Not encouraged

[Sheikh]

What kind of special needs does OP have that he cant access games? I mean specifically. Because lets be ****ing honest here, this thread has basically nothing to do with pillars because OP finds almost all games inaccesible. Therefore this thread is 5% about Pillars and 95% about OP being handicapped.

 

And dont get offended OP, I love you and we all love you, but its the truth (if you claim so?). So Pillars is not responsible if you will find it inaccessible.

 

He ddint even say how Pillars is inaccessible and thats because he cant, he hasnt played it. Neither have most of us I suppose. If we were talking concretely about how to make pillars more accessible, we'd have something to talk about, but since we dont, we need to wait till the game is released. Since accessibility by itself is indeed a good thing. On the other hand sacrificing depth for accessibility is almost always pretty horrible, especially since it is never really neccessary. But I mean just crying that Pillars is inaccessible before you even played it...wow.

 

if Pillars is going to be more accessible than BG or IWD2 too, which is likely, dear lord thats simple, for me at least.

 

So basically OP, learn to take other people itno account. Just because you would find Pillars inaccessible doesnt mean everyone else would find it enjoyable to play a hatchet jobbed Pillars.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[kat7ra]

Uhm, so yeah.

Kickstarter games actually don't have to be accesible for most ppl, it's the point of kickstarter. You go around the produces that demand the game to be viable for a huge amount of players, and get the players that like the concept to pitch in.
Would I like pillars to ressurect this genre? Sure, but if it can stay alive with kickstarter I don't have the need for everyone playing these kind of games. As long as there are enough of us to keep on kickstarting them.

 

OP: I'd love for you to like and buy this game, and if you play 4x games it shouldn't be a problem. But this is a game founded and made for the fans of a certain type of game, not so that everyone will like it.

Anyway, I'm just repeating what other ppl have said already.

[Yellow Rabbit]

That reminds me of this comment thread on RPS where the guy watched recent pre-alpha gameplay video of T:ToN and said that it has "ridiculous setting and too much poorly written dialogues, the same issues Planescape:Torment had".

 

No offense meant OP but this game was funded by "rpg grognards" and should please them in the first place. The rest of us will have to do with that.

[Teslacrashed]

Lot of irony that a 4X gamer thinks games need to be more accessible.

I call troll.

[morhilane]

Lot of irony that a 4X gamer thinks games need to be more accessible.

 

I call troll.

 

My reaction as well...

[ls35a]

 

Lot of irony that a 4X gamer thinks games need to be more accessible.

 

I call troll.

 

My reaction as well...

Hey, once you get past the first 100 hours it's a cake-walk.... 

[Nakia]

My reaction is that if accessible = easy I hope this game is not accessible.  I didn't make a Kickstarter pledge to Obsidian on the first day of their Kickstarter to get an easy game.  Yes I believe the people who showed faith in Obsidian and backed the game have the right to expect the game to be the spiritual child of the IE games.  Depth, strategy,  challenges and a thinking person's game

[Sheikh]

Depth, strategy,  challenges and a thinking person's game

High five!

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[Bryy]

Uhm, so yeah.

Kickstarter games actually don't have to be accesible for most ppl, it's the point of kickstarter. You go around the produces that demand the game to be viable for a huge amount of players, and get the players that like the concept to pitch in.

Would I like pillars to ressurect this genre? Sure, but if it can stay alive with kickstarter I don't have the need for everyone playing these kind of games. As long as there are enough of us to keep on kickstarting them.

 

OP: I'd love for you to like and buy this game, and if you play 4x games it shouldn't be a problem. But this is a game founded and made for the fans of a certain type of game, not so that everyone will like it.

 

Anyway, I'm just repeating what other ppl have said already.

Kickstarter games do have to be accessible.

 

Because they still need to sell.

[Lephys]

 

Lot of irony that a 4X gamer thinks games need to be more accessible.

 

I call troll.

 

My reaction as well...

 

Honestly, I just call horribly mistaken person. IF it actually is a troll, then they'll get off on the recognition that they're trolling. Thus, it's probably prudent to simply say "Hmm, that's odd, 'cause 4X games are typically ludicrously complex for newbs" and move along. Although, I'm not really sure anything's "best" when dealing with an actual troll. 8P Except fire (gotta stop 'dat regen!)

