Combat Vid - Hard with a Custom Party

[constantine]

I ve watched your vid Shevek, but I am with Sensuki there. Combat has shifted a lot from what was promised back from the start. It's, plainly put, badly executed.

 

IMO, the d100 die for attack resolution is a bad choice and maybe the root of the problem. This is MMO-like combat, and a bad one that is.

 

Engagements is terrible; although I liked the idea, it seems it was implimented very badly as well. Infinite, automatic free attacks- LOL.

 

 

The sad thing is, Obsidian is happy with their work. Fundamental changes are *not* gonna happen and all people like me can hope is for modders to take on the final game and tweak it to the point where we like (by *we* I mean backers that share a similar perspective).

 

Obsidian don't know how to work their combat and crafting a system from stratch and me thinking it would be great was far-fetched.

 

However, they are great story-tellers, and that is what we can expect for PoE to hit home. In the end, this matters more.

[Sensuki]

Well, hard and boring is the worst possible combination for a game's combat. If combat can't be made good (and while i agree with most of your posts and like your determination to improve this game, i fear Josh won't listen as is seems that most of the problems of PoE combat is by design since Josh believes they make good gameplay) i would prefer a select all->attack playstyle and play this game as a second PST

Yeah that was just a joke referring to Infinitron's stupid thread that codexers hate combat etc

[Infinitron]

lol, nostalgia filter levels in this thread are off the charts

 

Shevek has shown you that Pillars of Eternity combat looks and plays exactly like similar Infinity Engine combat did...and you're saying it sucks.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

It doesn't play like the Infinity Engine combat. I've played BG1, BG2 and IWD1 this year. Have you ?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

It doesn't play like the Infinity Engine combat.

 

I'm willing to bet that this means either:

 

1) It doesn't play like the handful of challenging set-piece battles I've cherry-picked out of the IE games.

 

or

 

2) It doesn't support my personal idiosyncratic IE game playstyle as much as I'd like it to.

 

or both!

 

(Of course, the really funny thing here is how Infinity Engine combat, which has been mocked since its inception by turn-based loving, trash mob-hating RPG grognards, has suddenly become a holy grail of design to some.)

Edited November 16, 2014 by Infinitron

[Captain Shrek]

Instead of making intangible comparisons between IE games and PoE it is simpler to argue of faults ands strengths of each. 

 

This kind of analysis does no one nay good. 

[Shevek]

Well, it plays like IE to me against trash mobs (especially for the levels we are talking about here). If anything, its a bit tougher than IE since I have to be a bit more cautious more often.

 

In BG1, for example, it was always select all attack against trash. Cheaper players do this more than I. I didnt like rest spamming but I knew folks that used to pretty much infini-haste themselves and clear everything as soon as they had access to the spell. Even without that, it wasnt hard to just auto most things to death.

 

This sort of thing can easily continue into higher levels with ludicrous archer dmg bonuses, cheap kensai builds, hp bloat, Inquisitor use, BG2's Monty Hall itemization, etc.

 

Again, I am not talking about the tough fights. I am talking about stuff leading to those encounters. So, in BG1 for example, every combat leading up to the rescue of Dynaheir, all of Nashkell mines until the end, most of the wilderness areas, etc.

 

Now, if you are talking about lack of major combat options in big fights, the offender there is the magic system not the core combat mechanics.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Shevek

[Infinitron]

lol, nostalgia filter levels in this thread are off the charts

 

Shevek has shown you that Pillars of Eternity combat looks and plays exactly like similar Infinity Engine combat did...and you're saying it sucks.

 

Actually, I'd like to amend this. There is one important difference with the IE games - those super-fast beetles, which I don't really like.

 

(Also, in the IE games I would have reloaded after my fighter dropped, but screw that.)

[Karkarov]

Well time to weigh in.  A few super annoying numbered points -

 

1: Shevek's video's prove you can make a very passive style party for dealing with trash mobs.  This isn't really "news" to me cause you can do this just fine with the BB characters already, they just weren't as good at it because they weren't "built" for it.  That's all well and good though as the point stands.

 

2: Does this revelation actually matter?  No.  Because we have been told, repeatedly, that the characters in the BB we are given start off weaker than a normal party at that point would be.  They don't have as good a gear, missing tons of items, and your own main character comes in with level 1 newbie equipment.  You don't even get 6 guys to start with.  So it is obvious that a properly geared, focused build, full party is going to be vastly stronger than 5 undergeared people with no build focus.

