PAX South 2015 live thread

[Sarex]

Heh... I will happily bet any amount you care to name that, if Obsidian chooses to launch another Kickstarter, that project will easily exceed its funding goal within the first week.

 

If PoE does well sure, otherwise I doubt it. Should the game fail, the only thing that could possibly pull them out of the ****er is if they by some miracle got their hands on the rights to do KOTOR 3 or Fallout 4(or 5, too lazy to look).

 

Anyways, what you quoted wasn't implying their inability to get funding for the next KS, but getting away with saying that they will communicate with the backers/fans.

[Flow]

 

Heh... I will happily bet any amount you care to name that, if Obsidian chooses to launch another Kickstarter, that project will easily exceed its funding goal within the first week.

 

If PoE does well sure, otherwise I doubt it. Should the game fail, the only thing that could possibly pull them out of the ****er is if they by some miracle got their hands on the rights to do KOTOR 3 or Fallout 4(or 5, too lazy to look).

 

Anyways, what you quoted wasn't implying their inability to get funding for the next KS, but getting away with saying that they will communicate with the backers/fans.

 

 

I'm willing to place that bet now with no knowledge of how PoE sells after release.

 

What does "get away with" mean? If they can easily fund future Kickstarters, who the hell cares how a small subset of Obs forum denizens complain about perceived lack of communication?

[PrimeJunta]

The problem is that anything negative about the game that is pointed out, you guys scream bloody murder about how we are abusing and offending Obs.

I call bull**** on that. If you like, I can point to a number of critical threads I've started. The latests is "[392] Enemy casters need to be more threatening." Check it out on the BB forums if you like.

[Sarex]

I'm willing to place that bet now with no knowledge of how PoE sells after release.

 

What does "get away with" mean? If they can easily fund future Kickstarters, who the hell cares how a small subset of Obs forum denizens complain about perceived lack of communication?

 

Your money.

 

It will matter to the people who backed because to them that was a selling point. Bigger games were toppled for less, multiple times. So for a fragile thing like a KS, where word of mouth is king, I think it pays to keep your promises.

 

 

I call bull**** on that. If you like, I can point to a number of critical threads I've started. The latests is "[392] Enemy casters need to be more threatening." Check it out on the BB forums if you like.

 

I saw it and the others. How are they any different from the multiple thread the people you call out started? You would be on the chopping block too then. I mean I haven't seen them reply to any of your threads, must mean that you are insulting and oppressing them.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sarex

[Flow]

 

I'm willing to place that bet now with no knowledge of how PoE sells after release.

 

What does "get away with" mean? If they can easily fund future Kickstarters, who the hell cares how a small subset of Obs forum denizens complain about perceived lack of communication?

 

Your money.

 

It will matter to the people who backed because to them that was a selling point. Bigger games were toppled for less, multiple times. So for a fragile thing like a KS, where word of mouth is king, I think it pays to keep your promises.

 

 

Oh FFS.

 

They will not be "toppled" by anything that happens in these forums. Especially not because a couple of senior Obs employees don't post here. If PoE is a raging piece of ****, that will be a problem. Nothing else matters.

[Sarex]

Oh FFS.

 

They will not be "toppled" by anything that happens in these forums. Especially not because a couple of senior Obs employees don't post here. If PoE is a raging piece of ****, that will be a problem. Nothing else matters.

 

I tend to agree, but as I say bigger games have been toppled for less. It depends on circumstance, but it's not impossible.

[Namutree]

Watching the live stream has convinced me there needs to be a penalty for getting knocked out. Watching nearly Josh's whole team get wiped by a trap only to get up and shrug it off like it was nothing was stupid. It's dumb mechanically and it's immersion breaking as hell. 

[Sarex]

Knock down is immersion breaking it self, I mean you kill enemies but they only knock you down?

[Stun]

The obvious explanation again is that he -- among others -- doesn't want to participate in this community.

Then one wonders why he's citing community-developer interaction as one of the great boons of a kickstater project- and one of the things he found so "freeing and liberating" about the PoE development process. Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Sarex]

Then one wonders why he's citing community-developer interaction as one of the great boons of a kickstater project- and one of the things he found so "freeing and liberating" about the PoE development process.

 

Maybe it's the option to do so that is freeing for him. You know, even if he doesn't want to there is the option to do so.

 

Or he is out there on some forum (Obzidian.net) sharing the guts of the game with a handful of people and thinking to him self "Why are there so little fans willing to discuss the game...".

 

Runs off to check if Obzidian.net really exists.

