How did you break Beta 301?

[Sensuki]

Look at the graph. Each point of Accuracy between ACC-DEF +6 and ACC-DEF +49 grants 1.33% DPS increase from converting grazes into crits. Each point of Might grants more than that per point, therefore, it is more valuable to max Might over Perception for the purposes of dealing more damage when ACC-DEF = 6 or higher.

 

The reason it gives more flat DPS after +6 is because it gives you more damage on *every* attack because no attacks will miss, whereas Perception only gives you a DPS increase on the rolls where the value would be different.

 

Disagree all you like, but the math doesn't lie.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hormalakh]

perhaps the armor maluses should be decreased? less movement/attack speed losses? 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

@swordofthesith. No point arguing. This is why I don't argue when it comes to maths.

[mutonizer]

 

Disagree all you like, but the math doesn't lie.

 

The math doesn't lie, but as I said, you're forgetting variables such as DT and graze/crit multipliers, which are applied before DT calculation, making ACC even more important.

You're also considering only a pure DPS standpoint which is exactly why MIGHT is sub par compared to PER, because it ONLY affects DPS (or heal but that's not the issue here) whereas PER helps with everything targeting hostiles, which in turn (for abilities, etc) can boost your DPS skyhigh.

 

With the mechanics as they are now, the damage potential is less important than the potential to hit/crit, as anything else will just make damage potential a non factor due to DT. As I said, the ONLY scenario where ACC stops being useful is when you reach a ACC > DEF +100 (95 or whatever your hit to crit ratio and other factors changes that value and that's applicable to all abilities/attacks targeting hostiles while damage potential stops being useful the second you can't hit/crit or are dealing with non damaging abilities.

 

All in all, if you take MIG and PER in the their own little corner, separate from everything else, you're most likely right. But once you factor in everything, PER destroys MIG on every level, for every class and ACC is king, period.

 

Edit:

Just to put things into extremes to make a point.

If you have 1000000 Might but can't bypass my fighter's DEF, he'll laugh at you all day.

If you have 1000000 Per, my fighter will die in seconds as long as the damage potential is still around his armor DT (currently, that's pretty much everything).

Edited September 29, 2014 by mutonizer

[swordofthesith]

Look at the graph. Each point of Accuracy between ACC-DEF +6 and ACC-DEF +49 grants 1.33% DPS increase from converting grazes into crits. Each point of Might grants more than that per point, therefore, it is more valuable to max Might over Perception for the purposes of dealing more damage when ACC-DEF = 6 or higher.

 

The reason it gives more flat DPS after +6 is because it gives you more damage on *every* attack because no attacks will miss, whereas Perception only gives you a DPS increase on the rolls where the value would be different.

 

Disagree all you like, but the math doesn't lie.

 

 

In a vacuum that is true but every enemy MOB in PoE does have a Deflection rating and the higher that goes Might becomes less important over Accuracy. And Accuracy is tough to raise, Perception can give an important + 10 boost to CBA to help a DPS based character reach those higher deflection values. For a DPS character I would not neglect Might but max Accuracy should be the priority. 

 

 

... Armor makes this more complicated of course, and for armored targets it may well be that Accuracy is more valuable to increase. Need to run the numbers...

 

[Sensuki]

The math doesn't lie, but as I said, you're forgetting variables such as DT and graze/crit multipliers, which are applied before DT calculation, making ACC even more important.

Graze and crit modifiers are taken into account in that graph, you can download the spreadsheet from the paper (there's a link) and check it yourself. It does not take DT into account though, correct.

 

And Accuracy is tough to raise

Tough to raise? What? You can increase it by Perception score, Weapon, Weapon style, Leveling up, talents, items and buffs ....

 

All in all, if you take MIG and PER in the their own little corner, separate from everything else, you're most likely right. But once you factor in everything, PER destroys MIG on every level, for every class and ACC is king, period.

 

Edit:

Just to put things into extremes to make a point.

If you have 1000000 Might but can't bypass my fighter's DEF, he'll laugh at you all day.

If you have 1000000 Per, my fighter will die in seconds as long as the damage potential is still around his armor DT (currently, that's pretty much everything).

Accuracy is better than Might for non-damaging spells (debuffs). I'm not convinced that after ACC-DEF = +6 that higher Accuracy is better than Might, at least not yet.

