Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Orogun01]

 

 

I do. I guarantee it is pro GGers  who support PE/Obsidian because its goal of being old skool (questionable quality aside.  SJWs as a group (not you) hate that type of game because it's not 'new age' or artsy enough. If anti Ggers had their way Obsidian would be out of business despite the fact that Obsidian seems to be anti GG and pro SJW (but not the extreme that silly BIO is).

I think they just decided that paying lip service was better than being confrontational, a lot of people just make that one tiny change just to get them off their back.

Quite frankly I don't think that Obsidian cares about political views as much as having good quality, so when they do inclusive things is because they thought it was a good idea.

Which is probably why Obsidian's gay characters in NV are liked and Bio's pandering is torn down, as the latter is a very see through attempt.

 

Well you may see the changes as insignificant but I  think for minority groups they matter. For example in PoE we see African American races that have been very well received.

 

Well, as the one from a minority group I can tell you that no self respecting human being likes lip service or pandering. Its like being given scraps from the table after asking to have a seat.

Diversity in RPGs works because it lets players craft their character's background to suit their likes, but I don't expect them to be an in depth story about race, race relations and politics.

Quite frankly, if someone is so immature that they can't play a game or relate to a character because of skin color then it's their loss. I pity anyone that hasn't played Portal just because of a female main character. So it's a moot point to dwell on race, to try and force people to write stories of and from an ethnic group that isn't theirs and that they have no appreciation for. All just because some believe that its somehow moral to push false equality onto others.

 

@Barothmuk:

That's the same Josh Swayer that defended Obsidian's use of rape in Fallout New Vegas.

[Barothmuk]

Basically I'm saying its good to see non-white races with there own culture and history in games like PoE

I know, just a pet peeve of mine.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I do. I guarantee it is pro GGers  who support PE/Obsidian because its goal of being old skool (questionable quality aside.  SJWs as a group (not you) hate that type of game because it's not 'new age' or artsy enough. If anti Ggers had their way Obsidian would be out of business despite the fact that Obsidian seems to be anti GG and pro SJW (but not the extreme that silly BIO is).

I think they just decided that paying lip service was better than being confrontational, a lot of people just make that one tiny change just to get them off their back.

Quite frankly I don't think that Obsidian cares about political views as much as having good quality, so when they do inclusive things is because they thought it was a good idea.

Which is probably why Obsidian's gay characters in NV are liked and Bio's pandering is torn down, as the latter is a very see through attempt.

 

Well you may see the changes as insignificant but I  think for minority groups they matter. For example in PoE we see African American races that have been very well received.

 

Well, as the one from a minority group I can tell you that no self respecting human being likes lip service or pandering. Its like being given scraps from the table after asking to have a seat.

Diversity in RPGs works because it lets players craft their character's background to suit their likes, but I don't expect them to be an in depth story about race, race relations and politics.

Quite frankly, if someone is so immature that they can't play a game or relate to a character because of skin color then it's their loss. I pity anyone that hasn't played Portal just because of a female main character. So it's a moot point to dwell on race, to try and force people to write stories of and from an ethnic group that isn't theirs and that they have no appreciation for. All just because some believe that its somehow moral to push false equality onto others.

 

@Barothmuk:

That's the same Josh Swayer that defended Obsidian's use of rape in Fallout New Vegas.

 

 

You make some good points about how relevant a persons gaming experience is really  impacted and influenced  by them identifying with the the race or social components of a game

 

Maybe it is not really relevant but I think it is for many. I know some may see the inclusion of Black\African American races in a game like PoE as pandering but I still think it is significant...especially if you come from a marginalized group that generally has no representation in games ?

 

As a white person its hard for me to say " it shouldn't matter "  because every game really has an option to play as a white person so I guess how would we feel if games never offered any cultural exposure to the Europeans  ( white people ) ?

 

And yes I am aware you are from a  minority group, you Cuban right, so thats why your opinion is interesting and relevant 

[BruceVC]

 

Basically I'm saying its good to see non-white races with there own culture and history in games like PoE

I know, just a pet peeve of mine.

 

 

When you say this has a tendency to annoy you do you mean you don't see enough of this? Or do you mean the bad implementations of inclusivity ?

[Orogun01]

You make some good points about how relevant a persons gaming experience is really  impacted and influenced  by them identifying with the the race or social components of a game

 

Maybe it is not really relevant but I think it is for many. I know some may see the inclusion of Black\African American races in a game like PoE as pandering but I still think it is significant...especially if you come from a marginalized group that generally has no representation in games ?

 

As a white person its hard for me to say " it shouldn't matter "  because every game really has an option to play as a white person so I guess how would we feel if games never offered any cultural exposure to the Europeans  ( white people ) ?