[Sheikh]

Kickstarter games do have to be accessible.

 

Because they still need to sell.

Actually, they dont need to sell, thats the point of kickstarter jesus christ 

 

Feed the devs while they make the game so they could make it while earning their living without being dependant upon special interest parties like the publisher.

 

Any copies it sells is just a very nice bonus   

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[Guard Dog]

Oh now they certainly need to sell. I doubt the kickstarter paid for the entire development costs. I'm sure Obsidian has invested some of it's own capital in this project. But more to the point we want it to sell because we want more of these kinds of games don't we? If PoE sells well there is a good chance a publisher will underwrite a sequel. If it sells really well and demonstrates there is a market for this kind of game we may see a few other projects in the vein pop up at Obsidian and elsewhere. Best case it can lead to a CRPG renaissance. That might be overly optimistic but it is certainly possible.

 

Computer games have become something like rock concerts. Every show has to be bigger, brighter and louder than the last. More lights, more pyrotechnics, etc. But something is getting lost in the enhanced 3D graphics and more detailed textures that chew up more and more resources on our computers... if our computers will run them at all. Why do you think we still talk about Torment, Baldur's Gate I & II, Fallout II etc all these years and games after they disappeared from store shelves?

 

Those games had a story to tell. You didn't play them you lived them. Sometimes modern games will still catch the lightning in the bottle. I thought Fallout New Vegas did that. But for the most part they are really pretty and pretty empty. That's why I'm encouraged by not just what I see about PoE but about who's making it and I hope there will be more to follow.

[Sheikh]

Yeah so we start sacrificing the game in any way at all so it could sell so we could get more games like this la da dada dada da

 

It doesnt work that way.

 

That will devolve back to where we started - special interests, such as a publisher who just want to make money. So it is no longer based on free will.

 

What capital does Obsidian even have? Obsidian doesnt have any capital, its owners do.

 

The whole point of kickstarter is we dont have to worry about whether there is a market for it. We get to know that before development starts. If we think like you said Guard Dog, there literally is no point and I dont believe that is the case. Kickstarter games dont need to have a market. The backers are the market.

 

Its nice of you to be so concerned for Obsidian that they have a market and all and that they can continue operation and so on, but they can manage that themselves I am sure.

 

Obsidian deciding to spend all of the money - as they said, on the game, is their choice. They wouldn t even have to do that and they could make a lesser game too and hell thatd even be fine as far as it goes, by me at least.

 

Let the grown men do their job! They dont need their finances babysat, they can handle them.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sheikh

[ManifestedISO]

Are you on quaaludes, man. 

[Nakia]

I hope PoE sells well as that will give give Obsidian capital to continue making this type of game.  There will be no need for them to have to cater to the demands of a publisher.  I recall that when the Kickstarter was running but had proven to be successful that a publisher, unnamed, approached them and offered to underwrite the and Obsidian turned them down.  Originally Obsidian had a Kickstarter goal of 1 mil dollars.  Word spread like wild fire and with 31 hours they had their 1 mil.  There is a market for the type of game Obsidian is developing.

 

What bewilders me is with the game nearing the finish people coming on and saying or implying that Obsididan should now cater to what they want and rewrite the game.  How would the Backers feel if Obsidian suddenly changed this to game dumped down and no long a spiritual child of the Infinity Engine games?  I for one would be very upset in fact I would be furious.

 

We backed them because they said they wanted to develop a certain type of game that we dreamed of, talked about, speculated about.   Why is it so hard for people to understand that if they dumped down this game they would lose a staunch fan base and for what?  

 

The game already gives choices, you can choose your own style of gameplay, your own difficult level from easy to Iron Man.  You can choose how much hand holding you want.  There choices very man different gameplayers.  I am sure there will be a tutorial section to help newbies learn how to play the game.  There will be guides on how to play.   More experienced players will be happy to help those having problems.

