusts me.

 No it doesn't, to be truly disgusted you would have to actually care about what happens to strippers and escorts and we both know you are just feigning " disgust " at the fact that I " say I care about womens rights and go to strip clubs " because you think it proves I'm a hypocrite  " which would be a good way to dismiss what I say....I mean who would listen to a hypocrite ?

 

Sorry to disappoint you Nonek but I am not embarrassed or see any hypocrisy by the fact I know strippers..back to he drawing board for you or at least stop bringing it up because I believe I have adequately answered the question

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable.

 

 

*Depending on where he lives. Though of course I don't believe he resides in a country like the Netherlands or Germany that legalizes and provides support for prostitutes.

 

 Both prostitution and the purchasing of services from prostitutes is illegal in South Africa. So Nonek is correct in this case.

Also, hello everyone. What the HELL are we talking about?

Circular arguments, which pretty much happens any time we don't have any happenings.

 

 

Since when did we start discussing the legality of visiting a strip club as if its relevant?

If you think the legality of visiting a strip is what should influence your decision then I suggest you get out more KP

 

All the places I visit are legal entertainment venues, see below

 

http://thegrandrivonia.co.za/

 

http://www.teazers.co.za/menu.php

 

http://www.lollipoplounge.co.za/door.php?return=/&e=3600

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

We were talking about prostitutes Bruce, try reading what you're quoting. Perhaps you should apply your online values to your personal life and stop using the services of prostitutes?

[BruceVC]

We were talking about prostitutes Bruce, try reading what you're quoting. Perhaps you should apply your online values to your personal life and stop using the services of prostitutes?

 

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them.  And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus 

 

What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that  but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

We were talking about prostitutes Bruce, try reading what you're quoting. Perhaps you should apply your online values to your personal life and stop using the services of prostitutes?

 

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them. And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus

 

What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice

You've previously admitted to using the services of prostitutes Bruce. Nonek is calling your frequent attendance of strip clubs hypocritical but stating that it's your choice so he's fine with it, however he finds your use of prostitutes disgusting and hypocritical. I'm sure attacking Nonek's sincerity is far easier than confronting your own hypocrisy and support of a system that harms real life women.

 

Why do you use the services of prostitutes Bruce? Why support something that treats women that badly?

Edited March 27, 2015 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

 

 

We were talking about prostitutes Bruce, try reading what you're quoting. Perhaps you should apply your online values to your personal life and stop using the services of prostitutes?

 

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them.  And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus 

 

What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that  but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice

You've previously admitted to using the services of prostitutes Bruce. Nonek is calling your frequent attendance of strip clubs hypocritical but stating that it's your choice so he's fine with it, however he finds your use of prostitutes disgusting and hypocritical.

 

Why do you use the services of prostitutes Bruce?

 

 

 

 

We were talking about prostitutes Bruce, try reading what you're quoting. Perhaps you should apply your online values to your personal life and stop using the services of prostitutes?

 

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them.  And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus 

 

What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that  but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice

You've previously admitted to using the services of prostitutes Bruce. Nonek is calling your frequent attendance of strip clubs hypocritical but stating that it's your choice so he's fine with it, however he finds your use of prostitutes disgusting and hypocritical.

 

Why do you use the services of prostitutes Bruce?

 

 

Oh so we  are making a big deal about something I  said in the past and not focusing on my actual current posts ...okay typically this would be where you guys say a person is now debating in bad faith but I don't mind  because I sometimes rehash older points people have made

 

I am not prepared to explain how I know and interact with escorts unless you are  really interested? I'll happily explain if  is this isn't some stratagem to try to catch me out..so do you really want to know?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

How do you reconcile your stated beliefs on women's issues with your patronage of prostitutes, something that actively contributes to the exploitation of women?

[BruceVC]

How do you reconcile your stated beliefs on women's issues with your patronage of prostitutes, something that actively contributes to the exploitation of women?

 

You see now I'm disappointed but not surprised, I was hoping you had real some interest apart from a lame attempt to try to prove I'm a hypocrite...which is exactly what Nonek keeps suggesting 

 

So there is no need for me to explain  because you don't really care and its waste of my time

 

I blame Nonek for your parroting of his views as he makes sense on loads of topics. I just don't agree with his GG stance...well duh !!  

