Capitalism & Socialism

[Namutree]

There was a bit of a debate on capitalism & socialism in the, "What you did today" thread so I decided to start a thread on it here. I feel a thread on it is more appropriate than a debate on the, "What you did today" thread. Go ahead and say whatever you want about either.

[Orogun01]

Well today I didn't do much, I just took a breather after a few days of consistent hard work (12 hours straight). Plus, my mom is still incapacitated from an operation so I've been having to take care of her and the house on top of that.

[Namutree]

Well today I didn't do much, I just took a breather after a few days of consistent hard work (12 hours straight). Plus, my mom is still incapacitated from an operation so I've been having to take care of her and the house on top of that.

Sounds hard. I know how it feels to work for so long. During the winter/spring I usually have to work like that. Lucky for me though I get to take it easy in the fall & summer. It sucks that your mom is incapacitated. I hope that she gets better.

[Bester]

Socialism is such a wide term, a real discussion could be about "communism vs. capitalism".

 

But do you even know how communism works???

 

Let me tell you how. Communism is about exploiting the masses and killing all creativity, that's how. For instance, it's that lack of creativity that led the soviets to lose the space race (first satellite in space - American, first animal and man in space - American).

First man in space would've been a European if it wasn't for the war of course. After the war the German scientists preferred to migrate to the US from their ruined country, and so naturally the US lead rocket architect/engineer was Mr. Von Braun, a German, as was most of the staff.

I'd say that unofficially it's the Europeans who won the space race. Europeans and their national capitalism. Nuff said.

 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Bester

[Namutree]

Socialism is such a wide term, a real discussion could be about "communism vs. capitalism".

 

 

Communism is basically a dead ideology so there is little point in comparing it to capitalism. Communism's mother, socialism; is alive and well. So I feel it merits more discussion. Not that I oppose discussing communism, but I doubt there will be much to say about it.

 

 

 

But do you even know how communism works???

 

Let me tell you how. Communism is about exploiting the masses and killing all creativity, that's how. 

I am in no way sympathetic to communism, but I do not believe that those were the objectives of communism. While I feel that Karl Marx was a violent and foolish man; I believe that even he would not have approved of the Soviet Union. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Bester]

 

 I feel that Karl Marx was a violent man

 

 

Yes he was. Did you know that he actually said that communism isn't going to be achieved through a smooth transition, like through workers gradually getting more and more educated because of the ever more complicated machinery and eventually realizing what's good for them, but through a swift and revolutionary justice by killing rich bourgeois, forced expropriation and political repressions?

 

He was expelled from Germany for that, among other things like sponsoring the assassinations of King of Poland and the Grand Prince of Finland. Those two fellas could do so much good (they were initiating serious reforms at the time) had it not been for the bloodthirsty Marx and his mindless minions.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Bester

[Namutree]

 

 

 I feel that Karl Marx was a violent man

 

 

Yes he was. Did you know that he actually said that communism isn't going to be achieved through a smooth transition, like through workers gradually getting more and more educated because of the ever more complicated machinery and eventually realizing what's good for them, but through a swift and revolutionary justice by killing rich bourgeois, forced expropriation and political repressions?

 

He was expelled from Germany for that, among other things like sponsoring the assassination of King of Poland and the Grand Prince of Finland. Those two fellas could do so much good (they were initiating serious reforms at the time) had it not been for the bloodthirsty Marx and his mindless minions.

 

While I don't know whether or not those claims are true; I do know that his character does not make his ideals any more true/false. To me; they are foolish and destructive, but I don't need to think of Marx as a good or evil man to feel the way I do. I know you don't like communism so let's discuss that. What aspects of communism do you oppose?

[Orogun01]

 

Well today I didn't do much, I just took a breather after a few days of consistent hard work (12 hours straight). Plus, my mom is still incapacitated from an operation so I've been having to take care of her and the house on top of that.

Sounds hard. I know how it feels to work for so long. During the winter/spring I usually have to work like that. Lucky for me though I get to take it easy in the fall & summer. It sucks that your mom is incapacitated. I hope that she gets better.

 

No, no, no you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to be remarking about the fact that I missed the point of the thread and then I say that you said that I could say anything about either.

You're a terrible straightman.

 

@Bester: you do a better job as Oby.

[Bester]

What aspects of communism do you oppose?

