Do not go the "all endings happened" route plz.

[Gorth]

Yeah. They are basically nazis in space with force powers. Only thing missing is the racial ideology.

I was actually wondering about that one, the people on Taris (the "aliens") gave me the impression through dialogue, that the Sith did not like non-humans, as in being discriminating. Yet on Korriban you run into somebody like Yuthura (spelling?)

 

Two different story/level designers ?

[Shdy314]

The Sith consider themselves superior to everyone but especially non-force sensitive aliens.

 

Not to mention being the hateful, racist type certainly makes you more susceptible to the DS in the first place.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I see some people saying the Sith should be rewritten so they aren't so treacherous. Sorry but this is really stupid. This is supposed to be the Sith's greatest weakness. They don't have many you know. Unlike LS Jedi. And it comepletely goes against everything they are. The DS is based on passion and power. Look at their creed. By their very beliefs they cannot temper their passion or pass up opportunities to gain greater power. This is why the rule of two was implemented.

It's a weakness, but it isn't so much of a weakness that the Sith Empire couldn't stand for 1000 years....as it did. If every other second there was some new Sith Lord blasting away at the reigning Sith Lord, the Sith Empire would've collapsed in upon itself far, far sooner.

 

In short, I think it's a part of the nature of the Sith.....but it's overdone in KOTOR. Obviously, the Sith are working together to defeat the Republic, so they can't be betraying each other all the time.....and an army in the field which routinely fires on it's own troops as some underling gets it in his head that he can take out his commanding officer is an army that would be wiped out without breaking a sweat by the opposition.

 

In a lot of ways, the Sith in KOTOR remind me of the characterization of the Drow in Bioware's Forgotten Realms games, except with one very important distinction: the Drow have specific rules about when and where they can attack each other (no sniping from one house against another, only full-blown attacks that leave no nobles alive), whereas the Sith don't have even that basic structure.

 

Again, I agree that betrayal is the great enemy of the Sith; they turn on each other quite often. But it should be played down a bit, since they obviously aren't betraying each other every other day.

[Lohengrin]

Yeah. They are basically nazis in space with force powers. Only thing missing is the racial ideology.

I was actually wondering about that one, the people on Taris (the "aliens") gave me the impression through dialogue, that the Sith did not like non-humans, as in being discriminating. Yet on Korriban you run into somebody like Yuthura (spelling?)

 

Two different story/level designers ?

I am uncertain about their attitude towards non-humans. They certainly seem to favor humans but, as you say, there is Yuthura Ban in Kotor, and I am quite certain that Darth Maul isnt human either.

 

Maybe they they find a few other alien species acceptable.

[Shdy314]

I see some people

It's a weakness, but it isn't so much of a weakness that the Sith Empire couldn't stand for 1000 years....as it did. If every other second there was some new Sith Lord blasting away at the reigning Sith Lord, the Sith Empire would've collapsed in upon itself far, far sooner.

 

In short, I think it's a part of the nature of the Sith.....but it's overdone in KOTOR. Obviously, the Sith are working together to defeat the Republic, so they can't be betraying each other all the time.....and an army in the field which routinely fires on it's own troops as some underling gets it in his head that he can take out his commanding officer is an army that would be wiped out without breaking a sweat by the opposition.

 

In a lot of ways, the Sith in KOTOR remind me of the characterization of the Drow in Bioware's Forgotten Realms games, except with one very important distinction: the Drow have specific rules about when and where they can attack each other (no sniping from one house against another, only full-blown attacks that leave no nobles alive), whereas the Sith don't have even that basic structure.

 

Again, I agree that betrayal is the great enemy of the Sith; they turn on each other quite often. But it should be played down a bit, since they obviously aren't betraying each other every other day.

You are forgetting that the Sith Empire stood for a thousand years because they were hiding from the Jedi and rest of the galaxy on that world. The instant those people (names I forget) came to their homeworld giving the Sith hyperdrive coordinates for important planets throughout the galaxy the Sith began fighting and disagreeing. One side wanted to keep biding their time and the other wanted to try and take over the galaxy.

 

It was not overdone in KOTOR because the Sith have never had rules to face each other in any book, movie or game I've ever seen. They have always backstabbed and betrayed each other like this. So for continuity reasons you can't just suddenly make the Sith a more united race.

