The culture of Rape, Bill Cosby Story

[JadedWolf]

Look Bruce, it's not about him being proud of his job. It's about his utter contempt for people who earn less than he does.

 

I find it hilarious by the way that you of all people are defending someone who has gone on record as to say that an employer should be able to pick his secretary on whether or not they are willing to have sex with him or not.

Edited November 21, 2014 by JadedWolf

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Sorry, didn't notice the edit until now. I find the idea questionable, but you're welcome to show me how that would be possible.

 

Compare the production lineman who screw the drives who makes the work worth of lets say 5000 $ monthly with Sales Director who signes contracts worth millions of $.

 

 

 

I'm sure signing contracts must be physically and intellectually demanding, and a job that absolutely can't be replicated by anyone else in your country.

 

 

 

There is a lot of work with avoiding taxes in my country. 

 

 

You mean the same taxes that cover your healthcare, retirement funds, education of your future kids, building and maintaining the roads of your country, etc.? Ah well, you're right, better skip them.

[BruceVC]

Look Bruce, it's not about him being proud of his job. It's about his utter contempt for people who earn less than he does.

 

I find it hilarious by the way that you of all people are defending someone who has gone on record as to say that an employer should be able to pick his secretary on whether or not they are willing to have sex with him or not.

 

I know about his questionable past comments  which is why I feel conflicted about almost defending him, I was hoping no one would say anything

 

All I'm suggesting  is that you may be misunderstanding him, I don't think he has contempt for people who earn less than him. He is saying he has a better life than some and he has worked hard to achieve that and he refuses to feel guilty about something that anyone can achieve with dedication and diligence ?

[Namutree]

 

There is a lot of work with avoiding taxes in my country. 

 

I don't know what's up with taxes in Poland; so I'm not trying to judge, but I would never, ever, avoid my taxes.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Yes I benefited from education, country, system and so on. But this wasn't exclusively for ME, goddammit! My employees were born in the same country in the same families etc. They could do the same. I don't claim I survived on my own like a lost cub in the jungle. We all live in societies, we had the same opportunity.

For the record I'm a son of a simple fisherman and ground school teacher from a very little (population 16.000) town. Why should I be punished for working hard when my employees were drinking beer and having a fun time, but now have no skills?

 

 

I refuse to see "earning double of what my employees earn, instead of 40+ times as much" as "being punished".

[TrashMan]

 

I am raising the issue of how as a society we seem to almost ignore allegations of rape and certain bad behaviour when it comes celebrities. And it begs the question "why "

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

So why talk about "rape culture" in this context? It is the very phrase you used, so stop being disengenius.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I am raising the issue of how as a society we seem to almost ignore allegations of rape and certain bad behaviour when it comes celebrities. And it begs the question "why "

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

So why talk about "rape culture" in this context? It is the very phrase you used, so stop being disengenius.

 

 

Well  if you have an issue with the words "rape culture" then I suggest you take it up with CNN because that's where the link is from.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

I am raising the issue of how as a society we seem to almost ignore allegations of rape and certain bad behaviour when it comes celebrities. And it begs the question "why "

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

So why talk about "rape culture" in this context? It is the very phrase you used, so stop being disengenius.

 

 

Translation: "Societal problems can only have one reason and one reason only. The very idea of society being a complex system with multiple parts that interact in producing a certain outcome is alien to me."

[TrashMan]

 

 

Look Bruce, it's not about him being proud of his job. It's about his utter contempt for people who earn less than he does.

 

I find it hilarious by the way that you of all people are defending someone who has gone on record as to say that an employer should be able to pick his secretary on whether or not they are willing to have sex with him or not.

 

Hmmmm... depending if prostitution is legal in that country and that's in the contract...that might even be legal.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Do you really think that the work of getting a contract worth of millions can be summed up to giving a signature? It's like summing being an actor to signing autographs. There is a lot to do before the signing in both cases. 

 

 

 

Well, you seemed happy enough to simplify blue-collar labor as "swinging a hammer". My point is, every job description can be simplified to the point where it seems trivial; that doesn't mean it indeed is.

 

 

 

You mean the same taxes that cover your healthcare, retirement funds, education of your future kids, building and maintaining the roads of your country, etc.? Ah well, you're right, better skip them.