 

 

My main qualms with communism (not all):

 

* Racial and gender inequality. Communists regard women as weak and other races as stupid.

* Their inherent aggressiveness. I seriously condemn USSR's use of nuclear weapon they employed to annihilate entire South Korean cities. I heard the pilots were under orders and didn't know they were about to drop nukes, they ended up taking their lives.

* Right to social security, as opposed to right to work. Produces a lazy and self entitled communist generation.

* Paid education, including super expensive higher education. (a communist farmer's son from some backwoods village would never be able to become what he wants, like a doctor)

* Paid medicine. Medicine becomes a business, and then a communist person's life will depend on whether or not he can make a payment, or whether or not producing a vaccine would turn a profit.

 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Bester

[Namutree]

Becker; please actually discuss communism rather than trolling.

[BruceVC]

So as someone who lives in a country where some political parties still have the name " Communism " in there title I find this thread interesting

 

I think a hybrid socialist/capitalist political system is probably the most sustainable and reasonable. So if you take the Scandinavian countries they have excellent government controlled institutions like  healthcare and education but the economy is driven by strong independent corporations

 

If you look at the USA they are the strongest  economy in the world yet they don't have  an effective healthcare for all its citizens. If you can't pay for decent healthcare what happens? Obviously Obamacare is attempting to address this

 

But the success of the Scandinavian countries is dependant on two factors, high employment rate and relatively high tax rate that everyone contributes towards

 

In South Africa we have the government trying to deliver almost free services that include housing, education, electricity and healthcare to people that are unemployed and the tax base is put on immense pressure to pay for this because of our high unemployment rate. So the result is an abysmal successful implementation of public sector services and people like me use the private sector for healthcare and education. This makes our quality of life better than people who rely on the government for services. So we have this growing social divide between the " haves and have not's"

 

But the solution to all of this is relatively simple, a decent education will lead to people getting a decent job and they will uplift themselves without needing the government to assist them

 

So I support a mixed Socialist and Capitalist  system of government like the Scandinavians, its just not always feasible

Edited September 16, 2014 by BruceVC

[Namutree]

 

If you look at the USA they are the strongest  economy in the world yet they don't have  an effective healthcare for all its citizens. If you can't pay for decent healthcare what happens? Obviously Obamacare is attempting to address this

The USA has poor excuse of a healthcare system. I feel we would be much better off if would just decide whether or not we want a socialist system. I feel that both the capitalist model from the past has merit and flaws. I feel the universal socialist model has merit and flaws. The combination we have now is basically the flaws of both and the strengths of neither. Obamacare is a slight improvement, but just barely.

[Bester]

Becker; please actually discuss communism rather than trolling.

 

Is this how it is with you socialists? You love telling people what to do and what to say, don't you. You'd like nothing else than to put a clamp into my mouth, to impose censure on everything you dislike.

 

This is exactly why your ideology is dead and nobody likes you.

 

WBR,

Becker.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Bester

[obyknven]

Lol, this thread must be renamed into "crazy nonsence about communizm".  In other words local  posters must educate yourself firstly.

 

Classics. Bright Dawn of Humanity.

1. K. Marx - Capital. The Best explanation of capitalism, how it's system working. Handbook (surprise!) of all successful oligarchs.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

2. K. Marx - Communism manifesto. Notice in this time socialist = communist.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm

3. Lenin. The State and Revolution. Best explanation how any state working.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/

4. Lenin. Renegade Kautsky. From this time socialist's become synonym of renegade bribed by capitalists. Epic fail of western left movement cause fail of revolution in Europe. Transformation of socialists into nationalists is begin.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/

 

20-s - 30-s: Reaction, Counterrevolution, Fascism, win of capitalism. 

5.  Trotskiy. Counterrevolution in USSR, Termidor. Failing of communism in USSR, after this time using terms "communists" or "marxists" is not correct more.

http://maximumred.blogspot.ru/2013/04/thermidor.html

6. 30-s Rajani Palme Dutt. Continued transformation of socialists into fascists on the West. (Especially CHAPTER XII FASCISM AND SOCIAL REVOLUTION)

http://www.plp.org./books/Dutt.html

 

60-s New Dawn of Humanity, New-Left movements as true descendants of marxists.

