Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[BruceVC]

 

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

 

 

'TF planet do you live on...?

 

 

Don't get your point?

 

If a development company says they are including hookers in the game because they want to add to the realism of  a dark and grimy world I support that

 

But to only include female hookers is contradicting what they want to achieve.

 

NV had male and female hookers, it was realistic

 

GTA only has female hookers, you cannot argue this is a realistic view of the sex trade?

[Namutree]

 

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

 

It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored?

 

 

Yes this is my argument in essence, I'm glad you understand it

 

And I'll be honest I don't know how to respond when it comes  to those games, because you could also go a killing spree in those games. So now are we suggesting we remove hookers from all games? I agree this doesn't sound practical  because the implementation of hookers in F:NV made sense in the game world in  the city of NV.

 

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

 

The hookers in GTA were also realistic. Honestly, more so than F:NV. 

 

Also yes, the next logical step is to remove hookers in all games were you can kill them. Even that is just the beginning though. The slippery slop leads to much more than that. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

 

It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored?

 

 

Yes this is my argument in essence, I'm glad you understand it

 

And I'll be honest I don't know how to respond when it comes  to those games, because you could also go a killing spree in those games. So now are we suggesting we remove hookers from all games? I agree this doesn't sound practical  because the implementation of hookers in F:NV made sense in the game world in  the city of NV.

 

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

 

The hookers in GTA were also realistic. Honestly, more so than F:NV. 

 

Also yes, the next logical step is to remove hookers in all games were you can kill them. Even that is just the beginning though. The slippery slop leads to much more than that. 

 

 

You see this is  what is the real issue at hand, you guys think it is the beginning of a slippery slope

 

Its not and doesn't have to be, I can think of two solutions

 

• Rockstar must include male hookers to mitigate this accusation of selective representation of the sex industry in there games
• Rockstar must just remove hookers completely

If they go route two this does not mean anything else  will change, unless someone else can give me an example of what else SJW will expect to change in GTA ?

[Chilloutman]

 

 

I don't see how removing your right to vote is the same as removing hookers from the GTA game? I don't see the similarity ?

 

No the job and expectation of what a hooker does is not the same as any other low paid job, unless you have sex with your office  cleaners or with the local waitress at your local restaurant and you pay them?

 

I am surprised you are even trying to compare the types of jobs ?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Please, Bruce tell me, who will decide what is ok and what is not for game? PLEASE

 

 

Its not my suggestion, I am merely supporting article that Malc posted

 

But if you are supporting it, you must consider consequences, don't you think? It's like - I supporting Hitler because he will make Germany strong - well but you should consider that by that you will have WW2 and millions of jew killed. Consequences

Edited December 12, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Namutree]

 

 

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

 

 

'TF planet do you live on...?

 

 

Don't get your point?

 

If a development company says they are including hookers in the game because they want to add to the realism of  a dark and grimy world I support that

 

But to only include female hookers is contradicting what they want to achieve.

 

NV had male and female hookers, it was realistic

 

GTA only has female hookers, you cannot argue this is a realistic view of the sex trade?

 

GTA wasn't trying to be realistic; just dark and scummy. It actually exaggerates dark issues. That's kinda the point.

 

Also, male hookers are pretty rare compared to female hookers. If you feel that GTA is too focused on fulfilling a male fantasy only; ask them to add males hookers too. Problem solved.

 

BTW: I still hate GTA. Screw GTA; it's overrated.

[Namutree]

 

 

You see this is  what is the real issue at hand, you guys think it is the beginning of a slippery slope

 

Its not and doesn't have to be, I can think of two solutions

 

• Rockstar must include male hookers to mitigate this accusation of selective representation of the sex industry in there games
• Rockstar must just remove hookers completely

If they go route two this does not mean anything else  will change, unless someone else can give me an example of what else SJW will expect to change in GTA ?

 

Beat me to it.

[TrashMan]

• Rockstar must include male hookers to mitigate this accusation of selective representation of the sex industry in there games
• Rockstar must just remove hookers completely

If they go route two this does not mean anything else  will change, unless someone else can give me an example of what else SJW will expect to change in GTA ?

 

 

Rockstar doesn't have to do a damn thing.

It's their game.

 

Also, people looking down on sex workers are part of the problem - they make life worse for those sex workers.

[Blarghagh]

GTA is a stereotypical, exaggerated exploration of the crime world, so it stands to reason that if it's stereotypical crime (i.e. hookers and pimping) it should be included. Are male prostitutes a stereotypical part of the crime world?

[BruceVC]

GTA is a stereotypical, exaggerated exploration of the crime world, so it stands to reason that if it's stereotypical crime (i.e. hookers and pimping) it should be included. Are male prostitutes a stereotypical part of the crime world?