 

3: All of this hinges on making a customer party so again, does the point even matter?  Not to most of us.  I play games like this for the story and lore, I will be rolling around with NPC party members not custom made dudes from the adventurers hall.  My choices will be limited.  I may not get to have a Druid, cause there might not be a Druid companion.  I may not have the option of a Cipher if the ingame Cipher turns out to be a whack job and I want to play a "good guy".  I am sure guys get my point.

 

So what I am saying is we need to stop arguing over semantics and silly nonsense about how if I go full grognard I can do this or that.  Guess what?  Players who are hard core min maxer munchkin grognards were always going to steam roll this game, because they always steam roll these games.  Games like this are 100% about the mechanics and how you abuse them when it comes to challenge, not your actual player skill or talent.  So let's stop trying to judge combat based on how it plays if you do everything in the most abusive/exploitative way with your builds and abilities.  Most people won't play that way and it will be impossible to plug all the holes for those that do and you shouldn't even try to.

 

That out of the bag... that doesn't mean systems that are broken or not working in a logical way should be ignored.  IE engagement, which can't possibly be considered up to stuff right now as it is blatantly cheesy and just works poorly.  You either game it an exploit it's mechanics.... or you don't and it's existence is unimportant.  There needs to be a middle ground in there somewhere.

[Malekith]

Infinitron, on 16 Nov 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:Infinitron, on 16 Nov 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:Infinitron, on 16 Nov 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:Infinitron, on 16 Nov 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:

lol, nostalgia filter levels in this thread are off the charts

 

Shevek has shown you that Pillars of Eternity combat looks and plays exactly like similar Infinity Engine combat did...and you're saying it sucks.

In what universe Select all-> Attack is good gameplay? If it is,PST had the most exciting combat ever. And no, what made the IE combat good was the magic spells. In PoE magic is a toned down bad copycut, with all interesting spells missing.

For me BG2 > IWD > IWD2 >BG > PST as far as gameplay goes, with only BG2 having truly great combat(even better with SCS). Currently PoE sits between BG and PST, being closer to the latter. Not exactly difficult, but tedious and boring. All in my opinion of course.

All Shevek's (and Sensuki's answering one) videos show is that you can make combat irrelevant, which is a good thing in my book. Having to engage and micromanage mundane-non game changing abilities every encounter would be a nightmare.

 

Still not similar to IE combat, where the gameplay constituted of moving characters around, in and out of combat and choosing targets (engagement prevents that) pausing by going to inventory(PoE doesn't allow that), pausing to drink potions(PoE doesn't have that), and pause to use a spell or HLA. PoE allows that, in fact turns it to eleven by giving most classes active abilities instead the spellcasters only and preventing out of combat casting which was the only form of casting in IE games that you didn't pause the game for.

That makes pausing in PoE much more excesive than IE games. Not all the changes are bad (going to inventory and drinking potions are a no issue thing).

 

The thing that absolutely destroys PoE combat for me is the lack of hard counters, interesting and overwhelming spells and spell combos, and the puzzle like nature (with multiple solutions) of some encounters.

Even IWDs which didn't had so much hard counters and puzzle like battles (and as such were more boring than BG2) still had the overwhelming spell combos that could change the battle on the spot.

 

PoE spells are severly underwhelming compaired to even that, and it's by design. And don't start about overpowered mages. Nothing stoped Josh from making the mages on par with the BG2 ones, and use the soul excuse to give the other classes hard counters and supernatural abilities of equal power. Give Chanter all summoning spells and allow out of combat summons. Give chanter all the charm/stun/dominate, but increase the duration of these spells as it was in AD&D.

Give rogue invisibility/short range teleport/ shadow door/poison abilities. Make paladins magic registand like monks were in BG2. Give monks antimagic abilities like inquisitors had in BG2 etc.

You could retain class balance while still having overwhelming magic, hard counters and chess like wizard duels with move and countermove. Only now the other classes could take part in those duels as well, turning BG2 wizard duels  in PoE party duels.

 

I would consider a game with a combat system like this combined with Obsidian's writing ten times better than BG2, and BG2 is my favorite game besides PST.

It all comes to Josh Sawyer (and others) not enjoying that kind of combat and me (and others) not enjoying the kind of combat he prefers.

So yeah, from my point of view PoE combat still sucks, and will continue to do so since it's intentional.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Malekith

[Sensuki]

words

You know exactly what I'm referring to. You probably prefer stand there and do nothing combat style as well.

[Infinitron]

That out of the bag... that doesn't mean systems that are broken or not working in a logical way should be ignored.  IE engagement, which can't possibly be considered up to stuff right now as it is blatantly cheesy and just works poorly.  You either game it an exploit it's mechanics.... or you don't and it's existence is unimportant.  There needs to be a middle ground in there somewhere.

