Shadowing Beyond

[Osvir]

I attempted to play a non-combat approach (thus dumping Constitution and Might and maxing the other attributes as much as possible) but I quickly met with an opposition at the Dyrford Crossing.

There was no way to sneak past the beetles EDIT: In hindsight, I never used any traps >.> /EDIT

I played a solo Rogue and my attempt was to get to Kongrak without any combat, and then attempt to take the Non-Combat choices with Kongrak (which I recall being possible).

 

I took "Shadowing Beyond" as my trump card in case I would get into combat, and it functioned just like I wanted it too (with one exception, which I'll get into in a bit). I accidentally triggered combat, used the ability and managed to "escape" from the Combat state, thus managing to fully retreat from combat successfully for the very first time playing the Beta.

The exception being: It is a "Combat Only" ability. Seeing as the Rogue is the only Class that has this ability, I can't quite wrap my head around why it's a Combat Only ability. In a party of 6 the ability has very situational functionality. EDIT: I did consider triggering combat just to be able to use the ability and then get past the Beetles but that felt unintuitive and weird so I avoided doing it /EDIT

1) The Rogue is low on Endurance/Health and needs to reposition. Use Shadowing Beyond and the Rogue becomes untargetable and can use a free Sneak Attack.
2) Everyone but the Rogue is knocked out, and the Rogue escapes using the ability (but it would also trigger "Combat State ended" and thus re-awaken everyone who was downed and probably trigger Combat again).

 

Broken functionality
2a) Everyone gets knocked out except the Rogue (Enemies are thus still alive)
2b) Rogue uses "Shadowing Beyond" and ends combat state.
2c) Everyone gets up from knocked out state (But enemies would most likely still be around, thus triggering combat again)

I am curious if "Shadowing Beyond" can become an Out of Combat Utility Rogue Ability instead. A tool for scouting past, "beyond" enemies in a full party of 6, and it could become a Solo Rogue Character's ability to sneak past a lot of enemies (but obviously not all of them) on a lower difficulty tier (where I presume a Solo Playthrough would be most doable).

Thoughts?

Edited February 7, 2015 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Yeah the Combat Only flag is a thing people aren't a big fan of (me included). There's been multiple discussions ongoing about it in other threads.

[Osvir]

This (thread) is about a specific ability (which has a broken situational functionality, see "2a to 2c" in first post), not about all abilities. I don't mind the "Combat Only" flag for Offensive or Buff Spells/Abilities.

I just found it frustrating that this Utility Ability (Thread Title), isn't the Stealth Ability that it could be... and the Stealth Ability that Pillars of Eternity is currently lacking.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Osvir

[Luckmann]

 

This (thread) is about a specific ability (which has a broken situational functionality, see "2a to 2c" in first post), not about all abilities. I don't mind the "Combat Only" flag for Offensive or Buff Spells/Abilities.

I just found it frustrating that this Utility Ability (Thread Title), isn't the Stealth Ability that it could be... and the Stealth Ability that Pillars of Eternity is currently lacking.

 

And that's exactly the same reason people hate "Combat Only" abilities. I realize you want to home in on your pet ability, but it's a problem for a lot of abilities, and what one specifically has a problem with the most varies depending on what you prefer to play and how. I hadn't even noticed this issue, and instead have a personal seething hatred for the "Combat Only" modals (auras, in particular) some would have the gall to call "buffs".

 

It's a pretty wide issue, not just for you.

[Osvir]

Let me rephrase then:

Shadowing Beyond is a broken ability (not because "Combat Only" flag), as Escape fufills its function just as much without any wonky issues (See example 2a to 2c in First Post). It is not "broken" as in "Overpowered" but rather "Mechanically Broken".

Why would I do Shadowing Beyond, or even pick this ability when I can do (pretty much) the exact same thing with the "Escape" ability? (Disengage/Reposition/Flank)

I didn't make this Thread because of the "Combat Only" flag entirely (it does touch the "Combat Only" discussion, yes), I made it because Shadowing Beyond is broken and it's a sub-optimal ability. It is, ultimately, the same thing as Escape, but with broken drawbacks. It is an ability that is suited for a Solo Character or for a Scouting Character, problem is that the Latter isn't possible (because of "Combat Only").