 

Speaking strictly for myself I say it is my turn now, my  turn to have a game that want, not one dumped down for consoles, mobile device or players who need their hand held and led through the game or want a game so easy that by the time you reach level 12 it is boring or that needs mods to bring life to it.

 

Let put another way, I helped to fund this game and I want what I have already paid for both directly and through a couple of groups.

[Sheikh]

You know they can just make another kickstarter if they want to make another game like this.

 

I sure hope Obsidian makes tons of money by selling this game too and I wish them the best and hope they make more games like this in the future, especially if this one is going to be awesome which is what its looking like, but it doesnt really matter at all to be honest.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sheikh

[Yellow Rabbit]

Why wouldn't PoE sell well? I mean, Wasteland 2 did fairly good, right? And that Divinity half genius half mediocrity thing. PoE is already pretty eagerly anticipated by lot of people, and not all of them are backers.

BG series made name for Bioware and, as far as I know, sold very good in the days back then. I know, market changed, genre degraded and people putting up with that, but still, if a lot of people liked game of this kind then why wouldn't they like it today? Habit to "rpgs" like Skyrim cannot be that bad.

[Bryy]

 

Kickstarter games do have to be accessible.

 

Because they still need to sell.

Actually, they dont need to sell, thats the point of kickstarter jesus christ 

 

Feed the devs while they make the game so they could make it while earning their living without being dependant upon special interest parties like the publisher.

 

Any copies it sells is just a very nice bonus   

 

Okay.

 

I know you think that evil companies are run by evil, evil spirits or ghosts or whatever that can inhabit our bodies if we don't get enough colon cleanses or whatnot, but do you know how companies work?

 

They need to make money to stay existent.

 

Obsidian is working off loss right now. Every single copy rewarded through the Kickstarter is a loss.

 

That's the harsh truth.

[gogocactus]

Simply put, I think that Sheikh has an overly idealistic concept of kickstarter. I would have to agree with Bry here. No matter what your own personal opinion is on the nature of kickstarter, and on what you funded by pledging money, at the end of the day Obsidian will want to, must, even sell as many copies of the game as possible in order to thrive as a company.

[Sheikh]

 

 

Kickstarter games do have to be accessible.

 

Because they still need to sell.

Actually, they dont need to sell, thats the point of kickstarter jesus christ 

 

Feed the devs while they make the game so they could make it while earning their living without being dependant upon special interest parties like the publisher.

 

Any copies it sells is just a very nice bonus   

 

Okay.

 

I know you think that evil companies are run by evil, evil spirits or ghosts or whatever that can inhabit our bodies if we don't get enough colon cleanses or whatnot, but do you know how companies work?

 

They need to make money to stay existent.

 

Obsidian is working off loss right now. Every single copy rewarded through the Kickstarter is a loss.

 

That's the harsh truth.

 

And how do you know that?

[kat7ra]

 

 

Kickstarter games do have to be accessible.

 

Because they still need to sell.

Actually, they dont need to sell, thats the point of kickstarter jesus christ 

 

Feed the devs while they make the game so they could make it while earning their living without being dependant upon special interest parties like the publisher.

 

Any copies it sells is just a very nice bonus   

 

Okay.

 

I know you think that evil companies are run by evil, evil spirits or ghosts or whatever that can inhabit our bodies if we don't get enough colon cleanses or whatnot, but do you know how companies work?

 

They need to make money to stay existent.

 

Obsidian is working off loss right now. Every single copy rewarded through the Kickstarter is a loss.

 

That's the harsh truth.

 

I don't know if I agree with that though. Since every copy "rewarded" through kickstarter is paid for. there is no company behind Obsidian that is looking for their money back/doubled/trippled.

No big companies are not evil, but they work for different reasons then (hopefully) Obsidian. Where Obsidian has a game they want to develop and a vision for that product, EA would give a rats ass about any vision, a slong as it makes money. Is this evil? No, but it's often hurtfull for the fans of lesser known/accasable products.

 

Every sale PoE makes is indeed a bonus, because they've been given X amount of money to make a game, and that is all they have, in return us (The producers) don't demand any money back, and no profit, all we demand is the game.