 

And yes I am aware you are from a  minority group, you Cuban right, so thats why your opinion is interesting and relevant

So far Hispanic characters in Video Games have generally speaking no depth besides an accent, it generally means nothing to me other than needing subtitles. My point is that storytelling in games is still very underdeveloped they haven't nailed down presentation yet. It is difficult to get any character depth and to add themes in a meaningful way that it is congruent with gameplay mechanics. So it makes no difference to me whether I play as white cardboard cut out or a black cardboard cut out, I think that's a graver issue that impedes any meaningful representation that minorities might hope to have. On the other hand, maybe I prefer to play as white guy and my choice shouldn't be demonized by zealots.

The reality is that the snow white people that claim to want inclusivity have **** all  in depth knowledge of other cultures and just hold to the notion that if it isn't white its nice. They say they want inclusivity but for all they know we already have it as games could be realistically depicting minorities and they would still complain because they don't like the reality.

Any meaningful change will come from growth of and within the industry and the facilitation of game production and creating better tools (another grave issue that impedes any meaningful representation) as it will naturally become a more diverse industry. Maybe then we won't have to tolerate the yelps of white guilt from whiny entitled snots whom want things to change but don't contribute any action towards it or worse, fight against it.

[Barothmuk]

When you say this has a tendency to annoy you do you mean you don't see enough of this? Or do you mean the bad implementations of inclusivity ?

I mean when people say "African American" when they mean black or African.

[Volourn]

"I think they just decided that paying lip service was better than being confrontational, a lot of people just make that one tiny change just to get them off their back. "

 

That tatic doesn't work. Time and time again people have tried that and the SJWs find something to complain about. btw, Obsidian games have been targted by SJWs  hardcore by SJWs. SJWs  (with exceptions of course) loathe Obsidian games. Even BIO, the SJW panderers publicly (so much that they harass, bully, intimidate, and attack GGers for ****s and giggles) are asttacked repeatedly by anti GGers even while being praised by them. LMAO

 

\ You can't kiss anti GGers butt because that just gives them an opening to treat you even worse. Give them a bone they want the whole damn skeleton - and if it's a dead white male gamer or some poor woman game developer with internalized misogny all the better.

 

 

:)

 

 

P.S. Afrikan Amerikan = black is pure nonsense. But, hey, in Kanada I guess they are Afrikan Kanadian.  Are there Afrikan Kubans too?

 

Why is it okay to simply say white but not black now? RIDICULOUS.  If you are black you might be from Afrika or  maybe you are just Amerikan. I  don't refer to myself as Euopean Native  Kanadian. L0LZ

 

 

 

"And yes I am aware you are from a  minority group, you Cuban right, so thats why your opinion is interesting and relevant "
 

Finally you admit to your racism. White people don't mattter. LMAO

 

SJW is SJWing. Not news at 12. Just typical hateful disgusting racism.

 

\I guarantee  you Obsidian would be warning you if you had said if you are black your opinion was uninteresting and irrelevant.

 

2015 where racism is a-ok  according to those who claim they are anti racism. L0LZ

 

That's why anti Ggers, SJWs, and feminists are evil. Equalists and Ggers  are all about true equality.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Volourn

[Barothmuk]

"I think they just decided that paying lip service was better than being confrontational, a lot of people just make that one tiny change just to get them off their back. "

 

That tatic doesn't work. Time and time again people have tried that and the SJWs find something to complain about. btw, Obsidian games have been targted by SJWs hardcore by SJWs. SJWs (with exceptions of course) loathe Obsidian games. Even BIO, the SJW panderers publicly (so much that they harass, bully, intimidate, and attack GGers for ****s and giggles) are asttacked repeatedly by anti GGers even while being praised by them. LMAO

 

\ You can't kiss anti GGers butt because that just gives them an opening to treat you even worse. Give them a bone they want the whole damn skeleton - and if it's a dead white male gamer or some poor woman game developer with internalized misogny all the better.

[BruceVC]

"I think they just decided that paying lip service was better than being confrontational, a lot of people just make that one tiny change just to get them off their back. "

 

That tatic doesn't work. Time and time again people have tried that and the SJWs find something to complain about. btw, Obsidian games have been targted by SJWs  hardcore by SJWs. SJWs  (with exceptions of course) loathe Obsidian games. Even BIO, the SJW panderers publicly (so much that they harass, bully, intimidate, and attack GGers for ****s and giggles) are asttacked repeatedly by anti GGers even while being praised by them. LMAO

 

\ You can't kiss anti GGers butt because that just gives them an opening to treat you even worse. Give them a bone they want the whole damn skeleton - and if it's a dead white male gamer or some poor woman game developer with internalized misogny all the better.