To fix "Shadowing Beyond", it'd either have to be an Active Targetable Sneak Attack a la "The Rogue goes invisible and Sneak Attacks the target" (I'm thinking something like Talon from League of Legends, a short ranged teleport backstab) or a Non-Combat Stealth Skill. Any of these two would solve the ability and make it more viable.

As a short-ranged teleport sneak attack
In essence, it'd be more of a combo attack, 3 sequences in 1 attack/1 active per encounter (see below)

- Escape
- Shadowing Beyond
- Sneak Attack/Auto-Attack

Except, you wouldn't suffer the recovery time between each of the abilities. If the ability became something like this, then it'd be a much more viable choice, and the "Combat Only" flag would fit better with it.

As an Utility Stealth skill
No "Combat Only", but allows the Player to sneak past obstacles otherwise impossible to scout behind enemy lines. It has 2 Per Rest Casts currently, so it'd mean you can Sneak past enemies whilst being invisible, find a spot where you aren't seen, continue to scout, even lay out traps or whatnot, then return and use the 2nd Cast to get back to the group.

The Problem/Issue I have with Shadowing Beyond
- Combat Starts
- Fight goes bad = Everyone is knocked out (Except Rogue)
- Rogue does Shadowing Beyond
- Combat State Ends, Everyone gets up with Low Stamina
- Enemies are still alive, Stamina won't regenerate
- Combat Starts again
- Everyone gets immediately pummeled
- 2nd Cast of Per Rest Shadowing Beyond
- Everyone gets up, low Stamina and low health
- Combat Starts again
- Game Over

(This happened in an earlier build for me, but I didn't think too much about it, not enough to post about it, it was a realisation I had on my latest play)

Shadowing Beyond = Not a good ability in Combat, as "Escape" fulfills the same purpose of getting out of disengagement. The only difference is that Shadowing Beyond allows for an "immediate", in combat, Sneak Attack.

EDIT: Or make Shadowing Beyond an "All" Cast Ability (I.E. Targets all of your characters rather than "Self"), but then it'd be pretty "Overpowered", but it would mechanically function as a "Retreat", "Flee", "Run Away" or "End Combat State" Ability.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Osvir

[Litany]

I'm actually fine with the idea of Combat Only skills (which puts me in the minority around here, I suppose), but I agree that this skill seems to lack utility if you can't trigger it out of combat. And since it has a short duration and is a per-rest ability the potential for abusing it seems low.

I also like the idea of it becoming a short-range teleport attack. Would definitely synergize well with escape.

[Yonjuro]

...

I am curious if "Shadowing Beyond" can become an Out of Combat Utility Rogue Ability instead. A tool for scouting past, "beyond" enemies in a full party of 6, and it could become a Solo Rogue Character's ability to sneak past a lot of enemies (but obviously not all of them) on a lower difficulty tier (where I presume a Solo Playthrough would be most doable).

 

Thoughts?

 

 As an FYI,  'Shadowing Beyond' was added after a discussion in another thread about stealth being full party. The idea was to allow the rogue to enter stealth after combat starts by using the ability since the stealth mechanic doesn't allow it. I think the longer term plan is to redo stealth as a single character ability(for the expansion or PoE2) but it was going to be too much of a rabbit hole to do before the release.

 

 For the record, I don't like the combat only restrictions on spells or abilities. I know PoE isn't a reality simulator, but having an ability that you can only use after an enemy sees you makes no sense and removes more from game play than it adds  (your situation is a perfect example).

[Yonjuro]

...Why would I do Shadowing Beyond, or even pick this ability when I can do (pretty much) the exact same thing with the "Escape" ability? (Disengage/Reposition/Flank)

 

 It has a use:

 

 Combat starts with your rogue behind enemy lines (initially using stealth). Activate 'Shadowing Beyond' and your rogue is now invisible and will not be targeted by enemy front line. Position your other melee characters to engage enemies and then the rogue is free to attack anybody.