 

Yes male prostitutes are part of the sex industry and if a particular country has made prostitution illegal than both male and female hookers could very easily be part of organised crime

[Blarghagh]

No, that wasn't my question. I'm not asking if male prostitution is crime or if it could be part of the real life crime world. My question is are they a part of the stereotypical crime world, i.e. the R-rated action movie car chase crime world? Because in essence, that's what GTA is.

[Fighter]

Removing hookers from GTA would be very jarring. Because yes they are a stereotypical part of that kind of world and setting (also a long time part of GTA) and making the game world more sterilized by removing elements only makes it less authentic.

 

GTA is a rough setting and if you can't handle that kind of rough settings don't play it. Period.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process?

 

The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused.

 

 

This is the same spurious argument you guys keep making in the objection to my suggestion and that article

 

Its a not a question of " creative process"  because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers

 

So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game?

 

How could that possibly effect your gaming experience, it baffles me all this resistance to a reasonable suggestion. So now the onus on you is to tell me why this would fundamentally change how you play GTA?

 

All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience " 

 

And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore

 

 

You still fail to comprehend that this is a question of freedom of expression. Are you that daft? It is not about the quality of the gaming experience, how can you not see that? You are actively trying to directly or indirectly control how an artist express themselves. Please go to China with your "sensibilities" and "reasonable" censorship and see how wonderfully it works when someone tries to control you, and most importantly your thoughts, in the name of everyone else.

 

It is utterly unreasonable on every level unless you're a authoritarian. Polygon are simply completely despicable in this.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

No, that wasn't my question. I'm not asking if male prostitution is crime or if it could be part of the real life crime world. My question is are they a part of the stereotypical crime world, i.e. the R-rated action movie car chase crime world? Because in essence, that's what GTA is.

 

Yes they should be part of the stereotypical implementation of  a crime world because as I mentioned several times the sex industry consists of male and female prostitutes

 

Just because most of us  think of female prostitutes when we think of hookers, and this is the natural reaction because of our sexual orientation, a stereotypical view of the sex industry and crime world would have both male and female hookers

[Blarghagh]

Do you understand the word "stereotype"? It is not a question of what the stereotypical view should be, it is a question of what it actually is. Stereotypes do not neccesarily reflect the truth. The truth of the crime world is that the sex industry consists of men and women. The stereotype of the crime world is that women get pimped out to stand on street corners and get picked up.

 

Where I'm standing is, the "problem" seem projected to me and none of the "solutions" seem to do anything. I'd love to see more research done (because honestly some of the research was complete nonsense) but evidence suggests that this "problematic representation" of hookers (or women otherwise) in GTA does not translate back to the real world. If it doesn't translate back to the real world, there is no problem except perception. I don't even like the GTA games, I honestly could care less whether or not Rockstar put hookers in it or not, but at the end of the day I see no evidence that it harms anyone and therefore it remains their right to do so.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process?

 

The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused.

 

 

This is the same spurious argument you guys keep making in the objection to my suggestion and that article

 

Its a not a question of " creative process"  because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers

 

So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game?

 

How could that possibly effect your gaming experience, it baffles me all this resistance to a reasonable suggestion. So now the onus on you is to tell me why this would fundamentally change how you play GTA?

 

All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience " 

 

And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore

 

 

You still fail to comprehend that this is a question of freedom of expression. Are you that daft? It is not about the quality of the gaming experience, how can you not see that? You are actively trying to directly or indirectly control how an artist express themselves. Please go to China with your "sensibilities" and "reasonable" censorship and see how wonderfully it works when someone tries to control you, and most importantly your thoughts, in the name of everyone else.

 

It is utterly unreasonable on every level unless you're a authoritarian. Polygon are simply completely despicable in this.

 

 

I'm interested, because I'm obviously too stupid to  grasp the nuances of this debate, how is having female hookers only  an example of freedom of expression. What would a developer be expressing?

 

Because freedom of expression must have some sort of symbolism or point. So what exactly is the point?

[Blarghagh]

Freedom of expression must have some sort of symbolism or point? That's nonsense. Where did you pull that qualifier from? There's no "freedom" in it if you have to adhere to certain qualifiers. Even if it did, GTA is a cartoonesque, exaggeration of crime stereotypes. They are expressing and exploring the dark side of humanity by casting a light on these crimes, they are allowing their players to explore the dark side of humanity from a place of complete safety. How on earth is it pointless?

[Chilloutman]

I'm interested, because I'm obviously too stupid to  grasp the nuances of this debate, how is having female hookers only  an example of freedom of expression. What would a developer be expressing?

 

Because freedom of expression must have some sort of symbolism or point. So what exactly is the point?

