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Further proof that the E.U. is there for companies, not for its inhabitants


JadedWolf

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Europe’s telco ministers appear to have done a U-turn over a proposed total removal of mobile phone roaming charges by the end of the year.

 

In 2013, the European Commission proposed a plan - backed by MEPs - to end costly roaming surcharges by the end of 2015. No longer would holidaymakers or business travellers be surprised and horrified by shock bills for calls or data sent and received outside of their home country.

 

This would have been part of the the so-called Telecoms Package, which includes proposals related to net neutrality.

But this utopian dream was shattered on Wednesday by the council of national telecoms ministers. According to the draft text on new EU rules for telecom providers seen by your correspondent, national representatives now argue that “a transitional period is needed to allow roaming providers to adapt to wholesale market conditions”.

 

So in short, when the European commission actually suggests something that would make life actually easier for normal inhabitants of the E.U. for a change, national governments are quick to torpedo their efforts. After all, the E.U. was not created to make life easier for its inhabitants! God forbid that the telecom companies might lose out on all that money flowing to their pockets from people who still desire to live in the 21th century even when they are on holiday.

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/05/eu_plan_to_ban_roaming_charges_dropped_youll_just_have_to_pay_that_whopping_great_bill_after_your_hols/

 

To be sure, I am actually far from a frothing at the mouth nationalist, and I would be very much in favour of a united Europe if that would be in the interests of the people living there, but it seems to me that the E.U. is only there for companies and people with money, not for simple citizens.

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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There are certainly cases like that, but we get a load of benefits not seen many other places. From restrictions on chemicals in foods and other products to privacy laws (which could still be a lot better). All in all I feel the Eu works fairly well in my favor.

 

Corruption is unfortunately a part of the game of big government and we have to be vigilant. But I see no Eu conspiracy here.

Fortune favors the bald.

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There are certainly cases like that, but we get a load of benefits not seen many other places. From restrictions on chemicals in foods and other products to privacy laws (which could still be a lot better). All in all I feel the Eu works fairly well in my favor.

 

Corruption is unfortunately a part of the game of big government and we have to be vigilant. But I see no Eu conspiracy here.

 

 

You mean, trading privacy against privacy like this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/13/mep_trade_data_for_data_protection_govts_pnr_pressure_takes_its_toll/ ?

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Wait, what? The European Commission makes a good proposal which is then sunk by national ministries, and... it's the EU's fault? Does not compute.

 

(Not disputing the general statement of the EU caring more about corporations than people; this specific instance just seems more like ... the opposite.)

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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I don't suppose anyone feels like hearing one of those annoying " you guys shouldn't complain, you don't know how lucky you are " sententious comments 

 

Cause if you were I would say " if you think thats bad...you should come live in most African countries....then you will realize how irrelevant these types of developments  are when you see how much the EU has going for it " 

 

:biggrin:

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Wait, what? The European Commission makes a good proposal which is then sunk by national ministries, and... it's the EU's fault? Does not compute.

 

(Not disputing the general statement of the EU caring more about corporations than people; this specific instance just seems more like ... the opposite.)

 

The national ministeries are as much a European institution as the European Commission. When national ministers of a certain department come together, they form what is called the "Council of the European Union." So in essence it's still one E.U. institution overruling the other. And the Council of the European Union is in all things still more important than the E.C. (and certainly more important than the European Parliament.)

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu/index_en.htm

 

Really, in order of importance it's:

 

1) European Council (Council consisting of all heads of states)

2) Council of the European Union (Council consisting of national ministers) (Yes, the names are confusing)

3 E.C.

4 E.P.

Edited by JadedWolf

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Europe’s telco ministers appear to have done a U-turn over a proposed total removal of mobile phone roaming charges by the end of the year.

 

In 2013, the European Commission proposed a plan - backed by MEPs - to end costly roaming surcharges by the end of 2015. No longer would holidaymakers or business travellers be surprised and horrified by shock bills for calls or data sent and received outside of their home country.

 

This would have been part of the the so-called Telecoms Package, which includes proposals related to net neutrality.