 

 

Yes the health care I need to wait 3 years to get (yes we need to register a visit 3 years ahead...unless you go to a private clinic and pay), retirement fund that doesn't cover food for a month which I maybe get if I live 10 years more than the average lifespan (average lifespan in Poland 61, retirement age 67), education that sucks and is done by underpayed teachers (absolute worst education in EU), roads that are the worst in EU, worst than some Afrikan countries even. 

 

 

And you don't think the systematic tax avoidance that seems to be a favorite national pastime in eastern european countries might have something to do with that?

[TrashMan]

Translation: "Societal problems can only have one reason and one reason only. The very idea of society being a complex system with multiple parts that interact in producing a certain outcome is alien to me."

 

 

You're a bloody idiot if all you can do is deliberately put words in other peoples mouths.

Read what I said, not what you think.

Where the hell did I say that society isn't a complex system?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

You seem to lost the meaning of why we have this discussion in the first place. it was because some communist claimed there should be "redistribution of wealth" to solve all problems.

 

Except that didn't happen.

 

Proper wealth redistribution in society, related to income size, would take much of their power away.

 

Ie. the power of the rich to pervert the course of justice. Speaking of proper wealth redistribution:

 

By the way, nordic countries in general have very progressive taxation leading to wealth redistribution. You don't have to be a communist, or a socialist to know the damning effects of the concentration of capital in too few hands.

 

Nobody here was vouching for communism.

[Namutree]

 

 

I am raising the issue of how as a society we seem to almost ignore allegations of rape and certain bad behaviour when it comes celebrities. And it begs the question "why "

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

 

Wow. That's really, really messed up. What country was that?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I don't see how making only double than the manual worker would be fair giving the time and work I put in achieving my position compared to the amount of work my employee put to become where he is.

 

 

Okay, let's assume your company has 40 men working under you, plus you, earning 40 times as much as any of those laborers. Let's also assume that the laborers can live reasonably comfortably* (meaning they can cover all their needs and afford a limited amount of entertainment) from the money they get paid to. Now, if we redistribute the wealth so you only get paid double the amount of money than any of your laborers, then any of them would bring home 80/42** = 1.9 times their current earnings. Now, you'd still earn double of what they earn, making it 3.8 times the amount of money one needs to live reasonably comfortably. Is earning almost 4 times as much as one needs to in order to cover all their needs and some entertainment objectively unjust?

 

 

*I mean, we could also assume that they're living in poverty, but I'm not sure "for every man to live in comfort, 40 others need to live in poverty" reflects well on the system you're advocating for.

 

**40 workers, + you earning double.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

I am raising the issue of how as a society we seem to almost ignore allegations of rape and certain bad behaviour when it comes celebrities. And it begs the question "why "

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

Wow. That's really, really messed up. What country was that?

 

I think it was USA, the kids attorney invented a new mental disease where he is so rich he cannot understand the result of his bad actions.

 

Oh, here it is:

http://jalopnik.com/drunk-teen-kills-four-gets-no-prison-after-lawyer-blam-1484375504

 

Oh yeah! I remember that story now; wasn't he sent to a rehab for rich people or something? That was such BS. He deserved prison!

 

EDIT: Just read the story. Maybe he wouldn't think his actions didn't have consequences if you didn't let him get away with his crimes.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Namutree

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

Money gets you out of a lot of things.

 

I know rich kids who drove while drunk and killed little girls, and got out with a slap on the wrist because they had a rich daddy.

 

So why talk about "rape culture" in this context? It is the very phrase you used, so stop being disengenius.

 

 

Translation: "Societal problems can only have one reason and one reason only. The very idea of society being a complex system with multiple parts that interact in producing a certain outcome is alien to me."

 

 

You're a bloody idiot if all you can do is deliberately put words in other peoples mouths.

Read what I said, not what you think.

Where the hell did I say that society isn't a complex system?

 

 

Do you honestly fail to see why "no no no, this is all about money, stop talking about rape culture" and "society is a complex system where there are inequalities based on class, race, gender etc., and these interact in producing some really ****ed-up outcomes" are two statements that are directly opposed to each other?

[Meshugger]

As someone who has been working in the energy industry since several years, i can tell you the following:

 

- The rape culture as described by the article doesn't exist. Granted i have only travelled in civilized countries like Europe though. I have dined and partied with higher ups in multi-billion companies and nowhere have i encountered a 'culture' like they are describing in the article. Rape is always considered a barbarian and low act of cowardice. I suspect that the article have extrapolated the immature bro-dude attitude that you can see on some american teens in collage.

