Not encouraged

[kat7ra]

Imho the IE games were not hard to grasp, to master it takes some playing though.

 

My first experience with these kind of games were BG1, and as a 10 year old kid, who had just started reading English it was a huge challenge, but I still plowed through, though the last boss was kinda hard with a party of level 4 characters. But even with language barriers and relatively little gaming experience compared to todays kids it wasn't impossible. BUT, the game is not made for kids, writing, difficulty level and pacing it's all made for a more adult audience, and for an audience that is willing to read... a lot.

 

If you're not willing to spend a lot of time reading in these kind of games, then it's not made for you. If you are willing to read a lot, then the IE games are plenty accessible for anyone, they're just not fast games, it takes a while to get rolling, both your understanding and the game itself.

 

For me though, this is probably 50 % or more of the charm, and one of the main reasons I prefer BG1 over BG2, the slow steady pace that rarely goes into "epic" mode, but keeps you on the edge of your seat. It's actually a lot like Dark souls in the feel of the game, it's very dark at points, and you feel small and insignificant at times, but when you manage to beat those mages, or that assasin for the first time, it is SO so so rewarding. And like DS when you get to know the game and it's mechanics you can start doing speed runs, or perfect runs, and all the enemies are dust in front of your eyes, but you never forget the feeling of being small and weak, and for me, that ment never losing respect for the game. It thought me so much about English, tactics, problem solving and storytelling and I really felt like I mastered the game after hours upon HOURS of gaming. While a lot of todays games are mastered in a fraction of the time I needed for BG1.

 

TL:DR

IE games are awesomer than new games, don't change the spirit of the game because ppl have forgotten patience.

[redneckdevil]

Tbh i dont "think" its because the players have forgotten patience, its more along the lines that a very good bit of them who was there at the beginning have grown up and have jobs and familys and real life that now dont have the time to sit all afternoon tinkering and retrying and etc like they did back then.

teenage years, played all afternoon and all night til i had to go yo school. Now?.......im lucky if i get an hour or 2 back to back within a few days.

 

 

And thats the double edged sword i fear. I think that is the problem with games now a days because they are designing around that mentality but with a younger age bracket. No longer are trying to test our brains and imaginations but trying to market to people who can just pick up and go and put it down and come back (and sadly they are semiright in that design decision). The older gamers who are lacking in the time they once used to be able to spend, designing around that imho has hurt the younger generation who has to go back in time to find these type of games.

So whule a company needs money to CONTINUE, sadly there is reason why games have been being made the way they are. Do i think its right? Hell No! But i do see the reasoning behind it from a finacial continuing to exist train of thought.

[Sheikh]

The generation of retards was/is a storm before a breeze though, no need to worry about that. Indigo children are now growing up and they wont go with noattentionspan games.

[Nakia]

According to recent stats the average age of gamers is 31,  less than 20% of gamers teenagers.  Gamers are getting older.  Retirees are entering the gaming field.  I have seen stats that say that 48% of gamers are women.

 

More and more people are using mobile devices which will affect how games are made.  How these changes in Gamers will affect the market I do not know but I am sure it will for the better or worse.

[Lord Wafflebum]

Ahem, to get back on topic...

 

@ls35a

I wouldn't worry too much about accessibility. I've been playing the beta for awhile, and as time goes on the betas have become much more friendly to the less intense gamers (on Easy, anyway). I was really frustrated for awhile, but in posts Josh Sawyer has made on the forums there have been assurances that the tutorials put into the game will help new players to understand the mechanics and at least from the current beta build the learning curve will be much easier if you play on Easy.

 

That said, I suspect if you try to play on Hard out the gate you'll be in for an unpleasant ride. However, everything I've seen to this point suggests that this game will only be inaccessible to people that are unwilling to learn a new playstyle.

[Sheikh]

Intuitive gameplay and game mechanics > tutorials.

 

We dont need to reeinvent humanity. I dont see how serious tutorials would ever be neccessary. This is what many games around 2000 got right and again we have forgotten how to do this. Sadly it looks like Eternity has not gotten around to unforgetting it yet either.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Sheikh

[Lord Wafflebum]

That's not fair.

 

Tutorials can be done well to familiarize players with new mechanics and systems. I don't see how helping players familiarize themselves with the game has anything to do with "reinventing humanity." In my opinion, games that have no need of tutorials tend to be too much on the basic side. Intuitive gameplay and tutorials need not be mutually exclusive. Most of the actual interactions with things in the beta are intuitive, but I want the tutorials for little things that I may be missing. The only thing in the beta that has frustrated me so far is the combat, but as the latest patch has shown me that was more a matter of balance/ system tweaking than anything else.

[kat7ra]

Baldurs Gate had a long tutorial, so I don't see how having tutorials is a bad thing. As everything else in a game, it depends on how well it is done and implemented.

[Hassat Hunter]

Haven't really read the entire thread but...

 

"RPG's are too hard!"

*plays 4X games*

...

...

...

WHAT?

[BigBripa]

Love 4X and am wading back into RPGs, I was raised on jrpgs but got Buldars Gate free with my first Gateway PC (back when Gateway was a thing) and have done most elder scrolls and all DA's, Witchers and wow. The difficulty and accessibility of 4X (beyond Civ, p much) are way bigger barriers to entry than in RPGs of any type (albeit by design)

 

I think its obv that most people into PoE are craving depth and difficulty but compare that to learning a game like AoW3 where "decent" mp players routinely have over 400 hours logged and good ones can have over 1000, or Endless Legend where there is zero explanation of how to perform even very fundamental tasks like leveling provinces, and likewise wherein 100 logged hours basically means you can barely play. Its just an RPG, take her easy and enjoy, people ostensibly come for swords and magic and questing, I doubt it will get any more accessible.

