301 Sneak Attack Massacre

[archangel979]

Also I am blind or I didn't see any hit effects in the video. Didn't they implement something in last patch?!

[swordofthesith]

Also I am blind or I didn't see any hit effects in the video. Didn't they implement something in last patch?!

 

 I think it depends on the creature model. I never managed to gib beetles or humanoids but spiders blew apart like fireworks each time I hit them with a Sneak Attack.  

[Sensuki]

Yes they added in hit effects, gibs, new sounds etc

[archangel979]

I really didn't notice this in this video. If they are there, they need to be more noticeable. The sounds were also lacking, there was some but it never conveyed to me what was happening.

[mutonizer]

 

Rogue Sneak Attack + Reckless Assault + Crippling Strike with guns/arbalest = LAUGHS

 

Pretty much. Mutonizer had written that he was wiping out entire encounters with a 4 man rogue party armed with arbalests. I really do think Sneak Attack is due for a nerf. It is crazy OP at the moment. They need to make the conditions needed to setup a Sneak Attack a little more challenging to arrange. 

 

 

 

Issue isn't with sneak attack mechanics I think, but what's underneath, mainly a multiplicative damage modifier system with dynamic critical hit ranges combined with a static DT system applied after said multiplication and no weapon restriction per classes. DR helps a bit after that though but not enough to be a factor here, apart from being a "wee bit less one shot" at best.

 

It's not the only culprit but there is a reason you don't give big slow hitting weapons to classes like rogues usually, and that reason is to prevent extremes from happening. Sadly, you cannot turn the balancing simply around weapons either, since if you do that, you'll punish classes without the same amount of multiplicative modifiers and boosted critical hit ranges (Fighters, Barbarians, etc).

 

That leaves you with what we have currently: a very unstable combat system, with extremes on both sides, creating experiences where one player will take 5 minutes per battle, while another will wipe clean encounters in 5 seconds flat, looting included.

 

 

 

Limiting weapon use might be a good and easy (coding wise) start toward stabilization. Once you leave big hitters into the hands of linear combatants only (meaning ones that can hit reliably, but without that much damage multipliers), you can have barbarians, paladins and fighters doing a decent average with these. Then you have rogues with fast, low damage, specialized weapons, who rely on tons of multiplicative modifiers and situational factors to push their damage upward. On a normal day they'll be slightly below the linear combatants but on a good day (meaning good positioning, debuffs and whatnot), they'll be above DPS wise because things starts stacking up and for them, it's exponential growth.

That would, after some balancing, bring back two core DPS concepts: sustained and spiked.

 

Other than that, applying crit multipliers after DT reduction might also streamline damage slightly I think, but in itself won't solve the problem either. Reducing DT per damage type variance could be another step to prevent extremes maybe, not sure.

 

Making graze/critical chances fixed values based only on the d100 roll would probably also help in streamline things a bit, allowing "normal not min maxed" characters to do a somewhat decent job on average, while still granting specialized characters the ability to hit more reliably or just harder, just not critical hit. Then you add a couple of talent/class abilities here and there to give some variance to the fixed critical values (especially for classes like Rogues and Rangers who might be considered Spiked DPS), and other to reduce them (Fighers, Paladins) or even ignore them totally (Barbarian rage or something, ignoring any crits for a period of time) and you can still have a stable combat system, less punishing for the "unaware" while still interesting and not extremes yet still somewhat rewarding for the "aware".

 

But that's a lot of things...and I could be wrong on many counts.

The reality is however: Combat is extremely unstable as it is and slightly tweaking a value here and there will not solve that I fear.

[swordofthesith]

Moar Sneak Attack Massacre. 

 

 

 

[Sensuki]

I'd check your BB character's health values there man, are you sure they aren't like 700/200 like mine are lols

[swordofthesith]

I'd check your BB character's health values there man, are you sure they aren't like 700/200 like mine are lols

 

Heya Sens! Yap. They're around there now that my party hit level 7! But their endurance (stamina) pools rarely come into play. I usually just hack & slash most MOBs to mincemeat in seconds with my Greatsword swinging rogues. 