 

 

:)

 

 

P.S. Afrikan Amerikan = black is pure nonsense. But, hey, in Kanada I guess they are Afrikan Kanadian.  Are there Afrikan Kubans too?

 

Why is it okay to simply say white but not black now? RIDICULOUS.  If you are black you might be from Afrika or  maybe you are just Amerikan. I  don't refer to myself as Euopean Native  Kanadian. L0LZ

 

 

 

"And yes I am aware you are from a  minority group, you Cuban right, so thats why your opinion is interesting and relevant "

 

Finally you admit to your racism. White people don't mattter. LMAO

 

SJW is SJWing. Not news at 12. Just typical hateful disgusting racism.

 

\I guarantee  you Obsidian would be warning you if you had said if you are black your opinion was uninteresting and irrelevant.

 

2015 where racism is a-ok  according to those who claim they are anti racism. L0LZ

 

That's why anti Ggers, SJWs, and feminists are evil. Equalists and Ggers  are all about true equality.

 you funny Volo

 

The reality is obviously someone from a minority group should be more aware of the suffering or systemic discrimination that this group has grappled with 

 

That doesn't mean  for example that  straight white people cannot condemn Homophobia or say they are opposed to Racism if they haven't been victims of this type of discrimination themselves. SJ movements are often based on the principle and the morality around certain developments

 

But I do believe the credibility of any SJ  movement is enhanced if you have people from a minority group, whose rights you are supporting, being active in that movement.

 

This should be obvious ?

[Nonek]

Those whom play games recreationally are a massively diverse majority, whom do not focus on their own races and genders, but rather on skill and individuality. Compare this to hypocritical, predominantly white SJW's, trying to focus on race, gender and diversity, yet remaining a group of pseudo intellectuals, largely of one race, whom feel they have the right to tell others how to act and think. One group is diverse and always has been, the other just talks their moronic talk.

 

Case closed on diversity. put up or shut up.

[Malcador]

http://www.nodontdie.com/anonymous/ Developer talking about the industry

[BruceVC]

Those whom play games recreationally are a massively diverse majority, whom do not focus on their own races and genders, but rather on skill and individuality. Compare this to hypocritical, predominantly white SJW's, trying to focus on race, gender and diversity, yet remaining a group of pseudo intellectuals, largely of one race, whom feel they have the right to tell others how to act and think. One group is diverse and always has been, the other just talks their moronic talk.

 

Case closed on diversity. put up or shut up.

Nonek enough with the innuendo and soapbox sermons, it gets tiresome. Rather be direct and  say what you mean. Who are you referring to when you say people that want inclusivity but don't practice it ?

[Nonek]

Game journalists and SJW's obviously, I cannot be any more direct than stating things clearly in good English, if one cannot understand that then they must accept their own mental limitations. Also do you not think it is rather hypocritical to accuse me of sermonising and innuendo in light of your own constant boring and repititious routine Bruce?

[BruceVC]

Game journalists and SJW's obviously, I cannot be any more direct than stating things clearly in good English, if one cannot understand that then they must accept their own mental limitations. Also do you not think it is rather hypocritical to accuse me of sermonising and innuendo in light of your own constant boring and repititious routine Bruce?

 

Oh so its the old diatribe and invective against people who believe in SJ values 

 

Okay, I have heard it all before and I'm still not convinced 

 

As for the other part of the question. No I don't think I use innuendo, I am clear on issues and what I mean. Perhaps I am guilty of sententiousness  at times but I still appreciate debates and I have changed my views on some topics...so its not like I'm completely intransigent 

[Meshugger]

E3 is going to be fun this year:

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Meshugger

[Nonek]

 

Game journalists and SJW's obviously, I cannot be any more direct than stating things clearly in good English, if one cannot understand that then they must accept their own mental limitations. Also do you not think it is rather hypocritical to accuse me of sermonising and innuendo in light of your own constant boring and repititious routine Bruce?

 

Oh so its the old diatribe and invective against people who believe in SJ values 

 

Okay, I have heard it all before and I'm still not convinced 

 

As for the other part of the question. No I don't think I use innuendo, I am clear on issues and what I mean. Perhaps I am guilty of sententiousness  at times but I still appreciate debates and I have changed my views on some topics...so its not like I'm completely intransigent 

 

 

Ha, because I raise a clear and uncontestable point that happens to be detrimental to SJF's my views are to be dismissed and do not convince you, yes of course you have changed your mind and will accept logical arguments. You contradict yourself within the space of sentences. This is why I do not deem you worth interacting with, your arguments are shallow and repetitious and your viewpoint is hypocritical and two faced considering your proclivities.