 

 If you use Escape in that situation, your rogue still may be targeted by enemies. You might need to escape behind your other melee fighters to avoid being engaged by the enemy front line preventing you from, say, attacking the wizard in the back line. 

[Osvir]

I'm actually fine with the idea of Combat Only skills (which puts me in the minority around here, I suppose), but I agree that this skill seems to lack utility if you can't trigger it out of combat. And since it has a short duration and is a per-rest ability the potential for abusing it seems low.

 

I also like the idea of it becoming a short-range teleport attack. Would definitely synergize well with escape.

@Litany: I didn't even think about that, but you're absolutely right (the synergize) *thumbs up* :D

 

@Yonjuro #1: I can see where most people come from and if I were to choose myself, I'd do without it but... in a combat design like Pillars of Eternity, I accept and understand the choice of "Combat Only" design for spells and similar. It is an anti-pre-buffing design as well as an anti-"Crush your enemies with 6 fireballing Wizards before fight even starts"-design. There's been tons of discussion on this.

 

I guess hm, a "Combat Only" design would shine the most if there was a button of some sort triggering "Combat Stance" which characters/NPC's react towards*. "Hostile Stance" or "Hostile Mode", something the Player has to trigger before casting a spell (I.E. going into Hostile Mode near Medreth's group could trigger them to go into "Hostile Mode". Spells would then instead have "Hostile Mode Only", it would fulfill the same thing). But this sort of design would require more work, with sheathed weapons and similar~ so that the Player can make sense of "why" Hostile Mode/Combat Only is a required flag.

 

I mean, if I pull out my sword, or start flickering in my grimoire preparing to cast a spell, that in itself should warrant a sort of reaction from the enemy/opposition or those in close vicinity a la "What the hell are you doing!?" and go hostile themselves and maybe even manage to interrupt the spell casting before it finishes. Needless to say, that's tons more work.

 

"Combat Only" allows the opposition to react, and it creates more challenge in encounters.

 

But spells and abilities that have an application outside of combat should not have "Combat Only". Shadowing Beyond is such a spell (IMO) and there are others too, others that'd require tons of work on the rest of the game (Whisper of Treason for instance, e.g. take control of a bandit, assassinate the bandit leader with him, and leave no trace. Or gather intelligence from the city watch by controlling a guard, leaving only confusion and a magical residue as a clue).

 

@Yonjuro #2: I suppose I didn't do it justice, because I deliberately excluded the early- to mid-combat uses for Shadowing Beyond (where it is most effective and has a bit of a purpose). You are absolutely correct it isn't worthless, but it could be worth much more.

 

I wanted to address the potential Out of Combat uses for Shadowing Beyond and late-combat uses problems.

 

----------------

 

*Going into "Hostile Mode" or "Combat Stance" (Readied Stance or whatever you would want to call it) in the middle of the streets of Defiance Bay could warrant a reaction from NPC's, Guards, attackers or defenders, whoever is close. Needless to say but I'll say it anyways: Would require tons more work.

 

Hm, thinking about it... TES games does this, but it's so normalised that I think many don't even think about it too often or too much. If you hold a weapon up, guards will approach you and say "Take that weapon away!" or even draw their own weapons. It's way more advanced than what PoE got now, but I think that ultimately that's where a "Combat Only" design approach ends up.

 

To cast a Spell in Skyrim you have to "Draw Weapons" in that sense, Skyrim's combat system is a "Combat Only" system, in essence~ because drawing weapons = combat mode.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Osvir

[Yonjuro]

...

@Yonjuro #1: I can see where most people come from and if I were to choose myself, I'd do without it but... in a combat design like Pillars of Eternity, I accept and understand the choice of "Combat Only" design for spells and similar. It is an anti-pre-buffing design as well as an anti-"Crush your enemies with 6 fireballing Wizards before fight even starts"-design. There's been tons of discussion on this.

...

 

 Yes, it does solve some design problems (though I would prefer a different solution). That said, I think you can crush your enemies with 6 fireballing wizards (or cast CC spells) before combat starts. They just can't cast any buff spells before they do it.