[Sensuki]

That's a bug, if you didn't realize

[swordofthesith]

That's a bug, if you didn't realize

 

I did think it was curious that my rogue was rocking around Dryford with 700 health. 

[Seari]

How can you play with that horrendous fps

[swordofthesith]

How can you play with that horrendous fps

 

Not very well. Am off to get a graphics card upgrade and some additional RAM next week. 

Edited September 29, 2014 by swordofthesith

[Fiebras]

Rogue Sneak Attack + Reckless Assault + Crippling Strike with guns/arbalest = LAUGHS

Dont forget Minor Threat.

 

You should see how it looks when a bunch of tall monsters are standing in front of your characters in an outside environment, you can't see what's going on.

 

lower camera angle = terrible idea for combat

Let me guess:

Forest Lurkers.

 

 

I want to believe her 22 Perception is doing something, like making her crit more often.

[morhilane]

 

Rogue Sneak Attack + Reckless Assault + Crippling Strike with guns/arbalest = LAUGHS

That is cool, but a archetype rogue is a melee character that backstabs.

 

While everyone is doing it with the arbalest, I made a human rogue that use a single spear and picked up Savage Attacks at level up and he was just has deadly.

 

Poking people in the face for critical damage while standing behind the tank is more fun than the ranged setup.

[illathid]

So, would this be more reasonable if the damage bonuses were additive rather than multiplicative? That way there's still a benefit for getting more damage bonuses, but they'd be lower overall.

[Sensuki]

Let me guess:

Forest Lurkers.

Yep. That is a bad position on the map for that encounter lol

[Fiebras]

I find their location rather fitting since its really tucked away. You have a chance of missing them if you arent looking.

 

Can you see model outlines/selection circles through big units like you can through walls?

[Sensuki]

Nah.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the wireframe look through walls, I prefer the shader style the IE games used.

[Matt516]

So, would this be more reasonable if the damage bonuses were additive rather than multiplicative? That way there's still a benefit for getting more damage bonuses, but they'd be lower overall.

Much more reasonable. Do we know for a fact that they're multiplicative though? Like from the code or straight from a dev's mouth? Reason I'm asking is so I can update my DPS spreadsheet properly. Also, some of the numbers I've seen in these screenshots seem a little large even for the number of multipliers at play. I suspect bugz.

 

Josh, help? How are multiple "+XX% or 1.Xx damage" boni combined? Are they all multiplicative, all additive, or a combination?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Matt516

[illathid]

 

So, would this be more reasonable if the damage bonuses were additive rather than multiplicative? That way there's still a benefit for getting more damage bonuses, but they'd be lower overall.

Much more reasonable. Do we know for a fact that they're multiplicative though? Like from the code or straight from a dev's mouth? Reason I'm asking is so I can update my DPS spreadsheet properly. Also, some of the numbers I've seen in these screenshots seem a little large even for the number of multipliers at play. I suspect bugz.

Josh, help? How are multiple "+XX% or 1.Xx damage" boni combined? Are they all multiplicative, all additive, or a combination?

Yeah, good question. I just saw earlier in the thread someone working out the calculations and I assumed they were right considering the numbers put up. Anyways, yeah knowing how all the damage modifiers interact would be nice.

[Seari]

I kind of like the current instagib sneak attack, reminds me of backstab.

[swordofthesith]

I kind of like the current instagib sneak attack, reminds me of backstab.

 

There's nothing wrong with an instagib sneak attack! Keep the damage multipliers but nerf the amount of conditions that allow for sneak attacks. Currently there are far too many conditions that allow for sneak attacks, it is too easy to spam tons of damage with a rogues. PoE is not D&D and that is fine but there was a good reason backstabs were challenging to setup .  

[AlekzanderZ]

I hope they will implant a animation when we hit a sneak attack. Like a little slash animation. I always wonder if my rogue getting some sneak attack hit.