30 min vid about the dumbing down of The Elder Scrolls franchise

[Nakia]

I am glad they didn't buy a license to do D*D.  I didn't care for the spell system at all and I understand the new editions 4.x has changed a lot of things.  Totally destroyed my beloved  Halflings.  Just playing the BB the game has the feel to me of those old game, good dialogue, interesting little quests and taska that can be done in different ways.  I like the new cipher class, very interesting.  To me it has a fresh, new feel yet has the spirit I loved.  BG games weren't the only games made back then.  Not all were D*&D games.   Arcanum was great and Planescape/Torment IMO still hasn't been equaled in innovation.

[Failion]

The combat in skyrim is crap compared to oblivion. Even with different kind mods it comes down to you one shotting the enemy or they one shotting you mid late game. Least in oblivion with obscuro overhaul the combat stays relevant. Enemies can be moving fast as light shooting fireballs at you that don't drop you dead instantly same deal with melee combatants.

 

They tried to make it more REALISTIC in skyrim with momentum and blows feeling like they have impact but it was way more cool when everyone can run backwards like unreal tournament and not one hitter quiter each other. Not to mention it felt more realistic for the power level of elder scrolls setting. I can run faster backwards then any skyrim character I don't see why some super human being with magic can't. Not to mention in skyrim nobody can jump if their life depended on it. When basketball players can jump 3-4x higher then folks in skyrim maybe the white boys cant jump thing is true after all xD

 

The story is 5 dollar fantasy novel crap in both games. Oblivions the better dungeon crawl hack and slash MODED

[Nakia]

^I agree.  I think taking out acrobatics was a mistake.  I heard they took it out because players didn't like or found it useless. ???  These are fantasy games so why shouldn't they look fantastical?   I think there may be too much stress on "realism".   The games aren't realistic and what they should do is make you feel that what is done is realistic to the game.  After all how many people do you know in real life who can cast a magical fireball?  Magic isn't realistic but we not only accept it in these games but expect it.

[Crowseye]

One person's "dumbing down" is another person's "streamlining" or "expunging features that were a needless hassle/busywork"  POE's relationship with the IE games is not the same as Oblivion or Skyrim have with Morrowind, but there are going to be players that find plenty of things in PoE they feel are needlessly "dumbed down" and "MMO-ified" compared to the games that supposedly inspired it.  Just because you happen to think it makes the game better and therefore is nothing to make a big deal about obviously doesn't mean that everyone will.

 

 

 

4. quest and journal system.
 
I like journal system for example when i play a game a week later i know where i let things last time. I'm not a big fan (not at all) of game that requires me to scribe down on paper to be able to play it normally.
 
How the journal system is a way to dumb down a RPG (genuine question) ? I agree with the rest though and the cake metaphor too (gotta love or hate these metaphors...)

It's not "journal systems" in general that are being condemned here, it's the specific way they're designed in many modern games. Skyrim's does away with the written details and instead, relies on quest markers. I most definitely see this as both "dumbing down" and plain old developer laziness. By contrast, Older RPGs (not just Morrowind) tended to treat their journal systems as a labor of love. Details and creativity went into them, and therefore, there was no real NEED for stuff like quest markers. If you needed to jog your memory you could read your journal and get the who, where, why and what of the quest. Baldurs Gate 2 is a terrific example of how to correctly design a journal system.

 

 

This is one of the bigger tragedies that have befallen cRPGs IMO.   Writing informative and engaging NPC dialogue and quest text that wrapped the essentials in story and lore is an art that has sadly greatly diminished because so many games rely on graphical quest markers and quest trackers.

[Stun]

The story is 5 dollar fantasy novel crap in both games. Oblivions the better dungeon crawl hack and slash MODED

You won't ever see me praising the story writing of Skyrim. (Or its combat). But I'll give credit where it IS due. The dungeons in Skyrim are rather good, in both design and atmosphere. Not to mention the fact that they all look unique, unlike the samey-samey crap from Oblivion. And frankly, as someone who enjoys 'dungeon crawls', I rank this pretty high in importance, and its the reason why I don't bash Skyrim quite as much as many other people here do. Edited December 26, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

The combat in skyrim is crap compared to oblivion. Even with different kind mods it comes down to you one shotting the enemy or they one shotting you mid late game. Least in oblivion with obscuro overhaul the combat stays relevant. Enemies can be moving fast as light shooting fireballs at you that don't drop you dead instantly same deal with melee combatants.