 

 Anyway, I like where you're going with the 'Hostile Mode' idea. 

 

 

 

..But spells and abilities that have an application outside of combat should not have "Combat Only". Shadowing Beyond is such a spell (IMO) and there are others too, others that'd require tons of work on the rest of the game (Whisper of Treason for instance, e.g. take control of a bandit, assassinate the bandit leader with him, and leave no trace. Or gather intelligence from the city watch by controlling a guard, leaving only confusion and a magical residue as a clue).

..

 

 These are good examples. The problem being addressed with 'combat only' abilities is avoiding 'non-choice' situations like, should you pre-buff? Yes, you should (though, there is a cost if the buffs are short duration). The examples you gave provide more choices - hence, they shouldn't be combat restricted (in an ideal world == world with unlimited development budget).

 

 BTW, if any Obsidian devs happen to read this, putting something like the above, that is, moving interesting spells that "shouldn't" be combat only out of combat only status, into a PoE2 kickstarter would probably get some extra $$ out of yours truly.

 

(Especially if the reworked abilities move back into the original game (though some of  them could potentially change some quest endings too)).

[Osvir]

Fthang!

You are probably correct (about Fireball), I haven't played much of the Beta lately. I guess I assumed more abilities & spells had become "Combat Only". I've played 458 a couple of times (but not as many or as in depth as the previous ones), and I've noticed more abilities being "locked out" since previously and seeing comments about "Combat Only", I most abilities (if not all) had become "Combat Only" (projecting my experience/perspective).

 

I'm also having difficulty playing the Beta, because 99% of the time playing the Beta I'm thinking "I want to play the full thing" xD

[Karkarov]

It is an ability that blatantly has effects that are only pertinent in combat.  It makes you untargettable... well if you aren't in combat no one is targeting you to begin with.  It makes perfect sense that it is combat only if you think about it, why would you need a skill to make people stop attacking you when.... no one is actually attacking you?

 

You guys need to get over wanting to prebuff.  The state of "out of combat" abilities has been known for months.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

You guys need to get over wanting to prebuff.  The state of "out of combat" abilities has been known for months.

 

Talk about a strawman if there ever was one.

[Osvir]

It is an ability that blatantly has effects that are only pertinent in combat.  It makes you untargettable... well if you aren't in combat no one is targeting you to begin with.  It makes perfect sense that it is combat only if you think about it, why would you need a skill to make people stop attacking you when.... no one is actually attacking you?

 

You guys need to get over wanting to prebuff.  The state of "out of combat" abilities has been known for months.

 

Shadowing Beyond makes you invisible, meaning it would allow you to sneak past enemies in full stealth if it was Out of Combat. With the short duration it has, you'd only be able to scout, and it could even be risky if the timer runs out in a bad spot. Using any items/attacking or whatever will reveal you as well. It's a perfect (potential) scouting/stealth ability.

 

The link in one of my previous posts takes you to the Wiki if you want to read up on the ability description.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

Shadowing Beyond makes you invisible, meaning it would allow you to sneak past enemies in full stealth if it was Out of Combat. With the short duration it has, you'd only be able to scout, and it could even be risky if the timer runs out in a bad spot. Using any items/attacking or whatever will reveal you as well. It's a perfect (potential) scouting/stealth ability.

Here is the thing.... that's what the stealth skill is for.  I just don't see them letting a one off ability invalidate the need for using the stealth system just saying.

 

Talk about a strawman if there ever was one.

You do realize accusing someone of a "strawman arguement" is in fact the ultimate "strawman arguement" to begin with.  Meanwhile when I said months I was being nice, it is more like.... two years ago.  Personally I get my jollies coming to this forum to see the every so often new wave of "BG3" posters who are shocked and complain about stuff communicated months or years ago cause it isn't a copy paste of BG2.

 

Pre buffing sucks.  It is isn't fun, it doesn't add anything to the game, and only grognard num nuts think it is anything resembling gameplay.  Are there a couple abilities here and there I think could benefit from being used out of combat, like say Paladin aura's, yes.  Do most of them need to be changed or is it some horrible offensive thing they aren't out of combat.  No.  Nor does the ability specifically in this thread need changing.