 

I shall not further derail the thread as you wish me to do, so consider this exchange terminated.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Game journalists and SJW's obviously, I cannot be any more direct than stating things clearly in good English, if one cannot understand that then they must accept their own mental limitations. Also do you not think it is rather hypocritical to accuse me of sermonising and innuendo in light of your own constant boring and repititious routine Bruce?

 

Oh so its the old diatribe and invective against people who believe in SJ values 

 

Okay, I have heard it all before and I'm still not convinced 

 

As for the other part of the question. No I don't think I use innuendo, I am clear on issues and what I mean. Perhaps I am guilty of sententiousness  at times but I still appreciate debates and I have changed my views on some topics...so its not like I'm completely intransigent 

 

 

Ha, because I raise a clear and uncontestable point that happens to be detrimental to SJF's my views are to be dismissed and do not convince you, yes of course you have changed your mind and will accept logical arguments. You contradict yourself within the space of sentences. This is why I do not deem you worth interacting with, your arguments are shallow and repetitious and your viewpoint is hypocritical and two faced considering your proclivities.

 

I shall not further derail the thread as you wish me to do, so consider this exchange terminated.

 

 

 

Its not all your views I dismiss, its just the majority of them. You are too extreme in your opinion, its like there is no middle-ground with you. And I find it very hard to debate with people who are not prepared to compromise on anything.

[Longknife]

 

Those whom play games recreationally are a massively diverse majority, whom do not focus on their own races and genders, but rather on skill and individuality. Compare this to hypocritical, predominantly white SJW's, trying to focus on race, gender and diversity, yet remaining a group of pseudo intellectuals, largely of one race, whom feel they have the right to tell others how to act and think. One group is diverse and always has been, the other just talks their moronic talk.

 

Case closed on diversity. put up or shut up.

Nonek enough with the innuendo and soapbox sermons, it gets tiresome.

 

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

http://www.nodontdie.com/anonymous/ Developer talking about the industry

 

Loved the interview. Very true.

[Malcador]

The bit about how bad they feel when people slam their games was a bit much, maybe they DO suck. I'm sure Derek Smart thinks his games are awesome and it's everyone else's fault for not seeing it, after all.

 

It is true that even garbage requires a fair amount of work to implement, but that is why you hate designers not the tools guys, no one cares about them, heh.

 

Big AAA companies want to keep making shooters because they understand them and they make money. The politically involved videogame activists don’t want anything to really change because then they’d lose their little piece of the platform. Videogame advocates don’t actually want games accepted by the mainstream because that means they’d lose their little treehouse community. The thing is, nobody wants innovation and creativity. Look at the sales of games that are genuinely interesting and innovative. Very few people buy them. Certainly not enough to fund an industry.

 

So something's wrong here. Someone's not telling the truth about what they really like or what they really want.

This was the only really good part for me.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Big AAA companies want to keep making shooters because they understand them and they make money. The politically involved videogame activists don’t want anything to really change because then they’d lose their little piece of the platform. Videogame advocates don’t actually want games accepted by the mainstream because that means they’d lose their little treehouse community. The thing is, nobody wants innovation and creativity. Look at the sales of games that are genuinely interesting and innovative. Very few people buy them. Certainly not enough to fund an industry.

 

So something's wrong here. Someone's not telling the truth about what they really like or what they really want.

This was the only really good part for me.

 

 

...Yeah, I can certainly see how it would appeal to you. It is pretty much the only pointlessly and not very insightfully cynical statement of the interview, after all 

Edited March 25, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Well, it is about the same level as most of the insight in that article, but a thumbs up for your rating. What was insightful to you though ? Details on why and how the audience sucks ?

 

I guess you have to be a **** as always, though.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Malcador

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Well, it is about the same level as most of the insight in that article, but a thumbs up for your rating. What was insightful to you though ? Details on why and how the audience sucks ?

 

I guess you have to be a **** as always, though.

 

What a delightfully emotional reaction from someone so fond of pretending nothing penetrates his facade of detached cynicism 

[Malcador]

News to me that I pretend that here, recalling posts I've made over the years. Though it is amusing as reading your posts on people being condescending or being **** to others, but I suppose Bruce can't be alone in that area.

[Nonek]

Though I have no conclusive figures I suspect that it is the audience whom are more invested in gaming as a hobby that are more likely to buy games that really do innovate and are creative, and not just use those terms as marketing buzzwords. However even the most pedestrian of AAA+ games can add innovative and progressive features, one just has to look at New Vegas and its DLC compared to Fallout 3, the former was far more delightfully ambitious and creative.

 

To dismiss the AAA+ industry entirely is foolish and extremist, there are lessons to be learned from all layers and generations of the medium. Now finding the right lessons, one assumes that is the hard part.