My Perspective on Pillars of Eternity

[Lillycake]

I know there's a lot of issues people are having with this game but my question is "does this game have any issues?".  There's a lot of debate going on but it is usually a stark opposite stance just a different preference.  

The types of problems that this game has in regards to bugs are known, being addressed, and getting the proper attention in the form of the game's winter 2014 delay.  In this current day and age you can't make a perfect game because *speaks in an elderly sage's voice* "Ones' garbage, is another's treasure."

 

With that said I would like to voice my opinion on people's perceived problems :

1)Fact.

2)Popular opinion.

3)Devils' advocate.

4)My opinion.

 

Melee Engagement

1)  Engagement is a new mechanic being introduced into the game that the old IE games didn't have.

2)  Most believe that it's a rule designed for turn based games and doesn't feel right.

3)  It solves issues that the old IE games had with melee and is possibly an improvement with it's usage in conjunction with abilities or special circumstances that we don't know of yet because of the narrow peak into the game via beta testing.

4)  I think it changes how combat works which may be good or bad.  It can be good if the in game scenarios lend themselves to it's strategy, but if it's something that feels out of place it's apparently something easily modded out.  Time will tell and the discussions about it are way too subjective and never really got anywhere.

 

IE vs PE Spell Casters

1)  The difference in spell variety and type with all of the different caster classes between the older IE games and PE is very big.

2)  IE spells weren't balanced and easily abused but it was a large part of the game and something very memorable/enjoyable.

3)  They broke game balance and balance is needed in games.

4)  I would prefer IE spell casting but I totally understand why others would prefer balance and this is a difficult compromise for the developers to make.  Right now they're heavily focused on balancing them which will be creating a new/different way of using magic.  That doesn't mean they "hate" spell casters like someone suggested, or even that they didn't enjoy IE spell casting themselves.  A very excellent poster on these forums that goes my the name Namutree suggested that it's because of the fact that this game has started from scratch.  I agree entirely and I have evidence of potentially making everyone (if only a little) happier.

Compare this game to Baldur's Gate.  That was level 1-7 in DnD terms, and PE is higher level but also levels a lot faster.  Both PE and BG were games that started off from the bare bones and created a game that was loved enough to justify an expansion.  BG2 improved all of the things we loved about the first because they had the foundation to build upon.  PE is in the same situation because of the development being created from scratch.  Like BG, PE has a confirmed expansion on the way and a developer recently posted that the magic system will indeed be expanded in the future.  Maybe later rather than sooner, but I think everyone can agree that they aren't slouching and are doing a wonderful job compared to most companies that we deal with.

 

Combat Experience

1)  Combat experience will not exist in PE.

2)  It's a staple of the series and will not feel right.

3)  It promotes grinding incentives that some won't enjoy, and doesn't penalize stealth game play.

4)  It's a huge change that I originally cringed when I heard about it, but based on the dedication this team has shown and the reasons they gave for making the decision keep me optimistic.  If things work out right, they're going to increase the amount of available quests and keep them in the game just enough to where you always enjoy the steady progression of leveling up.

Will it feel slightly frustrating finishing a hard fight that was avoidable without getting xp?  Of course that's the first thing you think of, but the potential for loot is something nobody can say they know about.  In the IE games loot was very predictable but in PE it's possible they changed it and the chance of getting something game changing may lurk around every corner.  If that's the case then I am sold on the idea and think it's a worth while change.

 

Game Speed

1)  Many people are voicing concerns about the game speed being too fast.

2)  It's requiring too many pauses in combat.

3)  Slow mode was created in case you didn't like it.

4)  I believe it originally was too fast but recently developers have hinted at changing the values in the future.  I have a better idea : use a slider in the options menu to adjust the speed to your preference.  It should be at least a 1-10 scale, if not more.  It's a strategy game and everyone plays different.  There's no good goldilocks speed and customization for such a major part of the game should be expected.

 

Pillars of Eternity Expansion

1)  There's an expansion coming.

2)  A lot of people are so excited for this game that they over sensationalize things and sometimes have extreme reactions to design decisions.

3)  A lot of people are holding faith in the developers and trusting they know what they're doing with the controversial subjects the forums have been discussing.

4)  I know this is probably a silly one but I'm really drunk so here we go.  I really don't see anyone talking about the expansion nearly enough and I feel like a lot of perspective is lost on the development cycle.  It's been in the works for a while now but not every minute was spent making features.  A lot of work has been done for the sake of making a game that will last forever and it's shaping up to be a lot of our dreams come true.  Once this game releases and does well (it will!) the team will begin work on the expansion that's going to be pure storyline / feature implementation.  The foundation of this project is complete and the rest of the time is going to be awesome, and we're all lucky that such a miracle has been brought to life.  I love all of you and this game and I'm really excited to follow it for years to come!