[Starwars]

Or perhaps it's interaction on the development team's terms, not simply "tea-time with the Obsidian forums"? They post an update, post screenshots, post info, post a new Backer Beta, post whatever, and the community responds to that? And then OEI decides whether to change or not to change something based on the feedback they see? Dun dun dun!

Edited January 25, 2015 by Starwars

[Leferd]

You realize that they've made at the very least, 88 official updates and progress reports since the kickstarter began --far more than any other kickstarter project I've backed.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/forum/89-pillars-of-eternity-announcements-and-news/

Edited January 25, 2015 by Leferd

[Sarex]

Or perhaps it's interaction on the development team's terms, not simply "tea-time with the Obsidian forums"? They post an update, post screenshots, post info, post a new Backer Beta, post whatever, and the community responds to that? And then OEI decides whether to change or not to change something based on the feedback they see? Dun dun dun!

 

Sure, but the way he said it in the stream, is a pretty roundabout way of stating it. Still doesn't change the fact that they discuss the game on others forums in a week more then they do here since the KS.

 

Also that would mean that we the critics are not at fault and I just find that hard to believe. /s

 

You realize that they've made at the very least, 88 official updates and progress reports since the kickstarter began --far more than any other kickstarter project I've backed.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/forum/89-pillars-of-eternity-announcements-and-news/

 

You do realize that those are updates, not discussions? Know the difference?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sarex

[Stun]

Or perhaps it's interaction on the development team's terms, not simply "tea-time with the Obsidian forums"? They post an update, post screenshots, post info, post a new Backer Beta, post whatever, and the community responds to that? And then OEI decides whether to change or not to change something based on the feedback they see? Dun dun dun!

That's no different than how things are in any traditional Publisher-funded model. So no. And we haven't had a single story/narrative based update anyway (ie. stuff that Chris would logically discuss), so make that a double NO.

 

For God sakes, even friggin BIOWARE's writers did monthly NPC profile threads for DA:I on the BSN. But apparently we peons here on the Obsidian forums aren't even worth that much time from Obsidian's writing staff.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Leferd]

As Starwars, PJ, and others have pointed out, they can't spend too much time with actual discussions -if the environment is toxic and leads to endless debate. They have people reading the forums --culling feedback, and yes responding and/or discussing when warranted, but  constantly wading into the fray and debating minutae ad nauseum would not be a productive use of their time, budget, and mental health.

 

Would we like them to interact with us more often on these forums? Absolutely. Would they like us be a little more friendlier and less toxic? Very likely. It's probably saner to be a little detached rather than get directly involved in flame wars. Hell, even Gaider quit the Bioboards. The BIO BOARDS!

 

Josh is no dummy. He knows that whatever he posts --whether it's on twitter, his tumblr, or on SA will make its way here. But he does these on his own (personal) time and when at work, he still will post here for purposes of specific feedback or clarification.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Leferd

[Sarex]

Then why state differently, that was the whole point of this debate. You talk about endless debate and what have you,but still you spin the yarn.

[Stun]

As Starwars, PJ, and others have pointed out, they can't spend too much time with actual discussions -if the environment is toxic and leads to endless debate. They have people reading the forums --culling feedback, and yes responding and/or discussing when warranted, but  constantly wading into the fray and debating minutae ad nauseum would not be a productive use of their time, budget, and mental health.

 

Would we like them to interact with us more often on these forums? Absolutely. Would they like us be a little more friendlier and less toxic? Very likely.

 

It's probably saner to

Translation: While we fully (and repeatedly) acknowledge the fact that the Kickstarter model gives us the freedom to interact more directly and more openly with the fan base, we still prefer to adhere to the communication shackles imposed by the Big Publisher model -- and not excersize that freedom....ever*....because our fanbase is too mean.

 

 

*Yes, EVER. In Chris Avellone's case, it's not a matter of constantly wading in, or even occasionally wading in. It's NEVER wading in, no matter what. He does not have a single PoE-based post on this forum. In fact, the last time he took part on a thread here was in f*cking 2006.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Starwars]

 

Or perhaps it's interaction on the development team's terms, not simply "tea-time with the Obsidian forums"? They post an update, post screenshots, post info, post a new Backer Beta, post whatever, and the community responds to that? And then OEI decides whether to change or not to change something based on the feedback they see? Dun dun dun!

That's no different than how things are in any traditional Publisher-funded model. So no. And we haven't had a single story/narrative based update anyway (ie. stuff that Chris would logically discuss), so make that a double NO.

 

For God sakes, even friggin BIOWARE's writers did monthly NPC profile threads for DA:I on the BSN. But apparently we peons here on the Obsidian forums aren't even worth that much time from Obsidian's writing staff.