 

They tried to make it more REALISTIC in skyrim with momentum and blows feeling like they have impact but it was way more cool when everyone can run backwards like unreal tournament and not one hitter quiter each other. Not to mention it felt more realistic for the power level of elder scrolls setting. I can run faster backwards then any skyrim character I don't see why some super human being with magic can't. Not to mention in skyrim nobody can jump if their life depended on it. When basketball players can jump 3-4x higher then folks in skyrim maybe the white boys cant jump thing is true after all xD

 

The story is 5 dollar fantasy novel crap in both games. Oblivions the better dungeon crawl hack and slash MODED

The combat in Oblivion was complete crap.

 

Thanks to the super low damage system most player could easily heal faster than even a group of enemies could hurt them. Trivial fights would drag on forever, and the bow was nearly useless. Not to mention by mid level the player had to choose from two impossible choices:

 

1: Keep the difficulty the same and die of boredom since you are an immortal God who can heal much much faster than anyone can hurt you.

2: Increase the difficulty and die of boredom since even the most trivial of fights will drag on forever since the damage is so freakin' low.

 

It's also more limited than Skyrim's combat too so enjoy doing the same thing over-and-over.

 

The combat in Skyrim while no prize is MUCH better than Oblivion's. Just as Skyrim is much better than Oblivion.

[Luckmann]

 

The combat in skyrim is crap compared to oblivion. Even with different kind mods it comes down to you one shotting the enemy or they one shotting you mid late game. Least in oblivion with obscuro overhaul the combat stays relevant. Enemies can be moving fast as light shooting fireballs at you that don't drop you dead instantly same deal with melee combatants.

 

They tried to make it more REALISTIC in skyrim with momentum and blows feeling like they have impact but it was way more cool when everyone can run backwards like unreal tournament and not one hitter quiter each other. Not to mention it felt more realistic for the power level of elder scrolls setting. I can run faster backwards then any skyrim character I don't see why some super human being with magic can't. Not to mention in skyrim nobody can jump if their life depended on it. When basketball players can jump 3-4x higher then folks in skyrim maybe the white boys cant jump thing is true after all xD

 

The story is 5 dollar fantasy novel crap in both games. Oblivions the better dungeon crawl hack and slash MODED

The combat in Oblivion was complete crap.

 

Thanks to the super low damage system most player could easily heal faster than even a group of enemies could hurt them. Trivial fights would drag on forever, and the bow was nearly useless. Not to mention by mid level the player had to choose from two impossible choices:

 

1: Keep the difficulty the same and die of boredom since you are an immortal God who can heal much much faster than anyone can hurt you.

2: Increase the difficulty and die of boredom since even the most trivial of fights will drag on forever since the damage is so freakin' low.

 

It's also more limited than Skyrim's combat too so enjoy doing the same thing over-and-over.

 

The combat in Skyrim while no prize is MUCH better than Oblivion's. Just as Skyrim is much better than Oblivion.

 

 

Generally, I agree with you, especially since I never managed to finish Oblivion simply because it ended up dragging on forever until you just don't have it in you anymore, but as for bows sucking, I must ask you.. what?

 

Bows were insane, when combined with high Stealth, and in Oblivion, there is no excuse for not having high.. well.. everything.

 

Most enemies wouldn't even get close to you, and you could simply stay out of range and kill them in just a few shots. Most would be lucky if they even discovered you.

 

The same is true for Skyrim.

[Namutree]

 

 

The combat in skyrim is crap compared to oblivion. Even with different kind mods it comes down to you one shotting the enemy or they one shotting you mid late game. Least in oblivion with obscuro overhaul the combat stays relevant. Enemies can be moving fast as light shooting fireballs at you that don't drop you dead instantly same deal with melee combatants.

 

They tried to make it more REALISTIC in skyrim with momentum and blows feeling like they have impact but it was way more cool when everyone can run backwards like unreal tournament and not one hitter quiter each other. Not to mention it felt more realistic for the power level of elder scrolls setting. I can run faster backwards then any skyrim character I don't see why some super human being with magic can't. Not to mention in skyrim nobody can jump if their life depended on it. When basketball players can jump 3-4x higher then folks in skyrim maybe the white boys cant jump thing is true after all xD

 

The story is 5 dollar fantasy novel crap in both games. Oblivions the better dungeon crawl hack and slash MODED

The combat in Oblivion was complete crap.

 

Thanks to the super low damage system most player could easily heal faster than even a group of enemies could hurt them. Trivial fights would drag on forever, and the bow was nearly useless. Not to mention by mid level the player had to choose from two impossible choices:

 

1: Keep the difficulty the same and die of boredom since you are an immortal God who can heal much much faster than anyone can hurt you.

2: Increase the difficulty and die of boredom since even the most trivial of fights will drag on forever since the damage is so freakin' low.

 

It's also more limited than Skyrim's combat too so enjoy doing the same thing over-and-over.

