Pike and extended reach.

[Arden]

the Pike and like items that give extended reach can be used from behind allies for protection. 

Do the extended reach have an advantage when it's one on one, such as keeping your opponent with a shorter weapon from hitting that often?

[Sock]

Nope.

[Arden]

Thanks!

[Gromnir]

reach weapons are extreme useful and arguably essential.

 

...

 

wait, this isn't troika's toee? well, p00p.  

 

for poe, the reach quality for weapons is of limited efficacy when fighting in doorways.  stick your tank in the doorway and lets your pike armed character poke holes in folks who don't have a ranged weapon or a reach weapon o' their own. 

 

keep in mind that unlike d&d with critical threat ranges and vastly different damage potentials, the weapons is 'posed to be balanced.  the weapon qualities is not 'posed to give a strong advantage.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, it's an advantage but not a huge one and more for 2nd-rank characters.

 

One question I have though is whether having a pike extends the Engagement Range for melee characters -- i.e., is it harder to get out of engagement range vs. a pike wielder. I suspect it is but not 100% sure.

[Lephys]

I dunno, but it'd actually be interesting if the minimum engagement range expanded as well, thus leaving a circle around the pike-wielder in which he couldn't actually engage/attack you. Thus, if he was attacking you from a 2nd-rank position, and you moved out of the pike's engagement area, he could hit you. But, if you run in toward him, he's a bit screwed and must switch weapons.

 

Not sure how that would work, specifically with these mechanics, though, since just "leaving the engagement area" constitutes an engagement attack (unless the attacker is Interrupted, as per the proposed Interrupt changes that are coming our way in the next build/final release).

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I asked over on SA and nothing has extended engagement range because "it was causing too many problems." 

 

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593502&pagenumber=363#post442335259

[Sensuki]

Yes it was.

 

 

[Luckmann]

Oh, so this is another one of those, "instead of fixing it, let's remove it, because it was potentially abusable"? The issue seems to lie deeply embedded in the Engagement system itself, and should be fixed with that system, not making Extended Reach weapons wonky and inconsistent. It is very unintuitive that weapons that some weapons have extended reach, but then suddenly when it comes to engagement, it doesn't apply.

 

I'm freakishly tired of seeing everything moulded after the Engagement system to accommodate it and it alone, like it's the one mechanic that shouldn't be touched or questioned, a linchpin in the pillars of eternity.

Edit: Oh lord, I just watched your vids, Sensuki. Even if that particular abuse isn't applicable anymore, it really underlines some important issues with the system and highlights how absurdly stupid it looks that you get free, invisible and infinite attacks from Disengagement, even if we ignore the other issues.

Edit 2: Aaargh, it looks so dumb, it looks so dumb, it looks so dumb. It's so dumb. I've been focusing on the issues of bogging down melee and completely locking down the battlefield for the player, and the fact that it turns combat into a static clusterblob, I never realized just how stupid the entire thing is, since if you know about it, you won't be subject to it that often. But it's just so dumb and so unintuitive. I want to claw my brains out and make it into tomato sauce, the Engagement system as it works burns brain cells I'll never get back.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sensuki]

yep

[Chilloutman]

wait what, reach weapons dont have larger engagement range? Omg Obs, it really starts to smell of incopetence when it goes down to combat mechanics

[Lephys]

It just should've been better thought out from the get-go. Ideally. I realize that's easy to say when you're not working with a team of X people and a limited budget, trying to build this game from the ground up in a new engine.

 

But, "engaged" should've been a status that could be applied. Maybe even with durations, etc. Then, have things that could break it (the proposed Interrupt changes are a good start). Maybe just "while engaged, you take extra damage from flanking attacks (on account of you being too tied up to deal with them). And if you simply try to jog off, you get a free attack against you (just by the guy who's engaged with you... and you can only be engaged by one person at a time).

 

That, and mere proximity shouldn't ever have beget engagement. You could have it be a passive, on-hit effect, at least in some circumstances (certain classes, weapons, talents, etc.), but have it require a Hit or greater (Graze or Miss doesn't count, 'cause that means you're in no position to hinder that person if you can't even hit them at the time). There's no reason you should run up to someone, miss them, but get a free Attack of Opportunity when they take 2 steps.

 

Annnnnnywho. I think Engagement's at least seeing some improvements. We'll see what happens in the final release build, . I don't think it'll be glorious, but it might be far less bothersome than it has been.

[etagloc]

I like to use reach weapons on my barbarian, that way I can almost always reach the enemy in the middle, for maximum carnage potential.

[rjshae]

wait what, reach weapons dont have larger engagement range? Omg Obs, it really starts to smell of incopetence when it goes down to combat mechanics

 

Actually it makes a lot of sense to me. Doubling the radius would quadruple the engagement area, which is far too much ground to cover with what is effectively a much slower weapon. That's not incompetence; it's physics.

[Azmodiuz]

actually it would be geometry.  and it would be how many little engagement range circles however smaller they are could fit around the now larger center circle, i.e the guy with larger engagement surface area.  

 

 But it would be arguably much more. whatever that number would be, would be relative of course to the situation.

 

But, I now want to see if two pike armed characters and one crazy tank can actually block doorways and be very effective. 

Anyone attempted this yet/have any experience ?  Would I stick them all on defend, or just the center guy, would it even matter the class of the two pike guys, could be a good way to use a chanter or priest, imo.

 

Keeps archers and mages in the back, which is good.

Thoughts? (tactics)

[rjshae]

actually it would be geometry.  and it would be how many little engagement range circles however smaller they are could fit around the now larger center circle, i.e the guy with larger engagement surface area. 