But this utopian dream was shattered on Wednesday by the council of national telecoms ministers. According to the draft text on new EU rules for telecom providers seen by your correspondent, national representatives now argue that “a transitional period is needed to allow roaming providers to adapt to wholesale market conditions”.

 

So in short, when the European commission actually suggests something that would make life actually easier for normal inhabitants of the E.U. for a change, national governments are quick to torpedo their efforts. After all, the E.U. was not created to make life easier for its inhabitants! God forbid that the telecom companies might lose out on all that money flowing to their pockets from people who still desire to live in the 21th century even when they are on holiday.

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/05/eu_plan_to_ban_roaming_charges_dropped_youll_just_have_to_pay_that_whopping_great_bill_after_your_hols/

 

To be sure, I am actually far from a frothing at the mouth nationalist, and I would be very much in favour of a united Europe if that would be in the interests of the people living there, but it seems to me that the E.U. is only there for companies and people with money, not for simple citizens.

 

But PUH-LEEZ. All the "EU guys" had passed this, is was only torpedoed when it came to the national governments. There's literally no way that you can say that EU is to blame for this watering-down.

"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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I don't suppose anyone feels like hearing one of those annoying " you guys shouldn't complain, you don't know how lucky you are " sententious comments 

 

Cause if you were I would say " if you think thats bad...you should come live in most African countries....then you will realize how irrelevant these types of developments  are when you see how much the EU has going for it " 

 

:biggrin:

 

Well, I guess we should just stop democracy here altogether here then, since showing any interest in politics will mean that you're going to ask that they do better. Yup, I'll write to my government right now asking them to cancel the next elections, since they're not needed, since we are doing much better than countries in Africa anyway.

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Europe’s telco ministers appear to have done a U-turn over a proposed total removal of mobile phone roaming charges by the end of the year.

 

In 2013, the European Commission proposed a plan - backed by MEPs - to end costly roaming surcharges by the end of 2015. No longer would holidaymakers or business travellers be surprised and horrified by shock bills for calls or data sent and received outside of their home country.

 

This would have been part of the the so-called Telecoms Package, which includes proposals related to net neutrality.

But this utopian dream was shattered on Wednesday by the council of national telecoms ministers. According to the draft text on new EU rules for telecom providers seen by your correspondent, national representatives now argue that “a transitional period is needed to allow roaming providers to adapt to wholesale market conditions”.

 

So in short, when the European commission actually suggests something that would make life actually easier for normal inhabitants of the E.U. for a change, national governments are quick to torpedo their efforts. After all, the E.U. was not created to make life easier for its inhabitants! God forbid that the telecom companies might lose out on all that money flowing to their pockets from people who still desire to live in the 21th century even when they are on holiday.

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/05/eu_plan_to_ban_roaming_charges_dropped_youll_just_have_to_pay_that_whopping_great_bill_after_your_hols/

 

To be sure, I am actually far from a frothing at the mouth nationalist, and I would be very much in favour of a united Europe if that would be in the interests of the people living there, but it seems to me that the E.U. is only there for companies and people with money, not for simple citizens.

 

But PUH-LEEZ. All the "EU guys" had passed this, is was only torpedoed when it came to the national governments. There's literally no way that you can say that EU is to blame for this watering-down.

 

 

See my post above yours. The Council of the European Union is as much a European institution as the European Commission. The E.U. is not just the European commission + the European parliament. 

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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That complicated framework is often something that actually works against the E.U. in the public eye as well. National governments can easily decide to do something together through the European Council or Council of European Ministers, and then pretend that they didn't actually want to do it, saying "Sorry, the E.U. made us do this." This happened for example here in the Netherlands when our government said that they couldn't do anything about having to make budget cuts because European regulations, while trying not to make people remember that they themselves pushed for those regulations in the Council to start with.

Edited by JadedWolf

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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So what you're saying is essentially that we should ditch the opinions of our respective governments and let EU decisions override in all cases? Because that is what would solve this. I don't see how it is possible to blame the EU for this when the sound judgment of the elected EU-parliamentarians is botched by national ministers.