 

Your extreme example is irrelevant because we are talking about ACC-DEF +6 or higher, when Might is better on the graph and you will always graze, hit or crit. PE also has a minimum damage rule where 10% of incoming damage always gets through as well, so Might is never useless in this ACC-DEF range.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

This turned into an attribute thread.

[swordofthesith]

 

Just to put things into extremes to make a point.

If you have 1000000 Might but can't bypass my fighter's DEF, he'll laugh at you all day.

If you have 1000000 Per, my fighter will die in seconds as long as the damage potential is still around his armor DT (currently, that's pretty much everything).

Accuracy is better than Might for non-damaging spells (debuffs). I'm not convinced that after ACC-DEF = +6 that higher Accuracy is better than Might, at least not yet.

 

Your extreme example is irrelevant because we are talking about ACC-DEF +6 or higher, when Might is better on the graph and you will always graze, hit or crit. PE also has a minimum damage rule where 10% of incoming damage always gets through as well, so Might is never useless in this ACC-DEF range.

 

 

It's not extreme Sens. The scenario Mut describes plays out in some form across all P&P and CRPGs. I know you're going to reply but be a bloke and include something game breaking when it comes to 301 game play. Just to stay partially on topic with the original post. <3

 

[swordofthesith]

This turned into an attribute thread.

 

That's fine. How attributes interact with talents and combat is at the very heart of PoE's game design. Find stuff that is broken with it and you can break the game - and give opportunity for the developers to make a correction prior to release. It's all good. 

[Matt516]

 

 

The math says otherwise, I'm afraid.

That's because you're doing your math wrong, most likely forgetting variables.

Nope. I'll elaborate when I get back to my computer in a few hours.

[Sensuki]

 

 

 Oooooooooooooooookay game.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[MoonWolf]

Check your rogues stats. I think they might have the bug where they skyrocket.

[Sensuki]

Nope they're normal.

 

That was a crit (1.5x rolled damage)

 

using Reckless Assault (x 1.2 damage)

 

and Crippling Strike (x 1.25 damage)

 

LULZ

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: Did your rogue just crit for 244 in damage?

[swordofthesith]

 

 

 Oooooooooooooooookay game.

 

A hit for 244! That deserves a big+1. Sens just broke 301. Rogues all day, everyday. 

[forgottenlor]

 

I wonder to what extent Josh will go to squash OP builds. Will he keep balancing the game as soon as a new OP loophole is discovered until everything is balance - a vast equilibrium void patrolled by some never-sleeping DPS blood hounds of his?

 

Welcome to the darkside Indira. Looks like D3 had a great effect on you.

 

They have to lock the attributes in once the game is released. No more changing attributes. If they did, that would mean changing things like game manuals having to be constantly updated. Characters that you're currently playing 6 months after release now play differently because all the attributes changed? Your tank fighter is no longer a tank because you just got a Steam update. No thanks. And it'd be better for Obsidian to squash more important bugs than changing the whole system because Josh saw a Youtuber making an OP build and killing something in 5 seconds.

 

But there will always be OP builds no matter how much is changed. You can even create OP builds with S&M's system. Whatever system is implemented, it won't stop the powergamers finding ways to min-max and make OP builds. 

 

I don't think Josh cares so much about OP builds, he cares if builds suck. The question is then how characters with balanced stats play out or how high constitution/intellect/resolve characters play out. If they utterly suck, I bet the attributes will be further tweeked.

Edited September 29, 2014 by forgottenlor

[Captain Shrek]

Forgottenior.

 

WHy would you play with non-OP builds is probably beyond my comprehension, as long as all those builds give you the same story and allow you to experience all the abilities. If every class has a OP build then I would totally choose to play it like that. Doing anything else is punishing yourself. There isn't even a component of "Role playing" in playing suboptimal builds as the attributes are not really related to character traits. They are just stat modifiers.

[Sensuki]

I managed to break the combat state and found some serious pathing/navmesh issues in the Wurm/Shambling Mound locations on the Dyrford Crossing, will have to record them at some point.

[mutonizer]

Yea, my 1 paladin, 4 arbalest rogues, 1 chanter party pretty much one shotted 3-4 mobs on each engagement first second. Didn't play that group for a complete run through though and it's probably very unstable if you can't control the engagement and a bit boring (personal preferences probably)

Loved my 1 paladin, 4 fighters, 1 chanter though. Less brutal on the first second of engagement but really stable, low maintenance and still very brutal especially once you turn up the Savage Attacks.