 

In theory Kickstarter is a way that companies won't have to make a large profit, as long as they manage their budgets. Because it's not kickstart once and then start making a game with the profits you made of your last product. You kickstart, make a game, when the game is done you can kickstart again, but as long as all the employees got paid, and the budget didn't go in the red, it's a success. In theory the "profit" part of the production is taken out of the equation.

 

Maybe that is an idealistic view of it, but I believe that it's at least the original idea behind it. Sure you can kickstart and make a huge success and from the profit start a company and make more products, but it's not needed, a kickstarter success only requires not going over the budget, and a delivery of the product.

[Yellow Rabbit]

You kickstart, make a game, when the game is done you can kickstart again, but as long as all the employees got paid, and the budget didn't go in the red, it's a success. In theory the "profit" part of the production is taken out of the equation.

Cannot agree with you on that one. Game development is a tricky thing from teamwork point of view. People who were heavily engaged in a project on its pre-production and early production stages have literally nothing to do with it when a project closes to an end. So they need another project to work on long before the first one is done. That, or get fired.

 

inXile, for instance, did exactly that - kickstarted Wasteland 2, then when it was half done kickstarted Torment. I don't know if anyone except Fargo could succeed in that, really.

 

Passion for making games is all very well (very, very, VERY well) but if you're running company and hope to stay in business breaking even is not enough.

[Sheikh]

Yeah but Obsidian dont have to stay in business if that is the case. I dont really give a ****.

 

The point is, Obsidian would have made this game with only 1.1m. What do they use the extra 2.9m for doesnt make any difference to me. They had an extra 2.9m to work with - kickstarter works and there is no problem. They could have considered that 2.9m as profit  and they probably did in fact.

 

So they definitely dont have to sell any copies because 2.9m was already guaranteed profit, they just decided to reeinvest that profit into eternity. But since they didnt have to do this, eternity doesnt have to sell any copies either. It was Obsidians choice and risk that they took like this and thats it.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sheikh

[Yellow Rabbit]

The point is, Obsidian would have made this game with only 1.1m. What do they use the extra 2.9m for doesnt make any difference to me. They had an extra 2.9m to work with - kickstarter works and there is no problem. They could have considered that 2.9m as profit  and they probably did in fact.

Initial goal on kickstarter was 900k iirc. And it's not enough for the game of this type and size. Neither is 4+m, for that matter, with all stretch goals Obs promised to deliver. They were likely going to invest some of their own money in this or snatch a little from other projects. And "invest" means "put money in and expect them to come back with profit", yes?

 

Anyway, what do you have against this certain devteam having a little profit from their work? They should get something in return, you know.

[kat7ra]

 

You kickstart, make a game, when the game is done you can kickstart again, but as long as all the employees got paid, and the budget didn't go in the red, it's a success. In theory the "profit" part of the production is taken out of the equation.

Cannot agree with you on that one. Game development is a tricky thing from teamwork point of view. People who were heavily engaged in a project on its pre-production and early production stages have literally nothing to do with it when a project closes to an end. So they need another project to work on long before the first one is done. That, or get fired.

 

inXile, for instance, did exactly that - kickstarted Wasteland 2, then when it was half done kickstarted Torment. I don't know if anyone except Fargo could succeed in that, really.

 

Passion for making games is all very well (very, very, VERY well) but if you're running company and hope to stay in business breaking even is not enough.

 

Yeah, I know the problems of video game developing, and it depends how many of the staff is permanent or hired for a project basis as well. Or how many have several roles instead of one specialised role.

I do want Obsidian to make money on this, and the more sales the better, but from a Kickstarter point of view it won't last if they end up making a game that is more tailored to the crowd that didn't back them, than the cowd that backed them.

Also, breaking even is in theory enough to run a company, as long as there is no debt you have to pay off, but for that to happen you need to already be an established company that can found yourself for supplies and paychecks, and when you sell what you produce you go back up to the saved amount you started with. The idea that a business have to make a profit to be viable isn't really true, it has to make a profit if it has backers that looks to get it's money back though. but if you own a shop and break even then you don' have to make a profit, as long as you cna pay for supplies and your own paycheck. but you need to have the capital to make it go full circle.