[Osvir]

*shrug* I've said everything I've wanted to say already

But the ability is not, Karkarov, triggering because someone is attacking you. You can do it in combat even if the enemy is not targeting you and you are standing on the other side of the map, just as long as the "combat state" has begun.

EDIT: Maybe I didn't say everything?

It also has a 10-12 second duration. It doesn't matter whether you'd use it as a "Pre-buff" before a fight or if you do it in a fight, it is always successfully cast, and is cast instantly. Casting it before a fight gives you a short window to do anything with it, and in a fight it gives you just of a short window to do anything with it. 

 

The only advantageous thing you'd get if you'd use it before a fight, out of combat, would be to have a free roam scouting ability and you'd be able to get past obstacles otherwise impossible with the standard Stealth ability. You'd also only be able to get past with a single character, meaning that you have 5 characters still left behind (unless you have a 6 Rogues Party).

You can't progress the game, and you can't defeat any enemies with the ability (in a party). What you can do is scout/turn invisible. You wouldn't be able to Rest if you scout past a group of enemies either (to attempt to refresh the Per Rest counters).

Hm, this got me curious... I wonder... 6 Rogues... 6 Shadowing Beyonds... hmm... brb.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

*shrug* I've said everything I've wanted to say already

 

But the ability is not, Karkarov, triggering because someone is attacking you. You can do it in combat even if the enemy is not targeting you and you are standing on the other side of the map, just as long as the "combat state" has begun.

There is a reason it can't be used out of combat.  You want to stealth around outside combat we have a perfectly functional stealth skill in the game.  The fact that you can exploit it once combat triggers is well... an exploit.  Hopefully the devs will do something to fix it, or just take the ability away since no one wants to use it for it's actual purpose.  Which is to break aggro and score a free sneak attack.

[Shallow]

My main issue with combat only abilities is that it's being applied way too widely.

 

What should be combat only:

nonmodal buffs (it's really ridiculous that things that are always active should somehow turn off outside combat)

summoning spells

 

What shouldn't be combat only:

everything else

 

Following this simple design philosophy you get a nice and easy system that prevents prebuffing, and doesn't have a ton of horrible sideeffects.

As for the issue of using per encounter abilities outside encounters, either add a timer of some arbitrary length after which, provided you don't enter an encounter, you're able to use the ability again (ideal), or, make the ability count as used until you enter an encounter regardless of how long that would take.

 

In regards to the OPs ability, you shouldn't be able to flee from combat with a bunch of knocked out characters without them being killed by whatever you were fighting, a cool way to deal with this would be allowing knocked down party members to be picked up by party members who aren't knocked out, but it's way too late for new stuff to be implemented.

[Osvir]

 

*shrug* I've said everything I've wanted to say already

 

But the ability is not, Karkarov, triggering because someone is attacking you. You can do it in combat even if the enemy is not targeting you and you are standing on the other side of the map, just as long as the "combat state" has begun.

There is a reason it can't be used out of combat.  You want to stealth around outside combat we have a perfectly functional stealth skill in the game.  The fact that you can exploit it once combat triggers is well... an exploit.  Hopefully the devs will do something to fix it, or just take the ability away since no one wants to use it for it's actual purpose.  Which is to break aggro and score a free sneak attack.

 

The underline is also a reason why I made this thread because, I couldn't sneak past combat. Whatever I tried to do, it would start combat and thus "Stealth" would fail. It was the Adra & Stone Beetles, I tried every path, but every time I tried to sneak past it, the yellow circle started.

 

I.E. it was impossible to sneak past the Beetles = The Stealth skill is not functional in this instance/against the Beetles at the level I was at (that might be a design choice by Obsidian I don't know, e.g. "You can't sneak past the Beetles cus they have a keen sense and they are insects" or something)

Edited February 8, 2015 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

The underline is also a reason why I made this thread because, I couldn't sneak past combat. Whatever I tried to do, it would start combat and thus "Stealth" would fail. It was the Adra & Stone Beetles, I tried every path, but every time I tried to sneak past it, the yellow circle started.