 

The combat in Skyrim while no prize is MUCH better than Oblivion's. Just as Skyrim is much better than Oblivion.

 

 

Generally, I agree with you, especially since I never managed to finish Oblivion simply because it ended up dragging on forever until you just don't have it in you anymore, but as for bows sucking, I must ask you.. what?

 

Bows were insane, when combined with high Stealth, and in Oblivion, there is no excuse for not having high.. well.. everything.

 

Most enemies wouldn't even get close to you, and you could simply stay out of range and kill them in just a few shots. Most would be lucky if they even discovered you.

 

The same is true for Skyrim.

 

In oblivion a large number of enemies are basically immune to arrows, and bows do less damage than melee so using them against the most annoying enemies like trolls isn't really an option since they'll heal faster than you can hurt them. Then there's the fact that the best quest weapons are melee. If you can get past all that; the fact that bows rely on agility is their death-knell. Melee weapons are based on strength with is a very useful attribute; far more so than agility. In nearly every situation melee weapons were just better than bows.

 

In Skyrim bows were greatly enhanced.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Namutree

[Luridis]

I think Ludris posts something similar in C&C about every 6 months.

 

Still, have to agree with everything but 6. Puzzles in RPGs are generally pretty damn awful IMO.

 

 

LOL! I only posted it once! How do you figure biannually into that!

 

 

That video is a load of horse****.

 

Thankfully I don't have to waste my time arguing with it, 'cause some dude has already did it.

 

 

Yea, I saw this and I largely disagree with him aluminiumtrioxid, he did make a couple of almost good points, but failed to point out that they method they used to solve the issue was ill-conceived. But, I will say he did do a good job of putting together a well considered response, it's just not strong enough of an argument.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Luridis

[Nakia]

It all boils down to opinion.  The makers of the vids are expressing their opinions and we are expressing our opinions.

We are not critiquing technology or mechanics here but the overall look and feel of the game, the way it plays for us.  We are not even discussing bugs.   So no one is right or wrong or we are all right for ourselves and all wrong from the opposing view point.  

[Namutree]

 

Here is a 30 min video which very eloquently states the reasons and how T.E.S. franchise was dumbed down.

Even though PoE is an exclusively PC game and the target audience is different, I wonder at what degree PoE will try to avoid the 7 points the author underlines in the video and those are:

 

1. you can't fail

2. no consequences for faction membership

3. you make little impact on the world

4. quest and journal system

5. NPC conversations are heavily reduced

6. massively simplified puzzles

7. the value of items have been reduced

 

Even thought point 5 I guess will not be an issue for PoE, I recommend watching the video to understand the pitfalls a RPG nowadays faces and implicitly Pillars of Eternity too.  

1: I guess this one is kinda true, but the situation hasn't changed much since Morrowind. 

2: There are greater consequences for joining factions in Skyrim than Morrowind. Important characters will live or die based on which factions you join in Skyrim. Joining a faction means almost nothing in Morrowind besides your ability to join other factions. Compare your ability to invade Whiterun by joining the Stormcloaks in Skyrim to being less popular with rival factions in Morrowind.

3: You make a bigger impact on the world in Skyrim than in Morrowind. Which faction rules the country will change depending on your choices in Skyrim. Nothing important ever changes in Morrowind. The world is pretty much static.

4: Considering the system was so bad in Morrowind that some quests basically cannot be finished without help from the internet since the directions are sometimes extremely poorly written or flat-out wrong: I don't think the system was dumbed down since the old system was dumber.

5: This isn't the series dumbing down; it's time and budget constraints due to voice acting.

6: This is just a shift in focus. Puzzles detract from role-playing, combat, and exploration. This isn't dumbing down.

7: This isn't dumbing down either as it actually makes the game harder. Once you knew where the Uber items in Morrowind are the game becomes stupid easy.

 

 

 

Yea, I saw this and I largely disagree with him aluminiumtrioxid, he did make a couple of almost good points, but failed to point out that they method they used to solve the issue was ill-conceived. But, I will say he did do a good job of putting together a well considered response, it's just not strong enough of an argument.

 

I didn't bother watching the video, but the OP is mostly non-sense.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Namutree

[Luridis]

RE: Why the Elder Scrolls isn't dumbing down.

 

Something has placed a tap in me for forum commentary the last few days. So, I'll indulge this and at least try to be diplomatic, so many peeps accusing me of being angrycat and all. This is a response to the points the guy made in the above titled video.

1. People that complain about the supposed dumbing down of the elder scrolls series are doing so because their brain is making constant comparisons to Morrowind.

This point is conjecture. He even points out, "I know, I use to do it too." He's projecting his own experience on other people. Other people's reasons for complaining about the game may or may not be similar to his, and he has absolutely no way to know that on the larger scale. I actually have played little of Morrowind and my first ES title was Daggerfall.