[Leferd]

Calling shenanigans on your being crazy drunk.

 

That said, I too am looking forward to the expansion.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Great sum-up, and you're not drunk, merely tight as an owl. 

[Sarex]

Did someone say owl?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Who?

Edited November 23, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Namutree]

Excellent post Lillycake!

 

Here's my perspective on poe:

 

A) Combat

 

Combat is a bit unbalanced. Movement speed is too high, it needs be reduced a bit. 20% would be good probably. Also, the enemies do too much damage per-hit. What needs to happen is that healing needs to be about 33% less effective, and standard enemies need to do 33% less damage. The troll is actually too easy; so not reducing his attack power would be a good idea. Engagement needs to be heavily improved or simply taken out of the game. It has serious problems.

 

Over-all; the combat is decent for this being a beta.

 

B) Classes

 

The classes are a different story. It seems like classes only really affect how you fight; I think that different classes need to play differently outside of combat. OE might be planning to use quests to accomplish this by making some quests class specific. An easy way to make playing as a different class more interesting is to give the player some minor talent in a story event later in the game, and having that talent be determined by your class. It may bother some people, but it would do more good than harm.

 

The lack of multi-classing is a pretty serious issue in my humble opinion. I don't feel multi-classing would be hard to implement, and would give the game a lot more variety. Especially if some classes can't be multi-classed together.

 

C) Lore & Story

 

A subject that is hard to glean from the beta, but could be very important. The game has a cool history, but I'm afraid the story may lack the emotional hook to keep players interested. I'm not saying this IS going to happen, but I feel it is a real danger. The lack of a romance option (a decision I support) means there is no easy way to get players emotionally involved in the plot. OE is going to need to be clever to ensure players care about what happens. I'm about 80% sure that this will get done right.

 

Final thoughts:

 

Poe promises to be at least a decent game, but whether it will be a good game is unknown. Once the expansion comes out though I suspect the game will be much improved. After that; we may or may not get a sequel. If we do get a poe2; it will likely be awesome.

[YunikoYokai5]

Lovely sum up and I agree with nearly everything. I mean, I'm not even sure what the disengagement issues are since I've completely lost track of it (that and PoE is my first isometric RPG. I have started BG: EE but I'm not too far into that yet). I don't really mind the game speed either, if you need to pause, pause. That's why the function is there. Yeah, you need to do it a lot but I would have been doing that anyway since I was very unfamiliar to these styles of games. 

 

Also didn't know about the expansion. Damn I need to keep track of these things!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

The lack of multi-classing is a pretty serious issue in my humble opinion. I don't feel multi-classing would be hard to implement, and would give the game a lot more variety. Especially if some classes can't be multi-classed together.

 

I agree. Not allowing multi-classing (at least for a number of class combos), seems to be a great opportunity lost. It would make for so many cool builds and strengthen the replayability of the game in a manifold of ways. I'd love to open up that aspect of character building.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

The lack of multi-classing is a pretty serious issue in my humble opinion. I don't feel multi-classing would be hard to implement, and would give the game a lot more variety. Especially if some classes can't be multi-classed together.

 

I agree. Not allowing multi-classing (at least for a number of class combos), seems to be a great opportunity lost. It would make for so many cool builds and strengthen the replayability of the game in a manifold of ways. I'd love to open up that aspect of character building.

 

If not now; then the expansion should have it at least.

[Doppelschwert]

Nice sum up, I wholeheartly agree.

 

I think the way the character system is set up multiclassing doesn't really make much sense, because if you allowed multiclassing, you might as well get rid of the classes all together and make a classless system in the first place. Multiclassing was in ADnD because the classes were to rigid in order to represent a lot of archetypes, and in DnD 3.X it mostly served to let the inner munchkin come out. Personally, I think its better to have a lot of talents that give minor versions of another classes abilities because that can be balanced easier. Apart from that, I think most archetypes can be represented in PoE already.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Perhaps PoE only should allow taking a second class after level 10 or something, so it would fit the expansion nicely?

[Namutree]

Nice sum up, I wholeheartly agree.