 

That said, mobs are not balanced for the current mechanics of the game so while it's fun, I prefer testing among characters only, mixing up stats and items loadouts. Mob bashing just too cake walk for now.

Edited September 29, 2014 by mutonizer

[MoonWolf]

I managed to break the combat state and found some serious pathing/navmesh issues in the Wurm/Shambling Mound locations on the Dyrford Crossing, will have to record them at some point.

 

I did not find any near the Shambeling Mounds but the Wurm/Dragon Egg location is definitively all screwed up.

[forgottenlor]

Forgottenior.

 

WHy would you play with non-OP builds is probably beyond my comprehension, as long as all those builds give you the same story and allow you to experience all the abilities. If every class has a OP build then I would totally choose to play it like that. Doing anything else is punishing yourself. There isn't even a component of "Role playing" in playing suboptimal builds as the attributes are not really related to character traits. They are just stat modifiers.

You've missed my point. I of course would try to make a good builds, and agree that is half the fun of building characters. I'm just saying if you can't build build say a decent high intelligence, high constitution, high resolve fighter, I could see those attributes being tweeked. I don't think it's important for all characters to profit equally from all attributes, but I can see if say, raising constitution is an utterly crappy choice for all characters, that it will be improved so that you get more hit points/endurance from each point.

[Sensuki]

Hard is now really hard LOLNOT
 
The difference is *startling*
 

 

 

All Wolves and Beetles taken out for a grand total of about 1 damage taken and I haven't used a single Wizard spell either. LOLZ

[Monte Carlo]

I think I'm getting there. I made the high PER / DEX Orlan fighter someone mentioned and its making combat a lot easier. With the exceptional greatsword you get from the Skaen temple hes pretty buff but still taking more damage than I'd like.

 

I don't know if it's just me, but are the sound FX bugged for guns? Or do they all come with suppressors.

[Sensuki]

One Wind Blight just aced my entire party in the span of about 3 seconds (actually not joking) - all were between full and 75% stamina
 

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Razsius]

Nope they're normal.

 

That was a crit (1.5x rolled damage)

 

using Reckless Assault (x 1.2 damage)

 

and Crippling Strike (x 1.25 damage)

 

LULZ

 

You forgot Sneak Attack (x2 damage) Sen .

 

I think I'm getting there. I made the high PER / DEX Orlan fighter someone mentioned and its making combat a lot easier. With the exceptional greatsword you get from the Skaen temple hes pretty buff but still taking more damage than I'd like.

 

I don't know if it's just me, but are the sound FX bugged for guns? Or do they all come with suppressors.

 

Grab the exceptional estoc (probably the best weapon in the beta) from the brigand group near the dragon egg for maximum pwnage.

 

Seeing as how I find myself quoted from another thread I think I should probably explain my rational on the perception vs. might issue.  The problem with the calculation on grazes and criticals is that they are both calculated *before* armor resolves.  So a graze would look something like this with an "average" damage of 35 on a high armor target:

 

Acc:30 - Def.:25 = 5. Roll: 40 + 5 = 45 (graze). 17.5 - D.T.:15 - D.R.:20% = 2 damage

 

Whereas a critical would look like this:

 

Acc:30 - Def:25 = 5. Roll: 95 + 5 = 100 (critical). 52.5 - D.T.: 15 - D.R.:20% = 30 damage

 

If we add a single point of might to this equation then the 2 damage hit would gain a .04 damage increase and the critical hit would gain a 0.6 damage increase.  Meanwhile, a single point of perception gains a 1% increase to avoiding the graze scenario and a 1% increase to getting the critical hit scenario.  Considering the graze does 15 times less damage than the critical hit you'd have to be out of your bloody mind to think i'm going to choose the might point over the point of perception.  This is what i meant by "consistency" in that post.

 

As a side note, am I the only one completely underwhelmed by the PoE wizard's damage.  I had BB Wizard lob a fireball at a couple beetles only to watch it miss on one and graze for 26 on another.  I honestly wanted to cry at that point.  Seriously what's the point of vancian magic at this rate?  In BG, if I threw a fireball into a group at level 5 it would have a much larger AoE as well as usually killing half the group and putting the rest into critical status.

 

Anyone got an op wizard build or are they as underwhelming as I think they are?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Razsius