2. He points out that the state of recent elder scrolls games probably have more to do with Bethesda's poor design choices than some conspiracy on the part of the "filthy casuals."

Personally, I agree with him on this 100%. I've pointed out before that I think some of the design choices (removal of notoriety or whatever it's called) were found to make the game feel static in hindsight and replaced with a very shallow mechanic (I got an arrow in the knee.)

3. Bethesda is not a particularly great developer, and compared to other studios they're arguably quite bad.

Again, I agree, to some extent. I think they actually have odd priorities that probably make them look worse than they are.

4. The developers have changed through the years.

Agreed.

5. Most of the things so-called hard core players are complaining about are complete nonsense.

Disagree. Most? As in who most? What research demographic did he use as a basis for this statement? This is his own opinion thinly disguised as a blanket argument without any substance at all.

6. The game is catering to casuals because quest givers can't die.

I don't know about that particular reason, I'd call it a poor design choice, but his justification for them doing it is a poor argument because: they could act like followers, taking a knee in until the threat is gone. They could have put a single box in settings that toggled this off and on.

7. Faction Exclusivity

His points here are absolutely meaningless. I am archmage, masterthief, dragonborn, harbinger, listener, etc. Mary Sue protagonists are immersion breaking, period. He completely missed the point and went on about the reputation slider, that's not the point, never was... Lack of failure and everyone loving you is naturally irritating to people because we know it does not exist in the real world. Picking sides should have consequences no matter what this dork says. Just because you can game the system when the sliders are near neutral is not a reason to abandon the reputation mechanic altogether, its a reason to redesign it better. Instead, Bethesda took the easy path and just gutted it. It's not about Morrowind comparisons, of which he needs to let go. It's not even about casual here, it's about terrible faction design, design dumbed down, even if it has nothing to do with the "dirty casuals."

8. Interactivity: He says, "If you manage to piss of the Thalmor, they'll dispatch squads of Justiciars to try to assassinate you."

Dead wrong. The come, whether you piss them off or not, for no apparent reason at all, just like the Dark Brotherhood assassins. It's a radiant random encounter triggered by level when you're near a random spawn point. He didn't check his facts and he just assumed that was planned interactivity when it is nothing more than silly RNG. He also mentions armed thugs, well, those are actually sent by an angered NPC. But, he just summarily attributes all of these things to player action when it's well documented to be the contrary.

9. Groups and guilds have become more believable.

Believable like becoming Harbinger of the Companions when you're already the arch-mage? They hate wizards, but somehow they seem to be completely oblivious to your use of magic. More believable my rear end.

10. Quest markers.

His argument fails. He didn't listen to the original video very much here. The original video's objections were far less about the inclusion of quest markers and far more about the lack of dialogue necessary to find what you need should you have the desire to turn the markers off. His argument here sucks and has nothing whatsoever to do with the stated problem.

"For every person that says they get more immersion from getting in-game directions instead of a quest marker, I point to this woman."

You are a tool, Mr. Video Maker... a tool. You're using one example of poorly written directions to say that the entire idea of questing without markers does not work. Tool... utter tool. I'm sorry, no diplomacy here, he's just talking out his rear and I refuse to take him seriously.

My god, he's still going on about it. Stop wasting my time with hollow arguments.

Oh, now he calls questing without markers, "archaic nonsense that has no place in a modern game" and thus the truth is revealed: a tool too thick to sort out directions. His personal loathing for not being hand-fed aside, I wonder how he survived before GPS.

And still, "I enjoy quest markers." Again, you thick cretin, it was about having enough wording to find them with the markers off. Honestly, that probably had more to do with voice acting costs than casual gamers, but the argument that it does not diminish the game for some people is hogwash. Please shutup about it now. You can't follow directions, we get that, please move on.

Alright, I am done he won't shutup about quest markers and I'm just fed up.
 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

6. The game is catering to casuals because quest givers can't die.

 

I don't know about that particular reason, I'd call it a poor design choice, but his justification for them doing it is a poor argument because: they could act like followers, taking a knee in until the threat is gone. They could have put a single box in settings that toggled this off and on.

Well, it's either that easy, in which case it takes about 10 minutes for a modder to do it (and let's face it, the crowd who finds the utterly irrelevant ability to kill plot-relevant NPCs somehow important will play the game fully modded), or not, in which case the argument is completely reasonable.