 

- Costs and payments are payed in bonuses for sales and management. The highest CEO do seldom earn more than in six figures per year, but with the stock options and bonuses as a carrot it rises very quickly and at the same time can be nothing the next year. Or even worse, nothing at all if they have index-based wages.

 

- The sales teams officially work 40 hour weeks, but in reality they work 80-100 with all the travels and extended meetings. One day they sell and negotiate in Quatar, the other day in Norway. They are always on the move for the next big thing; it's like a rush for them to hunt for the next sale. Many say that this is an artform in itself, eventhough the design engineers would like to strangle them for selling a product with ridicolous terms that they cannot deliver. Anyhow, these people are also payed in percentages of the contracts that they managed to land. Sometimes 1000$ per month, then nothing and finally 150k in one big swoop by the end of the year. I am surprised how these people have functioning families.

 

- Outsourcing puts a big strain on knowledge building and team expertise. The customers always chase for the lowest bidder, which means that you have to deliver the same quality of german engineering, the disciple of a japanese worker, but with the cost of mongolian desert herder. Even if you try to make the customer understand that the more expensive option of highly trained experts is the better longterm option, they still have to rely on a quarterly based budget and will chose the option that is practically designed by kazachstanian plumpers willing to live in a broom closet since that is a damn luxury compared to what they had before. Who cares if the damn thing brakes down in 5 years due to ignorance, incompentence and straight up stupidity, that's a new contract for a new company.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Okay, let's assume your company has 40 men working under you, plus you, earning 40 times as much as any of those laborers.

 

That's an idiotic assumption right at the beginning. There is much more people for a production company. You just have no idea how complex is a company.

 

 

Gee, sorry for using literally the same numbers you mentioned in your first post in my calculations.

 

 

You just don't seem to get it. I'm worth more. People don't get payed what is just they got payed what their work is worth.

 

 

So essentially you're saying an exploitative system that favors you > justice?

[Malcador]

This seems more like a potential issue with rich/famous people getting away with stuff than "rape culture", to me.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Do you honestly fail to see why "no no no, this is all about money, stop talking about rape culture" and "society is a complex system where there are inequalities based on class, race, gender etc., and these interact in producing some really ****ed-up outcomes" are two statements that are directly opposed to each other?

 

So, you vote that everything is complex, but rape and other bad stuff is because money?

 

 

I honestly have no idea where you've gotten that impression from. I paraphrased Trashman, who said "money is the root cause, this has nothing to do with rape culture", and contrasted it with my own statement of "the wonderful thing about reality is that it's a complex system with a great number of moving parts that interact in producing a certain outcome".

Edited November 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Meshugger]

This seems more like a potential issue with rich/famous people getting away with stuff than "rape culture", to me.

 

Yup. Pretty much.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

This seems more like a potential issue with rich/famous people getting away with stuff than "rape culture", to me.

 

 

 

Yup. Pretty much.

 

 

 

Why do I have the nagging feeling that neither of you have read the article in question?

Edited November 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Meshugger]

 

This seems more like a potential issue with rich/famous people getting away with stuff than "rape culture", to me.

 

 

 

Yup. Pretty much.

 

 

 

Why do I have the nagging feeling that neither of you have read the article in question?

 

 

Of course I have. Rich celebrities get even away with murder from time to time. I have still not met a guy or a group that jokes about rape, blames the victim and pat each other on the back about it. But of course i mingle with industry professionals, not the entertainment industry.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I don't know what's up with taxes in Poland; so I'm not trying to judge, but I would never, ever, avoid my taxes.

 

Perhaps he means tax minimisation. I know I'd be trying to minimise my tax as much as I can.

[TrashMan]

Wow. That's really, really messed up. What country was that?

 

My country, Croatia.

Plenty of similar cases. It usually involves a trial with minimal exposure to media, usually when there's anotehr scandal or breaking news to occupy the masses.

The sentence is a bear minimum in a minimum security prison. As soon as the media hype blows over the sentences gets quietly reduced to basically nothing for good behavior and stuff like that.

 

In other words, they guy gets out in a matter of a few months, tops.