Attribute Questionnaire II

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Has anyone tried doing a direct comparison run of the same class with many drastically different attribute builds?

 

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc. 

 

I'm guessing by "weakish" you are regarding hit points? Perception is the single most important stat to the Wizard, as their spells are utterly dependent on accuracy.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent

[Captain Shrek]

 

Has anyone tried doing a direct comparison run of the same class with many drastically different attribute builds?

 

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc. 

 

I'm guessing by "weakish" you are regarding hit points? Perception is the single most important stat to the Wizard, as their spells are utterly dependent on accuracy.

 

 

 

If your wizard is getting hit, you are doing it wrong. Also, are you actually using Wizard for damaging spells? 

[Sensuki]

His point is that being able to play a Melee Wizard was advertised by the devs as a possible build. Clearly it's not, unless you're using that Spear ability that lets you attack from rank 2.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Has anyone tried doing a direct comparison run of the same class with many drastically different attribute builds?

 

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc. 

 

I'm guessing by "weakish" you are regarding hit points? Perception is the single most important stat to the Wizard, as their spells are utterly dependent on accuracy.

If your wizard is getting hit, you are doing it wrong. Also, are you actually using Wizard for damaging spells? 

 

What I was asking about was your regard of the Perception attribute. I didn't understand the meaning of your comment has to how Perception contributes to a wizard being "weakish". That's what I was inquiring about, if poorly.

[Karkarov]

His point is that being able to play a Melee Wizard was advertised by the devs as a possible build. Clearly it's not, unless you're using that Spear ability that lets you attack from rank 2.

I disagree, it is possible, just you would have been better off choosing to play a class designed around melee to begin with.  Go fig.  The real problem with it is I would focus the same stats as a melee wizard as I would as a caster wizard.  Might and Perception.  Maybe by third would be different for melee I would go Constitution but for caster I would look at Resolve.

[Sensuki]

So would I, but I think he's more referring to the casting of self-buffs in combat. Pretty much pointless. Kind of like your Rogue/DA:O example from before.

[Captain Shrek]

 

What I was asking about was your regard of the Perception attribute. I didn't understand the meaning of your comment has to how Perception contributes to a wizard being "weakish". That's what I was inquiring about, if poorly.

 

 

 

Hmm. Maybe I should have phrased that as Weaker Nuker/DPS? The wizard can not realistically contribute to the damage as much as other DPS classes, is what I wanted to say. Best to use that class as Controller. Cast slows and webs. Keep the baddies trapped while your ranged DPS (Which pretty much can outclass melee DPS any day) pet on them with guns. 

[Sensuki]

I disagree. The Wizard is quite an effective nuker because they can hit multiple enemies with a single spell. It's just that the Druid is often better at both AoE nuking and controlling.

 

In v278 I was opening with Web spells because enemies didn't react to targeting from it, but now that they do it seems faster to kill them by dropping Malignant Cloud or whatever it is - the AoE Corrode spell, which is better than Fireball and positioning the Fighter at the edge of the AoE so they're stuck inside it when targeting him <aka abusing the AI lolol>

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[Captain Shrek]

I disagree. The Wizard is quite an effective nuker because they can hit multiple enemies with a single spell. It's just that the Druid is often better at both AoE nuking and controlling.

 

In v278 I was opening with Web spells because enemies didn't react to targeting from it, but now that they do it seems faster to kill them by dropping Malignant Cloud or whatever it is - the AoE Corrode spell, which is better than Fireball and positioning the Fighter at the edge of the AoE so they're stuck inside it when targeting him <aka abusing the AI lolol>

 

You are welcome to disagree. Does not change the fact that in 'direct' damage Rogues rule. Also, the entire argument here is that Wizards can be DPS, but not as good as Rogues. Additionally, AoE spells do not require Per investment. Rather INT and RES benefit them more. 

[Sensuki]

Additionally, AoE spells do not require Per investment.

What? Are you sure you understand the rules correctly?

 

In order for an AoE to even hit (even if it 'hit's the units in it) the Attack Roll has to score a hit. More Perception means more Critical Hits from AoE spells. Rolls verses each target in the AoE are independent of one another, it's not one attack roll like in D&D. You can miss, crit, hit and graze four different targets with one AoE.

 

For non-damaging spells, Durations are more important - yes.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[Captain Shrek]

 

Additionally, AoE spells do not require Per investment.

What? Are you sure you understand the rules correctly?