7. Che Guevara - Message to the Tricontinental

https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1967/04/16.htm

8. Che Guevara Guerrilla warfare: A method

https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1963/09/guerrilla-warfare.htm

9. Ulrike Meinhof Calls for a Move from Protest to Resistance

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=895

These texts show significant difference between true communists and socialists-opportunists posers.

 

80-s - present time. New Reaction. Collapse of pseudo-left Soviet Empire, Capitalism from hidden forms of Termidor and Directory become uncovered (Coup of 18 Brumaire style) on Post-Soviet space. Developing of Post-marxism. Socialists stay pro-capitalists traitors, many of them openly join to ultra-right movements. Resurrecting of fascism and nazism as ideologies.

10. Tarasov - notable post-marxist.

Explanation about USSR

http://screen.ru/Tarasov/etatism_eng.html

Socialist are puppets of capitalists.

http://screen.ru/Tarasov/SovTradUn.htm

All Western socialists are servants of capitalists. Strategy of  struggle against class enemy.

http://screen.ru/Tarasov/revolution2.html

 

11. Subcommandante Marcos, Zapatista movement. Notable freedom fighter and writer.

http://infochangeindia.org/other/world-social-forum/seven-loose-pieces-of-the-global-jigsaw-puzzle-subcomandante-marcos.html

 

In Latin America exist big amount of true left movements, who seriously fight against oppressors, from hardcore FARK to "softcore" Chilean students. Add to this Left movements in Middle East (PKK for example), India, even in Europe true communists can be encountered (RAF yet alive), many other movements around the world. Struggle against capitalists is not ended. Even in current Ukrainian civil war presence of hardcore communists are notable. Escalated imperialistic fight between new capitalist predators (BRICS, China, Eurasia Union, Russia) and old decrepit capitalist hegemony (US,NATO, EU ) return world in pre-WW1 state and give good opportunity for post-marxists success.

 

 When such servants of capitalists as- socialists tell such coolstories

 

Communism is basically a dead ideology so there is little point in comparing it to capitalism. Communism's mother, socialism; is alive and well.

it's make me lool.

 

 

 

 

 

[Namutree]

If you think communism has a future in the world stage you are going to be disappointed. Socialism perhaps, but not the communist variant. 

Obykven: I have a bit of a hard time understanding your post.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Namutree

[Barothmuk]

Communism is basically a dead ideology so there is little point in comparing it to capitalism. Communism's mother, socialism; is alive and well.

I'd certainly say this is quite naïve or at least ignorant. There's been the 'success' of the Nepalese Maoists in 08, there's once again an increase in Naxalite activity in India, people running around with red flags in Greece and so on.

 

I do not expect these groups to "overthrow capitalism" or what have you however seeing that the "post-war boom" is long over I think its safe to predict that there will be a continued shift to the far-left and the far-right amongst large chunks of the population. We can already see it happening now in Europe.

[Namutree]

 

Communism is basically a dead ideology so there is little point in comparing it to capitalism. Communism's mother, socialism; is alive and well.

I'd certainly say this is quite naïve or at least ignorant. There's been the 'success' of the Nepalese Maoists in 08, there's once again an increase in Naxalite activity in India, people running around with red flags in Greece and so on.

 

I do not expect these groups to "overthrow capitalism" or what have you however seeing that the "post-war boom" is long over I think its safe to predict that there will be a continued shift to the far-left and the far-right amongst large chunks of the population. We can already see it happening now in Europe.

 

When I said that communism is a dead ideology; I didn't mean that there weren't still any communist parties out there. Only that they aren't major actors in the world stage anymore.

 

BTW: What would be your preferred political ideology?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Namutree

[Gorgon]

 

I'd certainly say this is quite naïve or at least ignorant. There's been the 'success' of the Nepalese Maoists in 08, there's once again an increase in Naxalite activity in India, people running around with red flags in Greece and so on.

 

I do not expect these groups to "overthrow capitalism" or what have you however seeing that the "post-war boom" is long over I think its safe to predict that there will be a continued shift to the far-left and the far-right amongst large chunks of the population. We can already see it happening now in Europe.

 

Communism was supposed to propose an alternative to Capitalism, meaning the workings of the market economy as opposed to a political ideology also commonly dubbed Capitalism. This didn't really work out. Capitalism appears more or less to be the default human organisation. Communism is as dead as insofar as it is marginalized and irrelevant as an international political movement, which was one of its key aims after all. 