 

7. Faction Exclusivity

 

His points here are absolutely meaningless. I am archmage, masterthief, dragonborn, harbinger, listener, etc. Mary Sue protagonists are immersion breaking, period. He completely missed the point and went on about the reputation slider, that's not the point, never was... Lack of failure and everyone loving you is naturally irritating to people because we know it does not exist in the real world. Picking sides should have consequences no matter what this dork says. Just because you can game the system when the sliders are near neutral is not a reason to abandon the reputation mechanic altogether, its a reason to redesign it better. Instead, Bethesda took the easy path and just gutted it. It's not about Morrowind comparisons, of which he needs to let go. It's not even about casual here, it's about terrible faction design, design dumbed down, even if it has nothing to do with the "dirty casuals."

If one argues about how the Elder Scrolls series is dumbing down in a 30-minutes long video, and about 10 minutes of that 30 are spent on repeating "everything was better in Morrowind" and "filthy casuals" in various guises, one should not be surprised when he's called out on the fact that no, actually, Morrowind did faction reactivity way worse than Skyrim. It absolutely is about Morrowind comparisons, because it's responding to a video about Morrowind comparisons.

 

8. Interactivity: He says, "If you manage to piss of the Thalmor, they'll dispatch squads of Justiciars to try to assassinate you."

 

Dead wrong. The come, whether you piss them off or not, for no apparent reason at all, just like the Dark Brotherhood assassins. It's a radiant random encounter triggered by level when you're near a random spawn point. He didn't check his facts and he just assumed that was planned interactivity when it is nothing more than silly RNG. He also mentions armed thugs, well, those are actually sent by an angered NPC. But, he just summarily attributes all of these things to player action when it's well documented to be the contrary.

So, out of all the things like various pissed-off people sending thugs and assassins after you, people naming you as their sole heir if they like you enough, and Thalmor attacking, one is not triggered by player action. The rest of them still are; the point stands. (Still more reactivity than what Morrowind had!)

 

9. Groups and guilds have become more believable.

 

Believable like becoming Harbinger of the Companions when you're already the arch-mage? They hate wizards, but somehow they seem to be completely oblivious to your use of magic. More believable my rear end.

Believable like "behaving like actual groups of like-minded people instead of weird monolithic entities". Also, being able to become Harbinger and Archmage is still more believable than being able to become the head of two different churches, which is totally doable in Morrowind. Yay, improvement! (Which is, incidentally, exactly the polar opposite of dumbing down!)

 

The original video's objections were far less about the inclusion of quest markers and far more about the lack of dialogue necessary to find what you need should you have the desire to turn the markers off.

Three words: voice acting costs. I'd rather have VA in a triple-A game than detailed instructions on how to find quest objectives.

 

As an aside, I also like quest markers. Having an extremely limited amount of time for gaming, I'd rather spend that time doing the actual quest than deciphering possibly-poorly-written instructions on how to get there and trying to follow them.

 

You are a tool, Mr. Video Maker... a tool. (...) Tool... utter tool (...) just talking out his rear (...) a tool too thick to sort out directions (...) you thick cretin

try to be diplomatic, so many peeps accusing me of being angrycat and all

Heh.

[constantine]

Never found myself to like the ESO franchise. They seem more like a sandbox game than rpgs to me.

[Luridis]

 

You are a tool, Mr. Video Maker... a tool. (...) Tool... utter tool (...) just talking out his rear (...) a tool too thick to sort out directions (...) you thick cretin

try to be diplomatic, so many peeps accusing me of being angrycat and all

Heh.

 

 

Heh indeed! Hey, I said I would try, not that I would succeed.

 

Me calling him Mr. Tool was really about his incessant monologue about how he likes quest markers. I thought that was ridiculous to spend so much time on so I got angsty.

 

No, I do agree with some of what he says, but all in all I think both videos miss the overall problem. It's not about casuals, not about who's no longer at Bethesda. For whatever reason, some terrible design decisions were made across the board. I don't know why, so I'll just blame the PS3, because I like to do that, and unapologetically. :D

 

No, aluminiumtrioxid... I'm not actually angry, just kind of disgusted by AAA stuff at the moment. Mainly because the ones that I think are "okay" could have been exceptional with just a little TLC.

[Luridis]

Why am I inclined more towards the first video than the rebuttal? Because the same guy made the video below. And, I've never seen anyone make any kind of valid argument against it.

 

For instance: "DRM sucks, but it's necessary." No, it isn't. And, it in fact does not work, period. Games with DRM end up on torrent sites anyway, so the only people who DRM has an effect on is the people that actually bought it. That stuff is all true, yet morons bring it up again and again saying the opposite as if the more they say "DRM is necessary evil" the more it will become true. It's not, never has been, and it never will be. That's the kind of stuff that makes me angsty: trying say something is perfectly logical, in the face of a reality that proves it is not.

 

Anyway, here's the other video the guy from the first made.

