Poll. Should the 'Invisible Combat Round' of IE Games Return ?

[Namutree]

I still can't believe that are people out there who find IE combat great...

I very rarely get angry with games. One of these rare occations was in BG2 combat.

I don't say PoE combat is perfect, but a true real-time with pause system (like DA, KOTOR etc) is 1000 times better that the IE style. It just needs a bit more work.

DA & KOTOR? Are you kidding me? They have almost no depth at all. If I want a experience as joyless and plain as those games' combat; I'd have a meal of plain wheat bread with a tall glass of room temperature tap water.

 

I find it hard to believe there are people who like the IE games, but not their combat. BG1 & BG2 were mostly combat, and IWD1/IWD2 were about 97% combat. Planescape Torment is probably the only IE game where I could understand why some one would like the game, but not the combat.

[Bill Gates' Son]

No thanks.  The round system is was the main thing I hated about IE combat (and in the NWN series).  It didn't feel fluid enough for me, especially when playing a spell caster.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Bill Gates' Son

[Sensuki]

I honestly have to question the claims that the IE combat rounds weren't fluid. I think those people's remarks might be aimed more specifically at the game FPS (30) than anything else. If anything, combat was more fluid because issuing unit actions were often made in clumps due to most actions having to be issued at specific intervals of six seconds. 

I have done a direct comparison recently and the IE game combat is more fluid and easier to control because of the more coarse granularity and unification of unit action speed. PE feels disjointed in comparison and requires more pausing.

 

When was the last time any of you played an Infinity Engine game?

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[prodigydancer]

When was the last time any of you played an Infinity Engine game?

I replayed non-EE BG this summer - and it felt just as great as back in 1999. Now I need to find time for BG2...

[Shevek]

Sensuki, repeat after me, "inspired by the IE games" does not have to mean and should not have to mean "a modern day iE game."

[Sensuki]

When did you last play an Infinity Engine game? Are you sure that your recollection of the Infinity Engine games is accurate? Have you done a side-by-side comparison to see which feels better?

[mstark]

PE ...  requires more pausing.

Only because you had to un-pause in order to sit around and wait for the next round to come around in IE.

 

I'm just entering the final stages of ToB in my BG2 play through, and while I don't have the beta to compare to, I wouldn't much mind seeing the unified rounds removed, if only because sometimes it feels like you can perform 2 actions in a row, and sometimes your units just stand there, doing nothing, for 6 full seconds. How's that for RTS-like unit responsiveness.

 

Though, given that the optimal way of playing is with 6x Boots of Speed + infinite Haste all the time, you don't much notice it.

Edited November 1, 2014 by mstark

[Sensuki]

I play the IE games at 40 FPS. I don't have to wait for anything, and it's not like nothing happens in between the time that your character performs and action and has to wait for the next one. Other units are performing actions, and you can issue move commands.

The only difference between the IE system that determines the speed of unit actions and PE's one is that in the IE games, the actions are performed at discrete intervals. 

The situation you describe "doing nothing for 6 seconds" is because units in the IE games have less activity. Once you issue units to auto-attack, you only have to do something else if the encounter calls for it. I think you are describing IE combat vs trash mobs, rather than against setpiece encounters, where you do not have to use any of your per-rest abilities.

 

In Pillars of Eternity v301, the game was pretty easy and played pretty much the same, all you had to do was make sure the Rogue Crippling Striked at the start of combat and then commanded everyone else to auto attack units. 

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

 

PE ...  requires more pausing.

 

 I don't have the beta to compare to, 

Then you do not know the chaos that is combat without it. In order to play effectively you have to pause about every two seconds since the party's actions aren't synchronized.

[Namutree]

Sensuki, repeat after me, "inspired by the IE games" does not have to mean and should not have to mean "a modern day iE game."

Just for the sake of argument let's divorce the idea that poe has any ties to the IE games. Now, with that in mind; let's discuss the chaotic mess that is the combat of poe. What are some of the major problems?

 

1: Players don't know exactly when each character is available for another action.

 

2: Players need to pause constantly to issue a command every time a character is ready for another action. The exception here are auto attackers, but most classes aren't based on auto attacking; instead they have to be manually told to use skills to be effective.

 

Here's a solution to these major problems:

 

1: Rounds- You'll know when they're available for another action; the beginning of the round.

 

2: Rounds- You'll only need to pause about every six seconds; a massive improvement.

 

Rounds make it possible to follow the combat without getting a headache. It makes the game more user friendly, and makes it play much smoother. Without rounds the combat is just going to be a grating, sloppy, and not a user-friendly mess. IE inspired game or not; poe really could use rounds.