 

I think the way the character system is set up multiclassing doesn't really make much sense, because if you allowed multiclassing, you might as well get rid of the classes all together and make a classless system in the first place. Multiclassing was in ADnD because the classes were to rigid in order to represent a lot of archetypes, and in DnD 3.X it mostly served to let the inner munchkin come out. Personally, I think its better to have a lot of talents that give minor versions of another classes abilities because that can be balanced easier. Apart from that, I think most archetypes can be represented in PoE already.

Multi-classing still means sacrificing levels. So it's not the same as a classless system. Also, as I said not all classes should be compatible anyways.

[Namutree]

Perhaps PoE only should allow taking a second class after level 10 or something, so it would fit the expansion nicely?

No way. Multi-classing should be available at character creation. If you want to be a Fighter/Rouge; that should be usable right away. The problem is that you'll level up slower and reach the xp cap long before level 12.

[mstark]

It warms my heart to see there's still some level headedness left on these boards!

 

While I appreciate all the effort people are putting into the particular things they would like to see in the game (I know I've been one of them earlier in the dev cycle), it's good to sometimes take a step back and put things into perspective. Great write up.

 

My favourite posts/threads as of late have been those of newcomers, or those by people who have not involved themselves too deeply in niche issues. I think it's because of the different perspective they have.

[archangel979]

Melee Engagement

It is not good enough at the moment. Either let players move freely inside melee engagement range so we can at least circle the ones we fight or make the penalty for ignoring it different. We should be able to move away to heal or save our party member but not be able to easily get to back line of enemy. 

 

As I suggested earlier, best to use 4e D&D way of giving those ignoring enemy they are in melee engagement a big penalty to accuracy. It forces tactical decisions (do I want to get rid of this pesky fighter first or go for the mage but I will have much smaller chance to hit him), fighters with multiple engagement can choose their targets and not be stuck attacking first guy they engage with, and you can move away from enemy to heal without suffering a hit (accuracy penalty is not important in this case). 

Then like in 4e you can give different classes different effects when enemies ignore engagement (or you do), like paladins doing damage over time with their aura to those that ignore them. 

IE vs PE Spell Casters

Balance is OK goal, but party balance not individual class balance. This a party game and should be treated as such. If all classes do similar damage and have similar effectiveness in same situations it is nothing more but a Mass Effect 3 ending where you chose 3 different colors of same thing. 

Also, spells need to do all kinds of different effects. I don't mind martial abilities doing all kind of special effects as well as long as it makes sense. But there needs to be lots of different cool options. IE games still stand as having best magic system. 

 

Combat Experience

I will miss this, but I guess I can live without it. My last play of BG1EE with all mage party made my low level party happy each time I would take down (with lot of effort) some really tough enemy and get 1400 xp for it. It is just not the same when your only reward is a 35 gp gem. Without combat XP I got no reason to fight those and would rather skip them (it is already challenging enough to play low level without tanks).

 

Game Speed

I don't have access to beta but from live streams and youtube videos and player descriptions I surely looks like it is too fast. Hopefully next patch and by release it is made much better. And amount of damage dealt with each hit seems to as guilty as speed of movement and attacks. 

 

Pillars of Eternity Expansion

I do hope they will take any criticism after release of PoE seriously and use the expansion to make it better. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by archangel979

[archangel979]

Forgot to add.

Camera angle is so strange and worse than IE games. I really wish they changed it to be more like in IE games.

[Elerond]

Forgot to add.

Camera angle is so strange and worse than IE games. I really wish they changed it to be more like in IE games.

 

It is quite late for that, as backgrounds are prerendered and hand finished, changing camera angle in this point of time would mean that they would need to render all the maps again and redo finishing touches. I would guess that concerns about camera angle should have been expressed when we saw first demos how game will look. 

[archangel979]

OK, then I hope for PoE2 they can make it better

[Rostere]

I really, really, really do not understand complaints about the game requiring too much pausing.

 

I mean, in the BG and IWD games, I pretty much paused before giving every command in combat. How have you people been playing these games and how were you able to beat them without pausing? PE is not supposed to be about speed and reflexes.

[curryinahurry]

 

2)  Most believe that it's a rule designed for turn based games and doesn't feel right.

 

 

Nice summation, but I'll make one comment about the above point.  Most people who post about the engagement mechanic are indeed those who have problems with it, but they are far from the majority of beta participants, backers, or forum members.  There seem to be 20 or 30 die hard IE fans who want PoE to be an updated replica of the older games and bemoan any changes...that is a far cry from being the majority out of over 8000 backers who have beta access (not including those who purchased it separately).  The fact is, most backers who have no problems with the engagement mechanic, or have adopted a wait and see approach, are unlikely to post about the issue...because it's not a problem for them.