 

 

Edit: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and someone's going to accuse me of flamebait or trolling.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Luridis

[Stun]

^someone already posted that video... on page 1.

 

Anyway....

8. Interactivity: He says, "If you manage to piss of the Thalmor, they'll dispatch squads of Justiciars to try to assassinate you."

 

Dead wrong. The come, whether you piss them off or not, for no apparent reason at all, just like the Dark Brotherhood assassins.

This isn't true, either. He is talking about those Justiciar encounters where you end up finding a note on their bodies specifically outlining an assasination mission against you. Those encounters do NOT occur randomly. They are triggered after your character either 1) attacks a thalmor patrol on the road; or 2) clears out Northwatch Keep (their base); or 3) does the "diplomatic immunity" quest violently; or 4) makes certain decisions during the truce talks. Edited December 28, 2014 by Stun

[500MetricTonnes]

Bethesda specialises in making the same game over and over, only each iteration possesses fewer features and more bugs. I must say, they really outdid themselves with the sheer number of bugs they managed to cram into Skyrim, such as how the release version ran about 50% slower than it should have due to Bethesda's programmers forgetting to enable compiler optimisations. Evidently their QA process amounts to little more than "Does the game install, yes/no?"

 

And not only does each game remove yet more RPG features, they also have an NPC (M'aiq the Liar) who serves no purpose but to mock fans who complain about the removal of said features. Classy, Bethesda, very classy.

 

Here's an excellent review that details more of just why Skyrim is an utterly mediocre game.

 

Having an "open world" is nothing new or unique these days, so the game gets no points for that. It's an open world with nothing interesting to find except five variants of the same dungeon (Nord crypts, caves, fort ruins, Dwemer ruins, icy caves), each containing level-scaled enemies and level-scaled loot (which will be inferior to whatever you can make yourself). All but a few enemies level up with you, meaning you'll seldom encounter anything too dangerous for you to handle. And as the OP's video explained, the presence of a quest arrow renders the whole "open world" pointless, since you'll be led by the nose wherever you go, with no exploration required.

 

Nor can you affect the world in any meaningful manner. Rising to the top of any one of the guilds might cause NPCs to give some remark like "Oh, you are the leader of the Companions"...if that. I can be the champion of every Daedric prince in Tamriel, I can be the one who defeated Alduin, I can be the Archmage of Winterhold, the Thane of almost every city in Skyrim, the one who won the civil war for the Empire...and yet when I go to join the companions, one of them says he's "never even heard of this person." Really? The world does not react to you in any way. Some shopkeeper in Riverwood was pleased that I had returned his "Golden Claw," having been very upset at its theft. I stole the thing the instant his back was turned...and he still kept talking about how glad he was to have it back every time I talked to him.

 

The game does not react to the character you've created. Some waifish, elven sorceress with pitiful melee combat skills is accepted just as readily into the Companions as some hulking Nord warrior...and that same Nord warrior can join the mages' guild just as easily as the waifish elf. Despite the obvious racism present in Skyrim, there's next to no reaction to your character's race whatsoever. Despite the fact that Windhelm is supposed to be a hotbed of prejudice against people like Dark Elves and Argonians, playing as either of those races elicited no unique responses at all. One NPC even asked my High Elf Dragonborn if I were one of those "Skyrim for the Nords" types. Um...what?

 

They barely even react to what you're wearing...someone can wear Stormcloak armour into an imperial-controlled and the worst that will happen is you'll get a few irritated remarks from certain NPCs. I distinctly recall strutting into Windhelm as a High Elf wearing Thalmor robes...and somehow I wasn't attacked on sight.

 

The quests are consummately terrible, and offer no freedom or multiple resolutions at all. Take, for instance, the "Blood on the Ice" quest. Listening to NPCs in Windhelm, you hear that a serial killer is one the loose. If you go poking around peoples' houses, you can find evidence that clearly indicates which NPC is the murderer. But can you take this evidence to the guards? No. Can you take the law into your own hands and slay the killer? No, because he's flagged as "Essential." So you are forced to go along with a few false leads, allow a few more NPCs to be murdered, before the game will allow you to deal with him. And this is how nearly every quest in the game goes.

 

Shamus Young has a five-part series talking about the Thieves' Guild and how it is a poorly-designed, badly-written quest line...and none of the other guilds are much better, to be honest.

 

Combat is even less interesting than in previous TES games, as the best way to fight is by making sneak attacks with a Daedric bow for massive damage...a strategy aided by the boneheaded enemy AI that seems awful quick to go from "Hey, someone just shot my friend in the face!" to "Ahh...it was probably nothing. Playing as a mage is distinctly unsatisfying, as spells do not scale with your level, but enemies so, so your spells will invariably become obsolete. Spellmaking is gone, and weapon enchanting has been greatly scaled back. Were player-crafted spells overpowered in Oblivion? Sure, but creating obscenely-powerful spells and weaponry was part of the fun.