 

Re: engagement, I'll say this:

 

If Obsidian does end up removing it, it won't be because people dislike it, but because they can't get it working properly. My opinion is that in order to really do something like engagement properly, you need a character movement and animation system built to support it from the ground up.

[Guest 4ward]

well, i for one don’t like other players telling me what a cheap or smart tactic / strategy is and how i should play a game. I don’t like someone deciding for me that running around in circles (no matter how often i truly do that anyway) should not be allowed but then proceeds to pull enemies one by one. What if tomorrow Josh Sawyer wakes up and decides that that’s an ‘unfair’ tactic then proceeds to give enemies an unlimited line of sight, disables moving in shadows and teleports the entire enemy group to your party to prevent that.

[Sensuki]

Sorry guys pre-buffing is cheating apparently
 

Edited November 16, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

2: Does this revelation actually matter?  No.  Because we have been told, repeatedly, that the characters in the BB we are given start off weaker than a normal party at that point would be.  They don't have as good a gear, missing tons of items, and your own main character comes in with level 1 newbie equipment.  You don't even get 6 guys to start with.  So it is obvious that a properly geared, focused build, full party is going to be vastly stronger than 5 undergeared people with no build focus.

You would think the point wouldn't have to be made but I kept seeing posts about excessive micro on mundane encounters, so...

 

 

3: All of this hinges on making a customer party so again, does the point even matter?  Not to most of us.  I play games like this for the story and lore, I will be rolling around with NPC party members not custom made dudes from the adventurers hall.  My choices will be limited.  I may not get to have a Druid, cause there might not be a Druid companion.  I may not have the option of a Cipher if the ingame Cipher turns out to be a whack job and I want to play a "good guy".  I am sure guys get my point.

I didn't use a druid. If you make a Barb, the rest of the classes I used I think will be available as companions. I actually wanted to use a Paladin (which will be available as a companion) instead of Barb but Pally auras are broken (imagine him with zealous focus + savage attack, maybe with the one handed fencing style for more accuracy/cool looks, hehe). Also, you may not have total control over how npcs are built but you should get them in Act 1, I think. They should be in levels 1&2 (maybe 3), so you will have lots of control over how to build them up even if you can't 100% min/max the stats.

 

 

So what I am saying is we need to stop arguing over semantics and silly nonsense about how if I go full grognard I can do this or that.  Guess what?  Players who are hard core min maxer munchkin grognards were always going to steam roll this game, because they always steam roll these games.  Games like this are 100% about the mechanics and how you abuse them when it comes to challenge, not your actual player skill or talent.  So let's stop trying to judge combat based on how it plays if you do everything in the most abusive/exploitative way with your builds and abilities.  Most people won't play that way and it will be impossible to plug all the holes for those that do and you shouldn't even try to.

I don't think you have to be an experienced hardcore munchkin to make a successful PoE party. Still, the video was on Hard which is supposed to be for IE veterans (according to in game descriptions). On easy or normal, you can play that way without optimal builds.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Shevek

[Shevek]

well, i for one don’t like other players telling me what a cheap or smart tactic / strategy is and how i should play a game. I don’t like someone deciding for me that running around in circles (no matter how often i truly do that anyway) should not be allowed but then proceeds to pull enemies one by one. What if tomorrow Josh Sawyer wakes up and decides that that’s an ‘unfair’ tactic then proceeds to give enemies an unlimited line of sight, disables moving in shadows and teleports the entire enemy group to your party to prevent that.

For me, one tactic makes both gamist and simulationist sense and the other is a circus act. Still, if you want to play a game of freeze tag in the middle of combat, the IE games will always be there for you.

[Sensuki]

You would think the point wouldn't have to be made but I kept seeing posts about excessive micro on mundane encounters, so...

I'd like to see you quote these posts, because I haven't seen any. IndiraLightFoot sometimes says stuff like that but he's usually talking about having to clutch heal with the Priest due to incoming damage.

 

Still, if you want to play a game of freeze tag in the middle of combat, the IE games will always be there for you.

No, it should be the opposite. This is an IE successor, you should go play Neverwinter Nights instead of qqing about people advocating for good things that the IE games did.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

Then use the search engine.

[Sensuki]

There aren't any because you're just making it up to preserve your arguments based on non-existing statements and opinions.

[Shevek]

There aren't any because you're just making it up to preserve your arguments based on non-existing statements and opinions.