[Shevek]

I understand your argument. You are saying that rounds would make combat less chaotic. My question, just because that solution can work, does that mean that it is the best solution? Wouldn't it be best to focus on UI changes rather than sweeping systems changes?

[Sensuki]

UI is not the problem. 

 

I'm not advocating for a rounds-change as stated in my first post in the thread, but there are definitely issues with current action speeds, and the action speed system itself.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

The problem is combat feeling chaotic. We have an understanding with that. Systems and UI are tools to meet an end. Certainly, one or the other can address the problem. Why focus on sweeping systems changes when small technical UI fixes may resolve the issue?

[Namutree]

I understand your argument. You are saying that rounds would make combat less chaotic. My question, just because that solution can work, does that mean that it is the best solution? Wouldn't it be best to focus on UI changes rather than sweeping systems changes?

The UI needs changes, and I suspect we'll be getting them. There's no way OE will keep the UI in the situation it's in now; so I've little desire to discuss it. Sensuki has already made a video on that, and nearly everyone agrees with his UI solution. 

 

The issue of rounds is less likely to be fixed, but is just as critical.

 

To be completely honest though; I'm not sure there is time to introduce rounds and rebalance the game around it. That's a depressing thought though. 

[constantine]

Maybe some (or most of you it seems) enjoy pausing in combat every half sec- or play in sloooooww-mooooo.. Maybe that s your idea for an enjoyable combat.

 

Or maybe you ll play the game or easy so that most you do in combat won t matter as much, so you don t care either way.

 

I ask those of you to watch some youtube videos of PoE combat.

 

Ma-PAUSE-ybe th-PAUSE-en you w-PAUSE-ill chan-PAUSE-ge you-PAUSE-r minds.. Phew..so hard trying to speak a single phrase during PoE Combat phase.

[Shevek]

Why are we assuming UI changes cannot effectively address issues with chaotic combat? Also, why are we assuming that rounds are the only viable systems change?

[Namutree]

Ma-PAUSE-ybe th-PAUSE-en you w-PAUSE-ill chan-PAUSE-ge you-PAUSE-r minds.. Phew..so hard trying to speak a single phrase during PoE Combat phase.

N-Pause-o-Pause-t Pause e-Pause-n-Pause-o-Pause-u-Pause-g-Pause-h Pause p-Pause-a-Pause-u-Pause-s-Pause-e-Pause-.

[Namutree]

Why are we assuming UI changes cannot effectively address issues with chaotic combat? 

Because the lack of synchronized action makes it chaotic. The best UI in the known universe can't fix that. 

 

 

Also, why are we assuming that rounds are the only viable systems change?

There are many viable changes besides rounds. We already agree that the UI needs work. 

[Shevek]

I guess I disagree that combat cannot be fixed via UI. Plenty of RTwP games exist without rounds that do not feel chaotic. I tend to see UI as how they achieve this.

[Namutree]

I guess I disagree that combat cannot be fixed via UI. Plenty of RTwP games exist without rounds that do not feel chaotic.

Which RtwP games has the following features, but no rounds?

 

A) Has a large party of six people, or more.

 

B) Isometric view.

 

C) Combat that isn't mostly automated. 

[Shevek]

Many games hit A and B. C is your largest concern. Isn't C an issue being dealt with?. Hasn't the lack of automation and the large degree of active use been communicated to and by devs? Rather than discus rounds, what about waiting to see what is done about the overabundance of active skill use and, instead, focus on the UI which all stakeholders agree is an issue?

[Sensuki]

How does UI changes fix issues with speed?

[mstark]

How does synchronized round timers fix an issue with speed? Other than forcing the player to wait for it. I agree that there's an issue with the speed of PoE combat (I've been following the beta closely), it seems more related to movement speed (enemy and pc), action speed, and damage numbers being unbalanced, rather than the game needing synchronized rounds in order to feel less chaotic.

Edited November 1, 2014 by mstark

[Shevek]

It makes speed manageable. It communicates events over time more effectively. It helps the player learn when to pause to execute actions more effectively and not haphazardly pause more often than they should. It helps then gauge ai actions and when to execute movement or action.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Shevek

[Doppelschwert]

I also think the problem lies more in getting the right feedback from the game and the actual speed instead of real time per se. If you have access to proper auto pause conditions, a way to queue up actions and better UI feedback, then the amount of pausing should be getting much better. Also, if the design goals regarding balancing are met in the way they should, you should be able to build some of your characters in a way that they require much less maintaince.

 

At least I know that I will build my non-magic characters in a way that they will only have a few important active abilities and will concentrate on passive abilities for the remaining available talents.