 

And I love DA:I combat, really lets you do all the stuff you would want to do as a Warrior/Mage/Rogue, but the downside is toward the end the 8 hotkeys are just so limiting. And it is quite mindless, even on the hardest difficulties.

[TMZuk]

Just read the latest blog report on game status.   Read about how complex and fast the game was and how steep the 'learning curve' is. 

I really hope they work on that.   I have never played an RPG (I'm a big 4X gamer) but thought this might be a good one to try.  

Well, maybe not.   I'll be sure to read the reviews before I buy because it looks like this is turning out to be yet ANOTHER 'RPG game for RPG grognards. 

Games need to be more accessible.   At least that's my take on PC games and it's been that way for twenty years.   

This game was funded by RPG grognards. Sorry, mate. You are barking up against the wrong tree.

[rjshae]

 

Just read the latest blog report on game status.   Read about how complex and fast the game was and how steep the 'learning curve' is. 

I really hope they work on that.   I have never played an RPG (I'm a big 4X gamer) but thought this might be a good one to try.  

Well, maybe not.   I'll be sure to read the reviews before I buy because it looks like this is turning out to be yet ANOTHER 'RPG game for RPG grognards. 

Games need to be more accessible.   At least that's my take on PC games and it's been that way for twenty years.   

This game was funded by RPG grognards. Sorry, mate. You are barking up against the wrong tree.

 

Perhaps even Yggdrasil?

[ojthesimpson]

Im gonna buy it because I want to see gamers making games for gamers. Even if it's a shaky start, so what, the goal is far too noble to ignore. I bought wasteland 2 charitably thinking it would suck because of reviewers and was absolutely blown away by the quality and how much I enjoyed it, so.  . . . to each their own. 

I bought Baldurs Gate EE thinking it would be a waste of money  but I thought it was great that there's people out their unhappy with where RPG's have gone in the last 15 years... I enjoyed that game alot and it's new content was very enjoyable. I guess I like the style so much it's hard to go wrong by people like me.

I suggest you give it a try. 50 buck is a lot of money but it's going to great company trying to break through a studio system that reminds me of the silent era movie studios. I also am willing to bet the finished product will be very playable for all skill levels. How hard is it to decrease hit points of mobs and give hints to puzzles? And the modding community I'm sure will have their crack at it. So the game now or at least the game 2-3 years from now will be great I'm sure of it.

[Sheikh]

That's not fair.

 

Tutorials can be done well to familiarize players with new mechanics and systems. I don't see how helping players familiarize themselves with the game has anything to do with "reinventing humanity." In my opinion, games that have no need of tutorials tend to be too much on the basic side. Intuitive gameplay and tutorials need not be mutually exclusive. Most of the actual interactions with things in the beta are intuitive, but I want the tutorials for little things that I may be missing. The only thing in the beta that has frustrated me so far is the combat, but as the latest patch has shown me that was more a matter of balance/ system tweaking than anything else.

The less intuitive the gameplay the more tutorials are needed. If theres like a tiny tutorial thats fine by me though I never felt the need for it in IWD2 and that one was a complex game in many ways. It was intuition combined with depth.

[Lord Wafflebum]

I disagree that intuitive gameplay means that it is a better game. I had no idea the first few times I played through Baldur's Gate that a low AC was GOOD. Games like that could have used a brief tutorial for the uninitiated so that we knew what the deal was with the game mechanics. I think PoE would be well served by some brief tutorials. I don't want to see the entire first act end up being a drawn out tutorial, but I do feel there should be something. All the mechanics going into this game are new.

 

Considering how OE handled the tutorial for F:NV, I'm not worried about the tutorial being overbearing. It's something you could skip completely in that game and I suspect in PoE it, too, will be something you can either skip or turn off. I'm confident OE has enough experience in game development where they know where to strike the balance. Replay value goes down when you have trudge through a tutorial for the fifth or 20th time and I doubt they're strangers to that concept.

 

So, when you say something such as "Intuitive gameplay and game mechanics > tutorials" I don't think you're being fair. I think games have suffered from creating systems that so intuitive that a certain level of complex gameplay no longer exists. Granted it makes games more accessible for everyone, but most folks that are playing PoE are looking for more complex gameplay. It all comes down to striking the right balance.

[Vaalac]

Yeah, BG was terrible for someone who don't know D&D's rules. I mean I finished BG 1 and BG 2 and I'm still not sure to understand everything about these god damn stats. I also think a skippable tutorial is a good idea.

[Lord Wafflebum]

The only reason I knew what was going on in BG2 is because my friends and I started playing tabletop AD&D after BG1 because BG1 was so much fracking fun.

[Nakia]

D&D/AD*D  was a popular tabletop/PnP game and there were published rules for it so many people did know the rules and could help those who didn't.  I don't think any modern games have the restrictions those games had.    Developers make the rules for their games and some tutorial is needed or game FAQ resource.

 

I had more problems with Icewind Dale II  which used the 3.5 AD&D system which I didn't know and never really understood.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Nakia