[Gorgon]

Adressing the extreme wealth disparity makes sense to me, less the masses forget that money is just an imaginary thing we made up to tell poor people from rich. Socialism is just making a safer society with redistribution. Makes sense if you can afford it. 

 

Even Cesar knew the importance of keeping the plebs happy. 

[Namutree]

Capitalism is the only way to go. Socialism doesn't make sense at all. Why should I be forced to pay for some lowlife who cannot hold a simplest job? Why should I pay for someones healthcare, food, education and so on? I have me and my family to care for.

Not all socialist would let people be lazy lowlifes. The USSR often had work quota's people had to complete... or else.

[Darth InSidious]

Remember kids, your only choice is between total deregulation and Soviet command economics. There are no other options. Capitalism as it is today was like totally in use everywhere for all of history until Marxism came along.

[Namutree]

 

 

Not all socialist would let people be lazy lowlifes. The USSR often had work quota's people had to complete... or else.

Living in former soviet republic I know. Everybody worked, everybody was doing over 100% of plan yet there were empty shelfs in stores and everything was scarce. We had this saying "whether standing or laying 3000 we will earn".

 

That sounds pretty bad.

[Gorgon]

 

Capitalism is the only way to go. Socialism doesn't make sense at all. Why should I be forced to pay for some lowlife who cannot hold a simplest job? Why should I pay for someones healthcare, food, education and so on? I have me and my family to care for.

So you don't have to spend all your hard earned money buying a gun to protect you from the lowlife. Like I said it only really makes sense if you can afford it. Socialism and by inference government spending expands and contracts with the economy. I'd call it a quality of life luxury. 

[Valsuelm]

Capitalism is the only way to go. Socialism doesn't make sense at all. Why should I be forced to pay for some lowlife who cannot hold a simplest job? Why should I pay for someones healthcare, food, education and so on? I have me and my family to care for.

 

Because someone who is a communist that might or might not consider themselves a 'socialist', but more likely considers themselves 'on the left' says so. That's why! How dare you be so selfish anyways!!

 

'Socialism' makes sense in the minds of the socialist. You just need to ignore all sorts of reality, think you know better than someone else what is good for them, and/or have some kind of god complex to think this way. Or, the more popular way is to be one of Lenin's 'useful idiots'. Oh.. and whether you're a useful idiot or a true evil demigod bringing fairness and 'equality' to the masses you have to be cool with lots of government power and force so your way can be forced upon the lesser peoples who don't know better, but you do of course.

 

Socialism = Communism practiced on a national level or just communism rebranded as the word 'communism' got a bad rap in the west, and deservedly so.

 

It wasn't the USCR it was the USSR.

 

The reality is that communist ideology is alive and well. Very arguably it's never been healthier given the political state of most nations in the west, who are increasingly socialist oppressive societies, sadly and scarily. Tis a Brave New World upon us!!!

Edited September 16, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Shallow]

Government spending on military or police is not socialistic in any way. I would like to buy a gun for my own protection any way, regardless.

Quality of life improves thanks to capitalism, that's why people did and still do run from socialistic countries to capitalistic countries, not other way around, to improve their life.

In capitalism if you are willing to work hard and be smart you can afford anything. That's why most lazy and not so smart people want socialism to take care of them.

The military and the police in countries that aren't ****ed up won't arrest people preemptively with no evidence, thus they can't do jack to stop starving people from attempting to break into your home or mug you, when wealth goes down crime goes up, even if you have a police force.

Quality of life improves for the people who were born with wealth, the rest will have a much harder time getting educated, and if for whatever reason they're unable to get a job (mental illness, disease, handicap, or just a bad economy) they'll starve. Eventually due to the rich instead of the smart being the ones capable of getting a high level education there's a decent chance your technology will start falling behind. During the cold war people who liked the Soviet Union and wanted to migrate weren't allowed to by the US state, those people did exist, and nowadays plenty of people are migrating to leftie areas like Scandinavia, sure not rich people, but that's because capitalist societies benifit them immensely. That people who benifit from certain systems will prefer living under them is hardly a surprise.

That last part is pretty much 100% propaganda.

 

For the record I'm much more of a capitalist than I am a socialist, but that doesn't make the capitalist propaganda any less bs.