 

No it's how fast can a weapon that is 2-3 time longer than normal can swing around and cover that much area. It's dependent on moment of inertia, which is a function of the radius squared integrated across the mass. So double the length, quadruple the torque needed to change the rotation. Plus you've quadrupled the area to cover with the weapon. In short, you can't cover the geometry anywhere near as effective because of the physics involved.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rjshae

[etagloc]

Yes it was.

 

 

Wow such cheese very derp :D rofl

[Tamerlane]

Notably, D&D struggles kinda struggles with reach and opportunity attacks still. 3.X gave extended reach to opportunity attacks but prevents them from attacking adjacent enemies. 4e let reach weapons hit adjacent enemies at all times but didn't give them reach for opportunity attacks (unless you managed to get your grubby mitts on threatening reach somehow). 5e's reach exists in some strange, nebulous state where its interaction with opportunity attacks is up for a lot of debate due to unclear wording but opportunity attacks in 5e kinda suck anyway so it's not a huge deal I guess.

[Azmodiuz]

 

actually it would be geometry.  and it would be how many little engagement range circles however smaller they are could fit around the now larger center circle, i.e the guy with larger engagement surface area. 

 

No it's how fast can a weapon that is 2-3 time longer than normal can swing around and cover that much area. It's dependent on moment of inertia, which is a function of the radius squared integrated across the mass. So double the length, quadruple the torque needed to change the rotation. Plus you've quadrupled the area to cover with the weapon. In short, you can't cover the geometry anywhere near as effective because of the physics involved.

 

HAHA! too realistic though, and its not double the centrifugal force its part of an exponential equation.

[Azmodiuz]

Notably, D&D struggles kinda struggles with reach and opportunity attacks still. 3.X gave extended reach to opportunity attacks but prevents them from attacking adjacent enemies. 4e let reach weapons hit adjacent enemies at all times but didn't give them reach for opportunity attacks (unless you managed to get your grubby mitts on threatening reach somehow). 5e's reach exists in some strange, nebulous state where its interaction with opportunity attacks is up for a lot of debate due to unclear wording but opportunity attacks in 5e kinda suck anyway so it's not a huge deal I guess.

wait.. they have 5ED now ?

[Tamerlane]

Yeah. Don't wanna turn this thread into D&D chat, but it feels to me like a (mostly) cleaned-up version of 3e with a bunch of 2e influences on it.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I find pikes absolutely invaluable. Their reach helps me keep characters not intended to tank (further) away from harm, and their DR/DT bypass is significant. Because engagement radii are set, it's not so much they they stay outside of it as it is that it creates great phalanx opportunities when combat opens, and their greater distance causes the AI to target them less often. Only dedicated offensive casters and tanks don't receive a pike in my parties. They are my preferred default weapon.

 

As towards engagement, yeah, it's screwed up. I'll not turn this thread into an engagement debate, but engagement was really handled in the worst way possible.

 

wait.. they have 5ED now ?

 

 

Yes, and it's the best edition yet. Be sure to check it out.

[Azmodiuz]

Yes, and it's the best edition yet. Be sure to check it out.

 

 wait, what ?!? Things just went down hill since 2nd ed. in my opinion. I rather had no issues with THAC0 , I consider it a trade off for the full spell lists for divine and arcane.

I even liked 3rd ed, liked how we got feats every 3rd level at the very least, and attribute points every 4. 4th... everything became mediocre and sucked. Me and all my friends almost all stopped playing DnD altogether. 

 

What's so special about 5ed ? Is it now so simple, its playable with 6 year olds without much explanation or something ? Or did they come out with a card game to support it now too ! LOL..

 

IDK, i do not particularly trust anything wizards of the coast do any more. 

 

 

EDIT: so i went and read up on it abit. even came accorss this, which is 2 children, 8-9  being DM and playing..

 

I recently purchased the starter set and played it with my daughters (who are 8 and 9 years old). They expressed some interest in it after I helped them create a Warriors RPG. (Warriors is a young adult book series about cats. It's basically Game of Thrones, but with cats! They love it.)

My girls were a bit frustrated at first, but have started to get into it. I let them create lego minifigures (using castle and LOTR figures) that matched the pregenerated characters that came with the set. They liked that, but got a little frustrated with the rules. Specifically, they got frustrated when their attacks missed, so I simplified it a bit for them. I simply removed the hit rolls. Every attack hits and you only roll for damage. I made a few other tweaks and they are now really into it.

My youngest decided she wanted to be dungeon master and she ended up interrupting our journey through Phandelver to take us across the sea. We visited a haunted sunken ship (that happened to be located on land) and rescued a few kittens from abandoned homes that now travel with us.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Azmodiuz

[Tamerlane]

You'd probably like it if you enjoyed 3rd and 2nd. Like I said, it's mostly a mash-up of those two things.

[Eurhetemec]

 

Notably, D&D struggles kinda struggles with reach and opportunity attacks still. 3.X gave extended reach to opportunity attacks but prevents them from attacking adjacent enemies. 4e let reach weapons hit adjacent enemies at all times but didn't give them reach for opportunity attacks (unless you managed to get your grubby mitts on threatening reach somehow). 5e's reach exists in some strange, nebulous state where its interaction with opportunity attacks is up for a lot of debate due to unclear wording but opportunity attacks in 5e kinda suck anyway so it's not a huge deal I guess.

wait.. they have 5ED now ?

 

 

Yes, it's basically "What if 3E had been much more like 2E?", but it is also a bit influenced by modern RPGs and 4E (not much though). It's certainly vastly more streamlined than 3E and 4E, and vastly less balanced than 4E, for better or worse.