 

The Drow are a good analogy but remember the Sith are not the Drow. The Drow have rules for killing each other and the Sith don't. The Sith in fact ENCOURAGE their apprentices to take any opportunity to kill and advance their station. Also the Drow could probably have taken over Faerun long ago but they too like the Sith are divided. In the case of the Drow they have the houses.

[Opus131]

The Sith are comepletely self destructive because they value taking any opportunity to betray and kill higher ranked Sith to take their place.

Yeah, but this is just an arbitrary arse characterization which doesn't have to turn into a canon to describe a society that has been in struggle with itself for 40.000 freaking galactic years, you'd think there would be SOME change in such a large span of time.

 

Just because emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader are both pshycotic sociopaths doesn't mean every single sith in the entire hystory of a galaxy far far away from making ANY sense has to be modeled after them.

 

I say destroy the old canons and give us a restructured characterization of the sith, we don't need an entire society of Anakins Skywalkers, for the love of god...

[Shdy314]

The Sith are comepletely self destructive because they value taking any opportunity to betray and kill higher ranked Sith to take their place.

Yeah, but this is just an arbitrary arse characterization which doesn't have to turn into a canon to describe a society that has been in struggle with itself for 40.000 freaking galactic years, you'd think there would be SOME change in such a large span of time.

 

Just because emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader are both pshycotic sociopaths doesn't mean every single sith in the entire hystory of a galaxy far far away from making ANY sense has to be modeled after them.

 

I say destroy the old canons and give us a restructured characterization of the sith, we don't need an entire society of Anakins Skywalkers, for the love of god...

It isn't arbritrary characterization. It is how their society works according to people that were given authorization by Lucasarts to create it. They could change but not suddenly. A reason would have to be created and a good one too. Personally I think only someone becoming the Sithari and rewriting their beliefs could do it.

[Meshugger]

The Sith are comepletely self destructive because they value taking any opportunity to betray and kill higher ranked Sith to take their place.

Yeah, but this is just an arbitrary arse characterization which doesn't have to turn into a canon to describe a society that has been in struggle with itself for 40.000 freaking galactic years, you'd think there would be SOME change in such a large span of time.

 

Just because emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader are both pshycotic sociopaths doesn't mean every single sith in the entire hystory of a galaxy far far away from making ANY sense has to be modeled after them.

 

I say destroy the old canons and give us a restructured characterization of the sith, we don't need an entire society of Anakins Skywalkers, for the love of god...

It isn't arbritrary characterization. It is how their society works according to people that were given authorization by Lucasarts to create it. They could change but not suddenly. A reason would have to be created and a good one too. Personally I think only someone becoming the Sithari and rewriting their beliefs could do it.

What's this Sithari-myth? I thought that it was something invented by Bioware.

[Shdy314]

Maybe (at least I never heard it anywhere else) but KOTOR is canon. And I think the idea is kewl.

[Opus131]

It isn't arbritrary characterization. It is how their society works according to people that were given authorization by Lucasarts to create it. They could change but not suddenly. A reason would have to be created and a good one too. Personally I think only someone becoming the Sithari and rewriting their beliefs could do it.

First of all, let's get down with something. George Lucas is a proven idiot, and i don't have to accept everything that comes from his limited mind.

 

That Bioware has an issue with their shallow and bland conceptualization of evil is an established fact, this doesn't mean that Obsidian has to take in Bioware's rejects of ideas just because Lord George Lucas has decreted that everything that pertains the Star Wars universe, no matter how random, arbitrary or relevant the source is has to become canon, and that's that.

 

I for one was hoping for a better characterization of the Sith with this sequel, now you are just shooting down my hopes for imprevement because everything that is done to the Star Wars source becomes standard no matter how much it sucks.

[Shdy314]

First of all, let's get down with something. George Lucas is a proven idiot, and i don't have  to accept everything that comes from his limited mind.

 

That Bioware has an issue with their shallow and bland conceptualization of evil is an established fact, this doesn't mean that Obsidian has to take in Bioware's rejects of ideas just because Lord George Lucas has decreted that everything that pertains the Star Wars universe, no matter how random, arbitrary or relevant the source is has to become canon, and that's that.