 

 

Of course it's different. A publisher can dictate what they want to see and OEI has to follow. The community cannot. A publisher can dictate what the devs show *us*. We cannot dictate what OEI shows *us*. OEI is in *charge* of their project, not a publisher and most definitely not us. The difference is that now OEI can read the fan-discussions on forums (and partake if they wish) and change things in their game depending on *our* feedback and not the publishers, if they choose.

 

It's not an investment on our part, it's donating towards a game that will hopefully please us. We partake in a gamble when we donate to kickstarter. There are no contracts. The deal is not to have discussions with the devs, to be armchair developers or that everything is open and that your favorite developer will discuss every single thing with some random dude on the internet. You're not entitled to any of these things.

 

OEI have posted a truckload of updates (more than most kickstarters I might add), have changed things in the actual game based on feedback from these forums (some fairly big things to, like the removal of the durability system), based on feedback from the backer beta (again, not exactly par for the course when dealing with a publisher) etc etc. But no, they are the devil because Josh doesn't post here (much) and Chris doesn't really post anywhere afaik.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Starwars

[Osvir]

Don't forget that making alternative accounts is easy too!   

There might be ninjas among us.

:ninja:

Jokes aside and an explanation, if Obsidian wants to discuss or participate in the community discussion because they see subjects they themselves are interested in, I would assume they would make an alternative normal forum account. Why? Because the "DEVELOPER+" tag under their name is both tracked on a Devtracker site as well as much more authorative.

I don't believe anyone reads or responds to a Dev comment like they do to a normal member.

Developer+ comments resonates throughout the entire Fan Community. People look up to these comments.
Members discuss with Members on equal footing.

So what's the point? Ninjas. And salt. Take all of this with a metric ton of salt, because there is no truth in it. And that's why it's so ninja 

[PrimeJunta]

Then one wonders why he's citing community-developer interaction as one of the great boons of a kickstater project- and one of the things he found so "freeing and liberating" about the PoE development process.

He is not referring to this community.

[Stun]

Of course it's different. A publisher can dictate what they want to see and OEI has to follow. The community cannot. A publisher can dictate what the devs show *us*. We cannot dictate what OEI shows *us*. OEI is in *charge* of their project, not a publisher and most definitely not us. The difference is that now OEI can read the fan-discussions on forums (and partake if they wish) and change things in their game depending on *our* feedback and not the publishers, if they choose.

 

It's not an investment on our part, it's donating towards a game that will hopefully please us. We partake in a gamble when we donate to kickstarter. There are no contracts. The deal is not to have discussions with the devs, to be armchair developers or that everything is open and that your favorite developer will discuss every single thing with some random dude on the internet. You're not entitled to any of these things.

 

OEI have posted a truckload of updates (more than most kickstarters I might add), have changed things in the actual game based on feedback from these forums (some fairly big things to, like the removal of the durability system), based on feedback from the backer beta (again, not exactly par for the course when dealing with a publisher) etc etc. But no, they are the devil because Josh doesn't post here (much) and Chris doesn't really post anywhere afaik.

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing. There's no publisher on earth that would have stopped Chris Avellone from coming on here to discuss dialogue mechanics, or NPC interaction depth (for example).

 

The shackles here are, and have always been, self imposed. So it's disingenuous for him to peddle the notion that this 'freedom' to engage the fans is anything new, or unique thanks to the kickstarter model.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Stun

[Sarex]

He is not referring to this community.

 

Then why did you refer to this community?

[Stun]

He is not referring to this community.

Aah, Mind Readers R us.

 

Got any proof that he was referring specifically to his Twitter followers and no one else?

 

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Leferd]

These boards were at its most vitriolic state immediately after the release of KotOR 2 and it got so bad that Feargus was very close to closing the forums.

 

Avellone was actually pretty active (along with Rich Taylor aka Akari) during this time and he had to take the heat  (and never placed the blame on LucasArts) for the ending of KotOR 2. There was this one especially *touched* poster who kept on ragging the guy for the art design of the Basilisk War Droid. I don't think Chris ever fully recovered after that experience and stopped posting regularly.

 

But lets not say that Chris has completely shut himself off to the community or with community interaction. He regularly attends conventions, grants interviews, responds to emails, and is quite active on twitter. He's even solicited kickstarter feedback directly on these boards.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1-chris-avellones-blog/

[BrainMuncher]

lol, the level of whining here is unbelievable.

 

What do you think he was doing at that Q&A panel? I'll give you a hint: engaging with the community.

 

 

TBH if I was Chris and I saw this thread, I wouldn't want to post here either.

Edited January 25, 2015 by BrainMuncher