Solo Character Play, Ended in "Draw" = Game Over

[Osvir]

I went to the inn, dropped the BB NPC's and went on to adventure out with a Solo character (Normal) in an attempt to see how far I could go.

I didn't prepare well, didn't buy any potions or even rested, I just wanted to see how well a fresh BB Character would do against the world. Naturally, I didn't get too far, went down on the first beetle. Something interesting happened though, and am curious what others thing about it.

Basically: We both went down at the same time (Beetle defeated+Endurance 0 on my character).

If all Endurance go down to "0" on your characters, but you manage to take out the enemy with your final desperate blow (Or maybe you threw a final spell, and mid-air you get last-hitted, but the fireball blows everything up and theoretically you win) as you fall to the ground, should this be "Game Over"?

Edited December 1, 2014 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Yep.

[morhilane]

If all Endurance go down to "0" on your characters, but you manage to take out the enemy with your final desperate blow (Or maybe you threw a final spell, and mid-air you get last-hitted, but the fireball blows everything up and theoretically you win) as you fall to the ground, should this be "Game Over"?

 

In all games I played, this have been considered a "game over" for a solo character.

 

I've been lucky with "still standing with 1 HP" a few times though.

[Osvir]

Yes yes. But "Endurance" != "Health" in Pillars of Eternity.

I managed to defeat the Beetle, is what I'm saying, and I got knocked out to 0 Endurance. Not 0 Health.

If I had had 2 characters, the one with 0 Endurance would get up and regenerate the lost Endurance (as is standard in the game) after the Beetle got defeated.

What happened?
- Attack animation and attack resolution, the beetle and my character went down at the same time. The beetle was killed, my character got "knocked out" (Not killed, and would've gotten up to regenerate if there'd been 1 more character in the party).

I can understand game over if the Beetle had been alive, or if I have 6 party members all "knocked out" and the enemy is still alive. In this case, the enemy wasn't alive, but my character was, and it was still "Game Over".

Edited December 1, 2014 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Exactly, all of your characters (1) are knocked out, game over.

[morhilane]

Yes yes. But "Endurance" != "Health" in Pillars of Eternity.

 

I managed to defeat the Beetle, is what I'm saying, and I got knocked out to 0 Endurance. Not 0 Health.

 

If I had had 2 characters, the one with 0 Endurance would get up and regenerate the lost Endurance (as is standard in the game) after the Beetle got defeated.

 

What happened?

- Attack animation and attack resolution, the beetle and my character went down at the same time. The beetle was killed, my character got "knocked out" (Not killed, and would've gotten up to regenerate if there'd been 1 more character in the party).

 

I can understand game over if the Beetle had been alive, or if I have 6 party members all "knocked out" and the enemy is still alive. In this case, the enemy wasn't alive, but my character was, and it was still "Game Over".

 

There is plenty of games out there where reaching 0 HP means you are knocked out too and everyone in the party being knocked out means "game over" in those games. Why would it work differently if the party is composed of 6 or 1 person?

[Hormalakh]

bandits in the woods. you can role-play your fears away: you got knocked out now? don't worry a bandit came by and killed you while you were "sleeping."

 

adventuring alone is never a good idea.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Gairnulf]

Basically, if you are soloing the game, you are foregoing the health/endurance mechanic. Your health doesn't matter, just the endurance.

[Sensuki]

Health does matter, it's a strategic resource.

[Osvir]

I don't know if I'm understood correctly.

My characters Endurance went to 0, but I also killed the Beetle. I'm sure this is a very rare occurance, but something I felt worthy of a discussion still. In a standard party, if Endurance went down to 0 on one character, the character would get up if the Beetle died. If the Beetle had survived with 1 HP, I feel "Game Over" makes much sense, but in the situation where the Beetle died, I felt it didn't. Why? Because the opponent was defeated, and my character still alive (according to the Health/Endurance Rules/Mechanics, had it been a standard party).

Interesting & insightful input though :D thanks!

@Hormalakh: I'm going to roll a full party in the released version, but I'm also trying various combinations in the Beta to see what works for me/what I enjoy (currently I'm digging the Orlans a lot) and what doesn't work for me/what I don't enjoy (in builds, party compositions and size of party). There isn't just one build, but several class combinations, with many different ways to play the game.

And I'm also curious about "How strong is just 1 character on his own in this world?".