 

In order for an AoE to even hit (even if it 'hit's the units in it) the Attack Roll has to score a hit. More Perception means more Critical Hits from AoE spells. Rolls verses each target in the AoE are independent of one another, it's not one attack roll like in D&D. You can miss, crit, hit and graze four different targets with one AoE.

 

For non-damaging spells, Durations are more important - yes.

 

Maybe we are talking about different things? I am talking about area control AoE like fogs, which are best kept in a place longer. Ofcourse they do more damage with more Per. but why bother? That's the job of the rogue anyway. The Wizard is there to keep enemies in constant checks. 

[Sensuki]

I was talking about the spell Noxious Burst (that's the spell I open with), it is not persistent and sickens enemies for 15 seconds by default. Every encounter I have played in the game is usually over before 10-12 seconds of in game time, so +Durations to that spell don't do anything.

 

The combat being too fast has a negative effect on +Durations and +Speed at the moment because you don't get to utilize their benefits properly over time.

[Captain Shrek]

I was talking about the spell Noxious Burst (that's the spell I open with), it is not persistent and sickens enemies for 15 seconds by default. Every encounter I have played in the game is usually over before 10-12 seconds of in game time, so +Durations to that spell don't do anything.

 

The combat being too fast has a negative effect on +Durations and +Speed at the moment because you don't get to utilize their benefits properly over time.

 

 

I see. You are not using the engagement right then. lol.

 

Just trap everyone with Fighters and then watch as your wizards lower their attack speed down to nothing. 

 

Your play style also works I guess, but I would say that you would be pausing a lot. I never need to do that. And I hate that ****, if I have to do it too often. 

[Sensuki]

I'll try that in my next video. I've been taking virtually no damage from most encounters with the tactics I've been using. It's only the OP enemies such as Menpwgra/Forest Lurkers/the Crystal Pillar spider etc that wreck me sometimes.

 

There's a whole bunch of exploits you can use.

 

Casting Withdraw on the Fighter makes him invincible as well, so you can just get him to open up with a right click, cast Withdraw on him - everyone attacks him while you smash them with ranged, and the Fighter takes no damage.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeHydra]

How's the job hunt going?

[constantine]

Reading this discussion makes it hard to believe it is about an IE-inspired game

 

Seems PoE combat/class builds is growing very MMOish. It will be fun, but definetely not the best outcome for me. I wonder if it's what the devs intented from the start.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Reading this discussion makes it hard to believe it is about an IE-inspired game

 

Seems PoE combat/class builds is growing very MMOish. It will be fun, but definetely not the best outcome for me. I wonder if it's what the devs intented from the start.

 

Agreed. When I kickstarted, I wasn't aware that Mr. Sawyer loves 4th Edition D&D (See: MMO tropes). I also wasn't aware he hated spell casting. I get a strong vibe that the game he wanted to create is Age of Decadence. I was gritting my teeth the entire kickstarter once they began rolling out classes beyond the "core four". To me, almost every mechanic and design problem is attributable to the class concepts. I still have hope that these concepts can be overcome, but the taste of MMO is impossible to ignore.

[Captain Shrek]

 

Reading this discussion makes it hard to believe it is about an IE-inspired game

 

Seems PoE combat/class builds is growing very MMOish. It will be fun, but definetely not the best outcome for me. I wonder if it's what the devs intented from the start.

 

Agreed. When I kickstarted, I wasn't aware that Mr. Sawyer loves 4th Edition D&D (See: MMO tropes). I also wasn't aware he hated spell casting. I get a strong vibe that the game he wanted to create is Age of Decadence. I was gritting my teeth the entire kickstarter once they began rolling out classes beyond the "core four". To me, almost every mechanic and design problem is attributable to the class concepts. I still have hope that these concepts can be overcome, but the taste of MMO is impossible to ignore.

 

 

 

I doubt Josh will like AoD. AoD is hard. And not hard as in clumsy. It requires dedicated builds to win and has no soft checks. There are failure states which can make your character completely feel useless forcing you to start over. Also, it is extremely judgemental. It will openly criticize you for making silly character assessments of enemy 'talkers'. 

 

And you know what?

 

It is amazing fun. Probably, no, scratch that, the best game I ever played. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

 

Reading this discussion makes it hard to believe it is about an IE-inspired game

 

Seems PoE combat/class builds is growing very MMOish. It will be fun, but definetely not the best outcome for me. I wonder if it's what the devs intented from the start.