You may think that since the only words you pay attention to on these forums are your own.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree with Karkarov that debating combat skills in IE games or CRPGs in general is unnecessary and utterly futile. Also, it's not a matter of playstyle. I like Shevek's relaxed playstyle, and I also like Sensuki's more dedicated playstyle (I only based that opinion on the vids shown, of course)

 

We must be able to discuss what's wrong with the combat in the PoE BB in a more relaxed and factual manner.

 

Here's my list of things that I actually think many players having tried the BB in earnest will agree on, more or less. At least I would be surprised if these points don't hold water:

 

-Combat speed in general is too fast.

-Baddies move ridiculously fast (almost immersion-breaking)

-There is a distinct lack of animation combat feedback, especially for idle animations, recovery and disengagement attacks

-Animations are repetitive, and the same things goes for the attack sound FX palette

-Baddies tend to crowd the party, with little AI finesse and party-member selection processes

-Spell effects are often too bright

-People preferring to pause rarely will have a hard time, not only because of the speed, but also because of lacking animation feedback and the impossibility of performing varied combat action options

 

Furthermore, I have two quotes below that I reckon captures two of the worst culprits in making PoE combat un-fun and essentially rather lacklustre and messy:

 

 

Imo, "pausing" is not necessarily only tied to the mook speed (which is silly fast) but also the desynchronized rounds. With 6 party member each on their own individual "round" timers, I pause almost every second to make sure everyone is performing some action. Many times I would lose track of someone in the dogpile and they would just be standing there doing nothing, until I employed the all powerful "clog the door and autoattack to victory" strategy.

If this lack of pseudo-rounds and also lousy recovery feedback persist, combat will never be as decent as in the IE games or in the NWN/NWN2-games for that matter. It's like a heart beat. PoE BB suffers from severe cardiac arrhythmia, whereas the IE games and the NWN have a cool, steady beat to it all the way. PoE hasn't found its groove yet. 

 

 

 

The thing that absolutely destroys PoE combat for me is the lack of hard counters, interesting and overwhelming spells and spell combos, and the puzzle like nature (with multiple solutions) of some encounters.

Even IWDs which didn't had so much hard counters and puzzle like battles (and as such were more boring than BG2) still had the overwhelming spell combos that could change the battle on the spot.

 

 

 

 This may seem like a minor point, but it isn't. Magic in PoE combat, and the way spells work and what kind of spells we have, all of this is actually making each combat encounter rather boring and non-varied.

Edited November 16, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

I agree with Karkarov that debating combat skills in IE games or CRPGs in general is unnecessary and utterly futile. Also, it's not a matter of playstyle. I like Shevek's relaxed playstyle, and I also like Sensuki's more dedicated playstyle (I only based that opinion on the vids shown, of course)

I did that to prove that I don't think Hard combat is Hard, and I can play passively very easily and to explain that pausing =/= difficulty.

 

If this lack of pseudo-rounds and also lousy recovery feedback persist, combat will never be as decent as in the IE games or in the NWN/NWN2-games for that matter.

Yeah that's one of the reasons why IE combat flows much better than PE combat. I found this from my recent IWD playthrough.

 

Magic does suck in PE. It's deliberate though.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

The "desynchronized rounds" thing is a red herring. IE rounds were also desynchronized. Your party members were not synchronized dancers who slashed at enemies simultaneously in perfect unison. You're just not used to the different lengths of rounds in this game yet.
 
Re: difficulty, I'd be okay with the Medreth battle being harder, I guess. In general, NPC party battles should be the centerpieces of difficulty in this game. Josh Sawyer himself has made statements to that effect.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Infinitron

[IndiraLightfoot]

The "desynchronized rounds" thing is a red herring. IE rounds were also desynchronized. Your party members were not synchronized dancers who slashed at enemies simultaneously in perfect unison. You're just not used to the different lengths of rounds in this game yet.

 

 

That is well known, but you misunderstand. I'm talking about what happens for the player during combat, the combat feedback for the player - how tangible and usable it is - and not about what happens under the hood. Without such a "system of rounds", I can assure that the IE games and the NWN games would be almost unrecognizable. By this I mean everything, spell descriptions, durations, actions taken, bla, bla, bla.

Edited November 16, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

It's not a red herring because many combat situations, most actually, involved you pausing the game and issuing your characters commands. Many of those characters would then act at around about the same time. The characters that did need re-assigning of actions would often occur at the same time.

 

This was particularly true for BG1, IWD1 and IWD2. BG2's was a little bit more chaotic but never unmanageable (and also the most fun).