Edited December 1, 2014 by Osvir

[Gairnulf]

I understood that you would like to have your soloing character get up and regenerate endurance as he would have if there were other conscious party members around him when there are no enemies present.

 

I agree it would make sense in the case which you're describing - when both you are unconscious and the enemy is dead after the last strike.

 

What I was saying is that under the present system, if you are soloing you can't afford to lose all your endurance, and it doesn't matter how much health you have. Your endurance goes to zero, game over.

 

I only recently discovered how intelligently conceived the health/endurance system is. Having a long-term health in practice turns a dungeon into a "long-term battle" where every individual battle has you striving to protect your health as much as possible, because you don't know in advance how many more individual battles you will need your health for until you finish the "long-term battle". This concept adds uncertainty for the player in such a way that the game becomes more interesting, and also makes save-scumming more difficult, because of the difficulty to predict if you did good in the last battle or you could bave done better by saving more health.

[Hormalakh]

I understood that you would like to have your soloing character get up and regenerate endurance as he would have if there were other conscious party members around him when there are no enemies present.

 

I agree it would make sense in the case which you're describing - when both you are unconscious and the enemy is dead after the last strike.

 

What I was saying is that under the present system, if you are soloing you can't afford to lose all your endurance, and it doesn't matter how much health you have. Your endurance goes to zero, game over.

 

I only recently discovered how intelligently conceived the health/endurance system is. Having a long-term health in practice turns a dungeon into a "long-term battle" where every individual battle has you striving to protect your health as much as possible, because you don't know in advance how many more individual battles you will need your health for until you finish the "long-term battle". This concept adds uncertainty for the player in such a way that the game becomes more interesting, and also makes save-scumming more difficult, because of the difficulty to predict if you did good in the last battle or you could bave done better by saving more health.

this is exactly why this mechanic was put in. a good mechanic, of course.

 

My point to Osvir was that the mechanic is obviously not simulationist and abstracted. It's not really "endurance" the way you're thinking about it and the time between being knocked out and revived is also abstracted, if you want to look at this from a realistic point of view. Hence why players get up after the fight. Ultimately, any individual's loss of endurance to zero means that the player is knocked out for an arbitrary period of time. You are revived when battles are no longer imminent and you have a group of people to protect your body (someone else in the party is not unconscious). Otherwise, it's just as feasible and possible that while you were knocked out, somebody came over, looted your body and cut your throat.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Hormalakh

[constantine]

Although not shown in game, your comrades are supposed to treat your wounded body and bring you back to consciousness when the battle ends.

 

But you succumb to your wounds if alone and not receiving treatment.

 

It's somewhat like in D&D, where 0 HP drops you,but actual death happens at -10 HP, a point you will most likely get to unless someone treats you (you continue to lose HP until you stabilise)

Edited December 2, 2014 by constantine

[Gairnulf]

Yeah, I agree with Hormalakh, that time is meant to pass differently when in and out of battle.

[Osvir]

Although not shown in game, your comrades are supposed to treat your wounded body and bring you back to consciousness when the battle ends.

 

But you succumb to your wounds if alone and not receiving treatment.

This makes most sense to me, albeit, I still think that 0 Endurance (Knocked out) isn't quite 0 Health (Death).

 

Getting hit, your Endurance goes down, but also your Health at times. Taking Health damage would equal taking a cut, you're hit and bleeding. Or punched or whatever. 

 

And I don't think that 10-20 Health Damage is quite life-threatening wounds or damage (It was still green when I got knocked out).

Edited December 2, 2014 by Osvir

[ISC]

On the wiki under "Endurance" it is stated that "If a character loses all of his or her Stamina, they will be knocked unconscious and will die unless tended." I dont know where this is from, but it supports the idea that other party members apparently tend to the wounded 'off-screen'.

Edited December 2, 2014 by ISC

[Osvir]

It's from Update #24 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/328976

Edited December 2, 2014 by Osvir

[Gorbag]

The reason for this is that the KO/game over mechanic does not check if there are any enemies around in order to decide whether to trigger the game over screen or not, so it really does not matter if you get overwhelmed, you end up in a draw or you just trigger a trap. Your party gets KO'd, you immediately get game over whatever the reason. And since soloing is basically a party of 1... 
I guess the mechanic could be modified to check for enemies, but I'm pretty sure it will be a lot of work for little gain. Furthermore we may end up getting another easily breakable mechanic. 
From a roleplaying point of view (as with all other mechanics), one may explain this however they want.