 

I for one was hoping for a better characterization of the Sith with this sequel, now you are just shooting down my hopes for imprevement because everything that is done to the Star Wars source becomes standard no matter how much it sucks.

You don't have to. Anyone that wants to make something officially SW without getting sued for millions of dollares DOES.

 

Bioware has the best evil characters of any RPG company. As opposed to FO2 or PS:T(Their biggest weakness in my opinion) where you didn't know who the true villain was until the end and they just didn't matter so much. Whereas with Bioware games like BG or BG2 the main character had so much backstory and personality they rivaled the PC. Though Malak is a bit shallower than some previous Bio games.

 

I am just saying this is the way the Sith are. Sorry I agree GL has done a lot to hurt star wars but most Sith stuff was written by others and approved by Lucasarts. Except for unofficial fanfic anything SW has to have GL's stamp or they would be sued for copyright infringement. I also think the Sith make sense the way they are. Their teachings advocate the attainment of absolute power and encourage ANY means to reach this goal no matter what. Not to mention the kind of people that are more apt to go DS are angry hateful people and the DS feeds this side of them to the point they lose the ability to think rationally and become consumed with lust for power. Therefore their teachings must be changed if they are to become truly united which would require a truly charismatic and respected Sith but even people such as Exar Kun have ultimately failed to truly unify the Sith.

 

I am not saying the Sith cannot be changed. Just that they shouldn't suddenly be portrayed differently without an explanation.

[Brianalot Curren]

Somebody said Malak made a mistake attacking Revan's ship during a heated battle. But if you know Malak and the dialouge you know that he was really really POed about being the apprentice. I mean with other cases we have seen the master was there and he handpicked the apprentice like Palpatine and his many apprentices. This was the first time two guys go in there and then somebody chooses who is better. It mustn have been good for his ego. And the apprentice always knew that for the time they were weaker, and someday they would be more powerful. So they have at least some gratefullness for it, and will always have in the back of there mind they will take over someday. But with Malak, he always thought he was more powerful than Revan. And thought he should have been choosen, so he was in self-denial that Revan was in fact and always will be more powerfull than him. So I think the characterization of the Sith was done properly, especially at this time Malak the grand sith lord of them all got to where he was by killing the master.

So maybe the ideology of the Sith changed when Malak did this, because like someone said the sith with somewhat different than other novels and movies and games. I could imagine many sith apprentices having somewhat unwritten rules about not killing masters. But when Malak did that, they thought to themselves, well he did so can I. Then you have a bunch of snot nose sith on Korriban wanting to take over.

[Opus131]

^That wouldn't be so bad actually...

[Opus131]

Bioware has the best evil characters of any RPG company. As opposed to FO2 or PS:T(Their biggest weakness in my opinion) where you didn't know who the true villain was until the end and they just didn't matter so much. Whereas with Bioware games like BG or BG2 the main character had so much backstory and personality they rivaled the PC. Though Malak is a bit shallower than some previous Bio games.

 

I guess to some people 'evil' just isn't noteworthy unless it's bland, shallow and completely clear cut and unimaginative.

 

Bioware's conception of evil can't get past the maniacal laughting/mustache twirling disney stereotype. If that's what your idea of a 'great' character i can't help it, but i personally prefer something more mature and in line with reality.

 

This is what made Torment such a great game in my book, the fact each character didn't simply befall on some established cliche.

 

At the end, you almost symphatize with Raven, and as for the last incarnation, how could a character matter more when YOU were the main villian of the game. ?!?

 

What could be more distressing then to learn you caused the death of your eternal love ?!? How could you remain unaffected for what you did to Morte or Drakkon ?!?

 

All the evil and torment you caused, all because you were too cowardly to face your own destiny ?!? None of this mattered to you ?!?

[Gorth]

Bioware has the best evil characters of any RPG company. As opposed to FO2 or PS:T(Their biggest weakness in my opinion) where you didn't know who the true villain was until the end and they just didn't matter so much. Whereas with Bioware games like BG or BG2 the main character had so much backstory and personality they rivaled the PC. Though Malak is a bit shallower than some previous Bio games.

"Best" would be subjective/oppinion...