 

Let's compare this to another "open world" game, Fallout: New Vegas:

 

- Your stats and attributes matter. A character with an Intelligence of 1 will talk like a moron ("I is scientistic"), while one with a higher intelligence can do things like spout Latin phrases to a Legion POW in an attempt to convince him that he's an assassin come to kill him. At the very beginning of the game, the Courier can use skills like Explosives, Speech, and Barter to convince the people of Goodsprings to aid in a fight against the Powder Gangers. Get your Speech skill high enough, you can even talk your way out of fighting the final boss.

 

- Exploration has risks and rewards. Poking about might net you some powerful loot, like the Ratslayer or YCS/186. But you might find enemies more powerful than you can handle at your level...try going into Dead Wind Cavern at a low level and see how well you fare.

 

- There are no "essential" NPCs. Everyone can be killed, even faction leaders. The only NPC that can't be killed is Yes Man, and that makes sense since he's a Securitron who can transfer his personality to another body. If I wanted to, I could empty my gun into Caesar's face and slaughter his entire camp, and the game will recognise that I killed him. When I'm confronted by Vulpes Inculta, the second his back is turned I can blow his head into bloody chunks with my 12-gauge. If this were Skyrim, I could not do that - he'd be "essential" until the exact moment the game says he must die.

 

- Many major quests have multiple solutions, often geared to specific character builds. When I go to find a new Sheriff from Primm, for example, I can either convince the NCR to pardon the former sheriff, reprogram the Primm Slim to serve as sheriff, or get the NCR to take control of Primm. And that's just one example.

 

I could go on and on about Skyrim's failings. But I'm not going to blame the dumbing down entirely on Bethesda wanting to capture the "casual market." No, I blame it on good old fashioned incompetence, which Bethesda possesses in great measure.

Edited December 28, 2014 by 500MetricTonnes

[Luridis]

^someone already posted that video... on page 1.

 

Anyway....

8. Interactivity: He says, "If you manage to piss of the Thalmor, they'll dispatch squads of Justiciars to try to assassinate you."

 

Dead wrong. The come, whether you piss them off or not, for no apparent reason at all, just like the Dark Brotherhood assassins.

This isn't true, either. He is talking about those Justiciar encounters where you end up finding a note on their bodies specifically outlining an assasination mission against you. Those encounters do NOT occur randomly. They are triggered after your character either 1) attacks a thalmor patrol on the road; or 2) clears out Northwatch Keep (their base); or 3) does the "diplomatic immunity" quest violently; or 4) makes certain decisions during the truce talks.

 

 

You are likely not correct. (likely explained last) I will post the data from UESP.net and then I will tell you how I verified this with my own test.

 

Name                        Desc.                                                                                                                                  Req.

Thalmor vs Player Three Thalmor Justiciars with an execution order hunt you down and attempt to kill you.

Level 8.

 

I started a new game. I opened the console and incPCS a few skills to level 8. I left Helgen and saved at the GuardianStones, no Thamor were encountered along the way. I repeatedly went to the back road into Riverwood. (The left turn on the road to Helgen after the GuardianStones.) I saw which random encounter was there and reloaded so that no Thalmor prior to this encounter were recorded. After about 6 tries I was attacked by a random encounter of Thalmor assassins without ever having encountered them before on the current save.

 

To be honest, I've played through so many restarts of Skyrim I didn't even really need to do this. I've gotten pretty good at guessing just about when and where I can expect them based on when they're up on the radiant AI. Note that there is another one, that some of the game guides report happening only after you've started The Black Star quest line, 2 necromancers attack the player. I have also encountered this without actually starting that quest, and even UESP, which is fairly reliable, shows that condition.

 

So, if I am experiencing something different than the norm, and my game isn't behaving as it should then the only thing I can think of is that something in the Unofficial Skyrim Patches changes those. But, from where I stand and my own testing the video, and you claim were not verifiable.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Luridis

[Luridis]

I could go on and on about Skyrim's failings. But I'm not going to blame the dumbing down entirely on Bethesda wanting to capture the "casual market." No, I blame it on good old fashioned incompetence, which Bethesda possesses in great measure.

 

I can't argue with any point you made. They're all good, but I still find I like the game. Perhaps it's the ability to just go anywhere after the game starts. And, that somehow, my own imagination fills in the details they did not. That said, I also find myself infuriated by it at the same time for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Again, I see a game that could be so much better with a little TLC.

 

Oh, there is one thing I can argue with...