 

It's easy to forget, in the echo chamber that this particular forum has become, that the views of a vocal minority should be taken with a rather large grain of salt.

[archangel979]

I really, really, really do not understand complaints about the game requiring too much pausing.

 

I mean, in the BG and IWD games, I pretty much paused before giving every command in combat. How have you people been playing these games and how were you able to beat them without pausing? PE is not supposed to be about speed and reflexes.

In BG new commands were usually needed every 6 seconds if you were a spell caster and any non-caster usually fought same enemy until that one dies which didn't happen for few rounds (6 second = 1 round) unless they were trash mobs where you didn't even need to pause at all.

 

So you paused at worst about every 6 seconds and at best until anyone on enemy team died. Casual players didn't bother much with effective use of spellcasting and just paused to give troops new targets after current ones died so they paused even less often.

 

In PoE everything is faster and deadlier and as such asks for pausing much much more often.

 

Also from what I understand, PoE will not support AI scripts for your characters like IE games did.

Edited December 9, 2014 by archangel979

[Rostere]

 

I really, really, really do not understand complaints about the game requiring too much pausing.

 

I mean, in the BG and IWD games, I pretty much paused before giving every command in combat. How have you people been playing these games and how were you able to beat them without pausing? PE is not supposed to be about speed and reflexes.

In BG new commands were usually needed every 6 seconds if you were a spell caster and any non-caster usually fought same enemy until that one dies which didn't happen for few rounds (6 second = 1 round) unless they were trash mobs where you didn't even need to pause at all.

 

So you paused at worst about every 6 seconds and at best until anyone on enemy team died. Casual players didn't bother much with effective use of spellcasting and just paused to give troops new targets after current ones died so they paused even less often.

 

In PoE everything is faster and deadlier and as such asks for pausing much much more often.

 

Also from what I understand, PoE will not support AI scripts for your characters like IE games did.

 

 

But isn't there a "slow mode"?

[Elerond]

 

 

I really, really, really do not understand complaints about the game requiring too much pausing.

 

I mean, in the BG and IWD games, I pretty much paused before giving every command in combat. How have you people been playing these games and how were you able to beat them without pausing? PE is not supposed to be about speed and reflexes.

In BG new commands were usually needed every 6 seconds if you were a spell caster and any non-caster usually fought same enemy until that one dies which didn't happen for few rounds (6 second = 1 round) unless they were trash mobs where you didn't even need to pause at all.

 

So you paused at worst about every 6 seconds and at best until anyone on enemy team died. Casual players didn't bother much with effective use of spellcasting and just paused to give troops new targets after current ones died so they paused even less often.

 

In PoE everything is faster and deadlier and as such asks for pausing much much more often.

 

Also from what I understand, PoE will not support AI scripts for your characters like IE games did.

 

 

But isn't there a "slow mode"?

 

 

Yes there is.

 

I would say after playing couple times latest patch on hard using 'fast' mode in all the combats, that combat speed isn't problem or times you need to pause the game, but how difficult it at times to interpret what happens on the screen. Especially in spider caves it is often hard to tell who is hitting who. Also path finding in latest patch is bad especially how game interprets where characters can move. I found myself often in situation where enemies form lines to come get slaughtered big spiders especially seem to have hard time to move in the fight. But anyway my point is that it is not speed of combat that makes thing feel bad at least mainly but other factors that make combat hard to read and feeling quite clumsy.

[archangel979]

 

 

I really, really, really do not understand complaints about the game requiring too much pausing.

 

I mean, in the BG and IWD games, I pretty much paused before giving every command in combat. How have you people been playing these games and how were you able to beat them without pausing? PE is not supposed to be about speed and reflexes.

In BG new commands were usually needed every 6 seconds if you were a spell caster and any non-caster usually fought same enemy until that one dies which didn't happen for few rounds (6 second = 1 round) unless they were trash mobs where you didn't even need to pause at all.

 

So you paused at worst about every 6 seconds and at best until anyone on enemy team died. Casual players didn't bother much with effective use of spellcasting and just paused to give troops new targets after current ones died so they paused even less often.

 

In PoE everything is faster and deadlier and as such asks for pausing much much more often.

 

Also from what I understand, PoE will not support AI scripts for your characters like IE games did.

 

 

But isn't there a "slow mode"?

 

Slow mode means nothing. It slows down everything, not just how much damage is dealt.

[constantine]

@Lillycake,

 

Your idea for 'Adjustable Game Speed' is awesome ! I hope we get to see it in-game.

 

 

Overall, great post.