No, Freedom is freedom - there are no need for point of symbolism - because its freedom. If freedom have limits its no longer freedom. (ofc in our world perfect freedom doesnt exist because we are interacting with other people so out freedom is limited to freedom of others. killing hookers in virtual word doesnt interact any way with freedom of others)

 

Edit. Ninjed by TrueNeutra

Edited December 12, 2014 by Chilloutman

[BruceVC]

Okay I'm going to leave this debate now, I can't keep repeating my  point and some of you seem to be intentionally not trying to understand what I'm trying to say

 

But its very interesting so thanks for  all the feedback, until the next debate

[Blarghagh]

To be fair, I agree with Bruce to a point - I think it would be interesting to see how people would deal with male prostitutes in GTA and they are increasingly a larger part of the crime world so it's not outlandish to add them (and it would probably remove some of the voices shouting nonsense over "bah GTA is sexist!" because for some reason people are obsessed with things seeming "fair" to their false perceptions). I also think it would be interesting to see a female lead in GTA, and I think women should be allowed to explore their dark side via the safety of cartoonish fake violence which would be easier to do for them with a female avatar. It's obvious to see why Rockstar hasn't added a female avatar, however, from the responses to, say, Bayonetta and Tomb Raider.

 

Where I often disagree with Bruce is the reasoning. GTA is a problem because it represents stereotypical victims as stereotypical victims in a way that harms nobody, and therefore it should be removed or compensated for? I struggle to see the logic.

 

Alright, since Bruce is leaving that would mean we would be arguing with ourselves, so I'm going to segue to some slightly more #GamerGate related subjects:

 

http://nichegamer.net/2014/12/adrian-chmielarz-interview-gamergate-vitriol-and-saying-enough-is-enough/

 

Fantastic interview with developer Adrian Chmielarz who worked on Painkiller, Bulletstorm and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter.

 

EDIT: Bruce, would you be inclined to respond to this interview in at least somewhat depth? I'd be interested in hearing your view.

Edited December 12, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Keyrock]

 

-snip-

 

 

I'm interested, because I'm obviously too stupid to  grasp the nuances of this debate, 

You said it, I didn't.  I would have used a different word, something along the lines of thick headed, but I'm not going to argue with you. 

 

how is having female hookers only  an example of freedom of expression. What would a developer be expressing?

 

Because freedom of expression must have some sort of symbolism or point. So what exactly is the point?

They are expressing a satirical version of a United States city.  I can only speak of my own experience and those in the United States (I was too young when I lived in Poland and West Germany to notice such things), but it applies well since every single GTA game since GTA3 (when the games went 3rd person perspective and took off) has taken place in the United States, or rather a satirical representation of a US city (Liberty City = New York, Los Santos = Los Angeles, Vice City = Miami, etc.).  I am 38 years old, I have lived in the United States for 28 years.  I've visited every single state on the east coast, a few toward the midwest, and California (mostly Los Angeles).  In my entire life I have not met or even seen a single person who I was convinced of, or even suspected to be a male prostitute.  Not one.  Not a single one.  I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of people I was convinced were female prostitutes.  Do male prostitutes exist?  I have been told they do and I do believe that, on the other hand I have never actually met one in real life.  Ever.  Not a single time.  In satire perception is reality.  So the point is that GTA shows female prostitutes and not male prostitutes because in real life people see female prostitutes but they don't see male prostitutes (or if they do it's extremely rare).

 

Edit:  For the record, I would not be opposed to seeing some male prostitutes added to the game.  It's not a big deal to me, because, as I've written, I've never seen one in real life, so not having male prostitutes in GTA is in no way jarring to me, but if they added some in, I'd be fine with that.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Keyrock

[Chilloutman]

Guys dont get sidetracked - this is not problem of hookers, male or female, killing of people, oppresing people, purple people. Does Not Matter. Problem is censorship and where cencorship leads...

[Blarghagh]

Actually, this is about ethics in game journalism.

[Chilloutman]

Actually, this is about ethics in game journalism.

Well I believe that censorship actualy is pretty amoral and unethical - so it probably fit well in that quote

[Namutree]

Guys dont get sidetracked - this is not problem of hookers, male or female, killing of people, oppresing people, purple people. Does Not Matter. Problem is censorship and where cencorship leads...

Who's being censored, and by whom?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Namutree

[Chilloutman]

 

Guys dont get sidetracked - this is not problem of hookers, male or female, killing of people, oppresing people, purple people. Does Not Matter. Problem is censorship and where cencorship leads...

Who's being censored, and by whom?

 

Noone yet - but that guy wanted Rockstar to change their product because of his opinion/political agenda - it is censorship if it goes through and Bruce promoting censoring game content on moraly questionable actions

Edited December 12, 2014 by Chilloutman