 

I know you guys get on well and are forum friends. I respect that but  he is wrong about this and now you are as well

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Using the services of prostitutes while taking the positions you do, such as banning prostitutes from GTA, is very hypocritical Bruce. Since you are either unwilling or incapable of explaining how you reconcile your stated beliefs with your actions, I must assume that you are either a very elaborate parody of a neo-liberal capitalist or a hypocrite.

 

In either case, I will discard any input you have when it comes to gender issues.

[BruceVC]

Using the services of prostitutes while taking the positions you do, such as banning prostitutes from GTA, is very hypocritical Bruce. Since you are either unwilling or incapable of explaining how you reconcile your stated beliefs with your actions, I must assume that you are either a very elaborate parody of a neo-liberal capitalist or a hypocrite.

 

In either case, I will discard any input you have when it comes to gender issues.

 

 

 

Oh stop ....its not like you ever cared about what I said when it came to gender issues.  In fact I can't remember  a time where you ever supported my posts on SJ developments?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Using the services of prostitutes while taking the positions you do, such as banning prostitutes from GTA, is very hypocritical Bruce. Since you are either unwilling or incapable of explaining how you reconcile your stated beliefs with your actions, I must assume that you are either a very elaborate parody of a neo-liberal capitalist or a hypocrite.

In either case, I will discard any input you have when it comes to gender issues.

 

 

 

 

Oh stop ....its not like you ever cared about what I said when it came to gender issues.  In fact I can't remember  a time where you ever supported my posts on SJ developments?

Its true, I don't value what you say because you seem to be a hypocrite and most of your SJ topics focus on petty stuff like banning "bossy".

[Zoraptor]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

 

(this thread gets derailed this way just about every iteration and nothing constructive has ever come out of it. If you cannot little i ignore him- the best solution- you may have to consider big I Ignoring him because otherwise the exact same thing with the exact same people will happen again, in a months time)

[BruceVC]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

 

(this thread gets derailed this way just about every iteration and nothing constructive has ever come out of it. If you cannot little i ignore him- the best solution- you may have to consider big I Ignoring him because otherwise the exact same thing with the exact same people will happen again, in a months time)

 

So your contribution towards this thread is that people should ignore me , thats ironic because thats a comment that isnt relevant to the thread? But I suppose you wanted to say something so that must make it relevant     

 

Did it ever occur to you that this thread isnt exactly active anymore and maybe people enjoy discussing the  SJ issue I raise, even if it is to disagree with me  I assume you are not suggesting that people on this thread can't think for themselves and they need you to tell them the solution is " just to ignore people who try to derail the conversation" 

 

Yes I think people on this thread understand what the ignore function means and how to use it but thanks for explaining it....again 

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

Removing pixalated jugs is progressive: http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/03/aesop-games-interview-being-denied-media-coverage-for-sociopolitical-stances/

Progressiveness is awesome! everybody join the hate-train: http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/03/dev-interview-denied-publication-because-it-wasnt-anti-gamergate/

Edited March 27, 2015 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

Removing pixalated jugs is progressive: http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/03/aesop-games-interview-being-denied-media-coverage-for-sociopolitical-stances/

Progressiveness is awesome! everybody join the hate-train: http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/03/dev-interview-denied-publication-because-it-wasnt-anti-gamergate/

Edited March 28, 2015 by BruceVC

[Longknife]

Why don't SJWs go after some of the pranking community instead?

 

 

 

 

It's so clearly staged and it's sad to see the amount of comments on the video of guys thinking all women are like this, let alone that the video is real. Now I've got a tone of "Gold Digger prank" videos, each more fake than the last, followed by a bunch of dumbasses convincing themselves all women are like this to cover up for their own social ineptitudes.

[Volourn]

Plenty of women are like that. As for video being fake, it happens. But, yeah, absolutely fake. L0L Just like there are men who are gold diggers. Your point? Oh, I forgot.   Women are perfect and they can't be criticized. What's funny it shows how little you think of women cause you see them as weak and pathetic. Me, on the other hand,s ee women as string independent adult human beings who can handle life including criticism. So why do you see women as pathetic children, huh?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Volourn