 

There is one NPC in the game who is quite racist and will react badly if you are anything but a Nord, that being the owner of the sawmill in Falkreath's capitol.

 

Edit: There is actually a hysterical bug video on youtube somewhere of the Imperial Legion charging and one of the imperial soldiers screaming, "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" That's the sort of lack of attention to detail that makes me more and more inclined to skip AAA titles every day.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Luridis

[Luridis]

Oh, and I do like this point 500metric, from the thieves guild break down:

 

 

Game designer: Once again you have shot yourselves in the foot. You could sell the idea of Mercer being a badass if you hadn’t already forced us to team up with him and shown us what a complete clown he is. You undercut your villain before you even established him as a villain!

 

There are so many frustrating things in Skyrim that I find myself asking the question, out loud, "What idiot wrote this? Did he or she even attend school past middle?"

 

That's really sad, sad I am talking about a game designer in a highly competitive industry who is apparently so inept that I'm asking whether or not this person, finished highschool. I'll bet even the greenest of the greenhorn designers here at Obsidian could have done that quest line better. Based on what I've seen in their various products.

[Luckmann]

Oh, and I do like this point 500metric, from the thieves guild break down:

 

 

Game designer: Once again you have shot yourselves in the foot. You could sell the idea of Mercer being a badass if you hadn’t already forced us to team up with him and shown us what a complete clown he is. You undercut your villain before you even established him as a villain!

 

There are so many frustrating things in Skyrim that I find myself asking the question, out loud, "What idiot wrote this? Did he or she even attend school past middle?"

 

That's really sad, sad I am talking about a game designer in a highly competitive industry who is apparently so inept that I'm asking whether or not this person, finished highschool. I'll bet even the greenest of the greenhorn designers here at Obsidian could have done that quest line better. Based on what I've seen in their various products.

 

I honestly think that a lot of the developers that are subjected to the "Oh god what the hell were they thinking?" line of thought are actually decent, decently intelligent persons that are just stuck in the situation(s) where they just have to go like "...well I guess it's the best that I get to do this time around.. *sigh*" or have just flat-out given up trying. There's no end of people that get their soul crushed in industry (no matter the industry) and just ends up wondering who the hell eats the **** you end up creaming out to earn a living.

[Nakia]

Creativity is totally different from technical knowledge.  A child of five without knowing the "correct" Technics can be very creative.  I also think there are several reasons for the change from how Morrowind was done and how Oblivion and Skyrim where done.

 

1) technology - the advances in technology gave the industry some new toys to work with. 3D graphics for one.

2) Players - The ones who have complaints are most apt to post so the industry hears from them and not from those who like certain things.  Bethesda does respond to players.  For Skyrim they took a look at popular mods and did try to incorporate some of those into the game.

3) Consoles and mobile devices - both very popular these days.

[Lord Wafflebum]

You've got to give Bethesda a lot of credit for giving so much support to the modding community. By giving the general public development tools they can fix all the problem your programmers couldn't (Unofficial Skyrim patches) and GREATLY enhance what you've put into the game (Look at the popular overhaul & immersion mods) and extend the lifespan of the game (Unofficial expansions like Falskaar). 

 

I hope it's something Bioware starts paying attention to. If you're not confident you can support your games spend the extra time and money to put out the tools for the mod community to do so. It's much less work your studio needs to do in the long run, extends the life of the game, and as Skyrim mods have shown give aspiring game developers a way to develop a portfolio. Everyone wins.

[Stun]

The game does not react to the character you've created. Some waifish, elven sorceress with pitiful melee combat skills is accepted just as readily into the Companions as some hulking Nord warrior...and that same Nord warrior can join the mages' guild just as easily as the waifish elf. Despite the obvious racism present in Skyrim, there's next to no reaction to your character's race whatsoever. Despite the fact that Windhelm is supposed to be a hotbed of prejudice against people like Dark Elves and Argonians, playing as either of those races elicited no unique responses at all. One NPC even asked my High Elf Dragonborn if I were one of those "Skyrim for the Nords" types. Um...what?

 

They barely even react to what you're wearing...someone can wear Stormcloak armour into an imperial-controlled and the worst that will happen is you'll get a few irritated remarks from certain NPCs. I distinctly recall strutting into Windhelm as a High Elf wearing Thalmor robes...and somehow I wasn't attacked on sight.

This one's a giant SO WHAT.

 

None of the IE games react to the character you created either - which means that in terms of RPG significance, it must not matter that much to the game's fun factor. And... it doesn't. More to the point: I rank NPCs walking up to you and saying "Hey! you're an elf!" or "Hey, you're a half orc cleric who's wearing leather armor! Get off my lawn!" just slightly more important than being able to customize the shape of your nose in the character creator.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Stun