 

Sarevok was so stereotypical it hurts, NWN was too boring to ever figure out who the villain was, Melissan? Melissan who? And Malak was more funny than scary. A true comic book villain (which might have been a deliberate design decision, being SW and all).

 

Jon Irenicus on the other, yes, that was a well done villain. You could actually understand what made him tick and you could dislike him for what he did to you.

 

The problem with games like PS:T and FO, is that they are way more "open" games. Most players focus singlemindedly on the "end-boss" (an awful concept in crpg's) that they overlook all the petty villains along the way, some of them more interesting than the main villain. I for one found small fish like the Skullz gang leader or the guy from the Maltese Falcon more interesting persons than The Master in Fallout. Even with very little or no backstory, theirs was evil you could relate to. Same thing goes for Trias the Betrayer in PS:T, shees, wish that guy had had a bigger part than he did.

 

Bioware is just not very good at being evil.

 

Wonder how they would tackle a game where you are not up against a villain, but a phenomena like a plague or a disaster ?

[Ivan the Terrible]

Here's an example of 'backstabbing taken to the point of stupidity':

 

On Korriban, if you kill Uthar and then either kill or turn Yuthura, you're met outside by three Sith students. If you proclaim that you're Darth Revan or that you're taking over the school or whatever, one of the students (STUDENTS!) says something to the effect of 'even if it is Revan, we'll kill him and I'LL take over the school!'

 

Ambition is a good thing to the Sith. Being so ambitious that you ignore practical reality crosses that thin line between ambition and stupidity. The same goes for slaughtering your own side in the middle of a battle with the Republic.

[Shdy314]

Bioware has the best evil characters of any RPG company. As opposed to FO2 or PS:T(Their biggest weakness in my opinion) where you didn't know who the true villain was until the end and they just didn't matter so much. Whereas with Bioware games like BG or BG2 the main character had so much backstory and personality they rivaled the PC. Though Malak is a bit shallower than some previous Bio games.

 

I guess to some people 'evil' just isn't noteworthy unless it's bland, shallow and completely clear cut and unimaginative.

 

Bioware's conception of evil can't get past the maniacal laughting/mustache twirling disney stereotype. If that's what your idea of a 'great' character i can't help it, but i personally prefer something more mature and in line with reality.

 

This is what made Torment such a great game in my book, the fact each character didn't simply befall on some established cliche.

 

At the end, you almost symphatize with Raven, and as for the last incarnation, how could a character matter more when YOU were the main villian of the game. ?!?

 

What could be more distressing then to learn you caused the death of your eternal love ?!? How could you remain unaffected for what you did to Morte or Drakkon ?!?

 

All the evil and torment you caused, all because you were too cowardly to face your own destiny ?!? None of this mattered to you ?!?

It had no effect on me because I did not do anything to Morte or anyone else. I was a comepletely different person everytime I awoke. I asimilated the original me. That definitely makes ME the dominant personality which had no recollection of what the other me's merely inhabiting my body did. That's like wondering how I could have not considered myself evil after all Revan had done. With that kind of logic you should wake up with full DS poiints. I did not consider myself Revan nor did my TNO think of himself as someone else. Deionnarra was not my eternal love. Annah was.

 

Sarevok was not a cliche villain. Especially after he was expanded in ToB. Mellissan was an expansion villain but come on! The servant Bhaal entrusted with his final rites to bring him back from the dead then betraying Bhaal to steal his power. That ain't shallow or tacky evil. That was really kewl. Especially when Bhaal is summoned and rages at Mellisan's betrayal. I forget what her line is to Bhaal but it's really great. Also try the Ascension Mod which was created by Dave Gaider(I Believe) Adds a lot more to the end of ToB.

 

NWN I grant you the main villain was pretty weak. But the joy of NWN has never been its single player aspect.

 

Yes I know it is all opinion. I didn't think I needed to preface these kinds of my posts with "This is my opinion..." As it so obviously is. At the very least though I think it is pretty much fact that even NWN main villain had more story to them than the Enclave or Horrigan whom we know almost nothing about.

[Shdy314]

Here's an example of 'backstabbing taken to the point of stupidity':

 

On Korriban, if you kill Uthar and then either kill or turn Yuthura, you're met outside by three Sith students. If you proclaim that you're Darth Revan or that you're taking over the school or whatever, one of the students (STUDENTS!) says something to the effect of 'even if it is Revan, we'll kill him and I'LL take over the school!'