 

Agreed. When I kickstarted, I wasn't aware that Mr. Sawyer loves 4th Edition D&D (See: MMO tropes). I also wasn't aware he hated spell casting. I get a strong vibe that the game he wanted to create is Age of Decadence. I was gritting my teeth the entire kickstarter once they began rolling out classes beyond the "core four". To me, almost every mechanic and design problem is attributable to the class concepts. I still have hope that these concepts can be overcome, but the taste of MMO is impossible to ignore.

 

 

 

I doubt Josh will like AoD. AoD is hard. And not hard as in clumsy. It requires dedicated builds to win and has no soft checks. There are failure states which can make your character completely feel useless forcing you to start over. Also, it is extremely judgemental. It will openly criticize you for making silly character assessments of enemy 'talkers'. 

 

And you know what?

 

It is amazing fun. Probably, no, scratch that, the best game I ever played. 

 

 

Truly? I've had my eye on it for some time, but have acquired, erm....cold feet towards developing products. What you say encourages me to perhaps take the chance.

[Captain Shrek]

Take that bold step my friend and enter the gates of Despair. The developers could do with some love and they really care. 

 

But take heed; that path on which you mean to set thyself is filled with many strifes. So I give thee this token of friendship: Use F5+F9 in abundance for ye shall find that is free to do so,

 

The game is damned hard to learn but amazingly rewarding. There are a lot of guides for newcomers and I must admit that reading a couple is how I became the champion of the arena. 

 

Good luck. 

[Sensuki]

Age of Decadence is going to be awesome when it comes out. Completely the opposite of Josh Sawyer design style though, and that's not a bad thing. Looking forward to it.

[Lephys]

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc.

I'm sincerely asking this, but do you mean "I tried a RES & DEX Fighter and didn't like him, and I tried a PER & DEX Wizard and didn't like him?", or do you mean that you actually took a Fighter, maxed out 2 stats, played for a bit, recorded hard data on various different things, then repeated that process with any other stat-maxing build you could think of for a Fighter, then compared the results at the end? Because that's what I'm talking about.

 

If I can ever get some free time NOT-at-work, I might give that a shot. And I'm also not talking about changing the build and trying to do the same thing, like just changing a Wizard build and trying to nuke with every single build. I'm more concerned with the capabilities of the class as a whole that may be boosted by any given stat.

 

Just for what it's worth... I'm not claiming you've done these things that I'm simply noting don't really produce productive data.

[Captain Shrek]

 

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc.

I'm sincerely asking this, but do you mean "I tried a RES & DEX Fighter and didn't like him, and I tried a PER & DEX Wizard and didn't like him?", or do you mean that you actually took a Fighter, maxed out 2 stats, played for a bit, recorded hard data on various different things, then repeated that process with any other stat-maxing build you could think of for a Fighter, then compared the results at the end? Because that's what I'm talking about.

 

If I can ever get some free time NOT-at-work, I might give that a shot. And I'm also not talking about changing the build and trying to do the same thing, like just changing a Wizard build and trying to nuke with every single build. I'm more concerned with the capabilities of the class as a whole that may be boosted by any given stat.

 

Just for what it's worth... I'm not claiming you've done these things that I'm simply noting don't really produce productive data.

 

Of course I did not record *hard data*. That would be retarded. I just played and I checked how the fighters were holding up under these stats. You asked for that, I told you what I felt. 

[YunikoYokai5]

People are probably going to yell at me for this, but here we go. 

 

I've got my Paladin currently (in 301 and then in 333 before I realised they bumped up the difficulty) at:

M: 15

C: 15

D: 8

P: 14

I: 10

R: 16

 

Mostly because in my head, a paladin should be able to take and dish out some half-decent, almost tankish which is why dex is down (in my head that is the ability to dodge attacks and hit criticals), perception mostly for conversation related stuff. I don't really understand what intellect does so I kept that at the default. Resolve I think is for conversations as well, can't remember what this does off the top of my head XD 

 

_{Please don't yell at me...}

[Karkarov]

Uhh Age of Dedadence sucks.... like a lot.  It has dozens of purely arbitrary fail states, you have to play it like a munchkin, it isn't particularly nice to look at and has no distinct art style other than "bad", the RNG is beyond insane, it isn't even remotely balanced, and I have hard finding anything called fun when I play it.  You guys are just weird.

 

That out of the way...

 

Reading this discussion makes it hard to believe it is about an IE-inspired game

Seems PoE combat/class builds is growing very MMOish. It will be fun, but definetely not the best outcome for me. I wonder if it's what the devs intented from the start.

Well the game system the IE games are based on (D&D) eventually turned into 4th Edition which is super MMOish, so it only makes sense it happened to the IE successor too right ?

Edited November 8, 2014 by Karkarov