There is only one problem Osvir.  You are assuming the devs don't want you to be forced to fight the beetles.  Yes tons of combat in the game is avoidable, yes tons of it can be talked around (like the ogre), but no one should have any illusions that there won't be forced battles.  There will be encounters Obsidian has designed around the idea that you will have to resolve them through combat, maybe they felt like forcing some beetle encounters was a good "party" check in case someone wanders in too low level.

[Yonjuro]

 

The underline is also a reason why I made this thread because, I couldn't sneak past combat. Whatever I tried to do, it would start combat and thus "Stealth" would fail. It was the Adra & Stone Beetles, I tried every path, but every time I tried to sneak past it, the yellow circle started.

There is only one problem Osvir.  You are assuming the devs don't want you to be forced to fight the beetles....

 

 I don't speak for Osvir, but I'm not assuming that.

 

 Whatever the devs intended, I'm saying that I don't want to be forced to fight the beetles for artificial gamey reasons. My party has the magical ability to turn invisible, summon creatures as decoys etc. Except, I can only use these abilities when the combat flag is set because... because... artificial limitations put on the game that don't especially make sense in the game world.

 

 Is my position clear?

 

..., maybe they felt like forcing some beetle encounters was a good "party" check in case someone wanders in too low level.

 

 Maybe, but I don't care. If I wander in there too early, that should be my problem to fix. I even have the tools to fix it except that I can't use them because the house rule says that they magically (or, unmagically?) stop working when the combat flag isn't set.

 

 I'm being redundant here and I'm also saying the same thing multiple times and repeating myself to make sure that I get my real point across.

 

.... There is a reason it can't be used out of combat.  ... it's actual purpose.  Which is to break aggro and score a free sneak attack.

 

 A game where each ability has a single purpose is less interesting than one where they can be creatively applied for multiple purposes. I don't think this point should be controversial. It separates games that you play once, to experience the story, from games that have real replay value. 

[Osvir]

I'm not assuming the devs want anything except me to, fundamentally, enjoy their product (which I am ), I'm talking about what I want because I see greater potential in something that I believe others would enjoy as well, and where I see it applicable, I.E. where Shadowing Beyond could reach more worth, more potential and even more enjoyment (for everyone). It's a great skill, but I feel that it is currently sub-optimal, it is like Gohan before he awakes his Hidden Power (Dragonball reference).

I want to emphasize that this suggestion/analyse of Shadowing Beyond isn't particularly directed at Pillars of Eternity for release or for priority, it's a D-list priority (or whatever the "Suggestion" letter was, and Obsidian already knows this themselves), thus something to look into for expansions, patches and essentially the future. I usually say this, but seems I've forgot to do it this time.

My 6 Rogue Party is doing well too, playing on Hard. Shadowing Beyond is really useful in fights, and it's also useful to get past targets (and in combination with traps it's super fun ) and also useful to escape fights. 2x6 Sneak Attacks on Kograk also takes him down to "Near Death" with my rather weak and not optimal party. But I could do 2 Shadowing Beyond nearly right after each other as well.

Didn't manage to take Kograk out, but with some tweaking with items, gear, food and rest bonuses I bet I could do it. Start with some eyestrikes and crippling strikes, then Shadowing Beyond x2, would probably take out Kograk and potentially a bear.

Also, having 6 Escapes is hilarious! You spread the damage recieved on all 6 Rogues, and positioning is super important (and it looks freaking cool!). As all of them are melee, you can easily encircle targets with Escape as well (And everything becomes backstabs).

Big spiders also go "Squish" when you do 6 Shadowing Beyond xD

Shadowing Beyond is probably much better if you have several Rogues (2-3). Mind you, this isn't a typical party. In the "normal" party I used, Shadowing Beyond was useful for disengaging (just like Escape) and repositioning (just like Escape), with an added bonus to be able to Sneak Attack. With 6xRogues I could also retreat from combat if it got too hairy. Hit & Run attacks, take out one or two Beetles, then go invisible and stop combat (Camp if needed), then return, take out another or defeat the rest.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Osvir