"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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So what you're saying is essentially that we should ditch the opinions of our respective governments and let EU decisions override in all cases? Because that is what would solve this. I don't see how it is possible to blame the EU for this when the sound judgment of the elected EU-parliamentarians is botched by national ministers.

 

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying the E.U. really messed up on this, and that the outcome is very unfortunate. 

 

It's easy to equate this to National vs. European, but it's impossible to do that because the national governments are an integral part of the E.U. through the various bodies that make up the E.U. that consist of ministers from the governments. It's more like... European Commission v.s. rest of the E.U. institutions. It's all sorts of complicated.

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Does the EU require unanimous member nation approval for a law to go into effect?

 

A qualified majority is required for the Council of the European Union for approval. So even if the Commission makes a proposal that is passed by the majority of the European Parliament, it can still be shot down by the Council.

 

Have fun reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_legislative_procedure#Ordinary_legislative_procedure

Edited by Meshugger
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"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Share on other sites

 

So what you're saying is essentially that we should ditch the opinions of our respective governments and let EU decisions override in all cases? Because that is what would solve this. I don't see how it is possible to blame the EU for this when the sound judgment of the elected EU-parliamentarians is botched by national ministers.

 

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying the E.U. really messed up on this, and that the outcome is very unfortunate. 

 

It's easy to equate this to National vs. European, but it's impossible to do that because the national governments are an integral part of the E.U. through the various bodies that make up the E.U. that consist of ministers from the governments. It's more like... European Commission v.s. rest of the E.U. institutions. It's all sorts of complicated.

 

No. The EU did not mess up on this. The national governments messed up on this.

 

It's easy to equate to national vs. European because that's what it is. The elected body of EU representatives made this, and when it was sent out to the governments, they botched it, because specific governments did not want it. Saying that the Council of European Ministers is a part of the EU is very disingenuous. It is simply the place where the respective governments are supposed to rubber-stamp EU decisions. If you regard this as a part of the EU, then the your problem is simply that you want to make EU decision making independent of national governments, like I said.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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So what you're saying is essentially that we should ditch the opinions of our respective governments and let EU decisions override in all cases? Because that is what would solve this. I don't see how it is possible to blame the EU for this when the sound judgment of the elected EU-parliamentarians is botched by national ministers.

 

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying the E.U. really messed up on this, and that the outcome is very unfortunate. 

 

It's easy to equate this to National vs. European, but it's impossible to do that because the national governments are an integral part of the E.U. through the various bodies that make up the E.U. that consist of ministers from the governments. It's more like... European Commission v.s. rest of the E.U. institutions. It's all sorts of complicated.

 

No. The EU did not mess up on this. The national governments messed up on this.

 

It's easy to equate to national vs. European because that's what it is. The elected body of EU representatives made this, and when it was sent out to the governments, they botched it, because specific governments did not want it. Saying that the Council of European Ministers is a part of the EU is very disingenuous. It is simply the place where the respective governments are supposed to rubber-stamp EU decisions. If you regard this as a part of the EU, then the your problem is simply that you want to make EU decision making independent of national governments, like I said.

 

 

You make a very compelling argument, i doubt anyone will dispute what you saying 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Okay, let me just step back here, and apologize, because it seems that my ego is getting in the way and I am muddling up the discussion while trying to "be right" about something.

 

Let me just say that, no, I don't blame the European Commission in this since obviously they are the ones coming up with this idea, so in that respect, if you see the E.U. as the European Commission, then no, I am not mad at the E.U. In this particular case I am obviously mad at the ministers who voted against it.

 

Let me try to rephrase what I was trying to say in original post. I am actually sympathetic to a united Europe, but what I see is that the forces that create this Europe focus too much on companies and too little on its actual citizens. That is all, really.

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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I don't suppose anyone feels like hearing one of those annoying " you guys shouldn't complain, you don't know how lucky you are " sententious comments 

 

Cause if you were I would say " if you think thats bad...you should come live in most African countries....then you will realize how irrelevant these types of developments  are when you see how much the EU has going for it " 

 

:biggrin:

 

Ah yes. Because I wasn't raped last night, makes the fact that I got robbed at gun point so much better.

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