 

Ambition is a good thing to the Sith. Being so ambitious that you ignore practical reality crosses that thin line between ambition and stupidity. The same goes for slaughtering your own side in the middle of a battle with the Republic.

HEHEH Yeah that is stupid. But I don't think he really believed you were Revan. He probably assumed you were just another student that managed to poison Yuthura and Uthar (which is an option).

[Drakron]

Its pointless.

 

I play console RPGs and even if FF have its hit-and-miss it have good characterization of evil many form, Yevon evilness for example is not actually evil by himself by of others that created the Yevon religion.

[Topaz Quasar]

Generalizations of the Sith come from people's bad habit of....generalizing.

 

 

Perhaps these new Sith Lords are trying a new method of survival; NOT killing each other.

 

Darth Bane took time to think about the flaws of the Sith 1000 years before the movies (3000 years after KOTOR)....perhaps others before him tried new methods of preservation?

[sniggy]

meh. there are only two sith lords at that time. master and apprentice. thats it.

 

all others are would-bes with delusions of grandeur. like the sith students on korriban.

 

"he killed MASTER uthar. get him!" ???

 

they should have gone:

 

"master who? oh that uthar guy. we never liked him anyway.

hail thee, revan!"

[Jurgenaut]

I was under the assumption that Sith were too egoistic to do stuff for the greater good of the sith. Remember Yorak Uln.

 

"You're dying. You possess great knowledge that would empower your successor-something. What do you do?"

 

[spit them in their face and take what you know with you in death.]

 

 

As for villains... FF4 was kinda good in this aspect. At first, you realize that lord Baron is evil. Then you find out that lord Baron is a puppet for the elemental fiends. Someguy called Golbez holds their strings. And you run into Rubicant, the elemental fiend of fire, who shows some character. ("Was it flame? I'LL SHOW YOU HOW!"). Golbez proves to have character as well. Behind Golbez stands the proverbial Evil Force (Zeromus).

 

A line of villains like that is okay, but still not perfect. You don't really know Zeromus until the end. You haven't even heard of him. 'twould be better if you've heard of Z as some evil diety who disappeared in some clash against another diety, leading you to think that Z perished.

 

FF5 had kefka. He seemed Chaotic Neutral. I didn't like him. Madmen don't do good villains.

[sniggy]

lawful evil.

 

that's what a "villain" should be.

[Fardragon]

meh. there are only two sith lords at that time. master and apprentice. thats it.

 

all others are would-bes with delusions of grandeur. like the sith students on korriban.

 

"he killed MASTER uthar. get him!" ???

 

they should have gone:

 

"master who? oh that uthar guy. we never liked him anyway.

hail thee, revan!"

That stricture was introduced later by Darth Bane (about 1000 pre-ANH I think).

[Fardragon]

To deal with the issue of dealing with alternative endings, the biggest balance of power issue is the survival of the Star Forge.

 

LS it is destroyed by the republic fleet. DS it survives. The way I would deal with this is to have it destroyed by some other band of heroic jedi or by dissent within the Sith.

 

Dead Characters: The only party members that can't die in KOTOR are the droids and Candorous. These characters can be made important to the plot. The mortal characters must either not appear, be periferal or have an understudy character who replaces them if they are established as dead.

 

Jedi: Regardless of how KOTOR ended many jedi where killed on Dantoonie and in the battle of the Star Forge. If Sith assassins are hunting the survivors then the jedi may have disbanded and gone into hiding, alowing rumors to cerculate that they where all dead. The PC being in exile was left out of the loop. At this moment an army of jedi may be gathering at a secret location to stike back at the Sith.

 

Revan: It seems to me that the most likely reason for this character leaving is returning memories. Revan encountered something on the rim that caused him/her to seek out the Star Forge. Maybe it was something that threatens the Republic and the Sith. Revan, light or dark, would have to return to the rim to try and deal with it.

 

I expect in SL the PC will encounter Revan as a (robed and masked) force ghost.

 

 

P.S. In PS:T the antagonist is present thorought the game, as you are fighting yourself.