Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I guess you also trust strangers with vans in clown costumes, I mean they seem legit and they say they'll give you candy.(Fact:Molestation is the leading cause of childhood obesity)

I'll have you know my avatars is among the most trustworthy characters in fiction.

[Malcador]

Dump of these people's mails

 

http://pastebin.com/rQx78cSE

[Volourn]

".(Fact:Molestation is the leading cause of childhood obesity)"

 

What kind of bull**** 'fact' is this? Lack of exercise and poor eating habits are. You gots to eb trolling so grats on succeeding. (not that it's hard to troll me since I love posting :D).

[Orogun01]

Dump of these people's mails

 

http://pastebin.com/rQx78cSE

"I'd also suggest that - if others think the letter is a good idea - we should do this entirely under the radar, organizing it through word-of-mouth and email rather than Twitter. I made the mistake earlier of publicly voicing support and in doing so drawing more attention to the issue. I'd rather not make that mistake again.

— Andrew Groen, WIRED contributor"

This one is my favorite one.

[BruceVC]

Warning, this is probably the dumbest thing to be posted in this thread.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women/?wa_user1=4&wa_user2=Video+Games&wa_user3=blog&wa_user4=feature_module

 

What a crock of ****.

 

No chance, it never ceases to amaze me the types of ridiculous threads you guys will post in support of your perspective. Trust me you will post worst links than this KP, I have confidence in you

 

I'm just joking by the way and I'm  not sure why you think this article is so bad, it really covers the core issues accurately? It raises some excellent points. For example it says around point 2

 

"Even though Quinn's critics are troglodytes disguised as functional human beings, they have a point in the sense that video game journalism does has ethical problems. There's an uncomfortable relationship between advertisers, developers, and reporters, and journalists often find themselves bribed or pressured into having a certain opinion. What does this have to do with Quinn, you ask? Nothing, I'm talking about a story from 2012.

That link summarizes a number of questionable practices by gaming journalists, most of which you've probably never heard about because they don't involve an unpopular woman. No guy wants to send sexual threats to a middle-aged man, and lord knows there's no desire for nude pictures of a slightly overweight dude's flaccid **** (which is why I feel safe taking so many nude selfies)"

 

 

I understand how outraged and hurt you guys feel by how gaming journalists have treated you, you have my sympathies. But why have you guys never raised this endemic corruption before in a such a vociferous way ? Why did it take  a allegation about a women having sex with some obscure gaming journalist to galvanize you in such a way?

 

We should discuss this article in detail because I genuinely want to know what is so terrible about it?

 

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women_p2/#ixzz3Dj5N7w20

 

[Orogun01]

Edit: @Bruce: 

 

"Treated you"

 

Since when did you stop being a gamer?

Edited September 19, 2014 by Orogun01

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Since when did you stop being a gamer?

When a bunch of SJWs decided that "gamer" meant "sub-human mostly white males" instead of "someone who plays games".

 

And if you really need someone to explain to you why an op-ed that uses ED articles and anon tweets as proof is bad, you're either being obtuse or a troll.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

Edit: @Bruce: 

 

"Treated you"

 

Since when did you stop being a gamer?

 

No what idea what you mean? Can you explain further

 

Lets discuss the article, another good quote from it

 

"But for women and men who are less selfish than I am, the continued harassment of women is obviously a bigger concern than an indie gaming sex "scandal." And there's another weird logical disconnect, because the same people who harassed Quinn think they're helping women"

 

 

For me  one of my points has always been that you guys are focusing on the wrong issue, the apparent sex scandal is not as serious as the abuse that women face in the gaming industry. Honestly what is more important to you?  The fact that thousands of people felt that crude sexual insults are appropriate or the whole " sex scandal"

 

Orog read the article, you are reasonable person, I would like your input?

 

 

[BruceVC]

 

Since when did you stop being a gamer?

When a bunch of SJWs decided that "gamer" meant "sub-human mostly white males" instead of "someone who plays games".

 

And if you really need someone to explain to you why an op-ed that uses ED articles and anon tweets as proof is bad, you're either being obtuse or a troll.

 

 

Of course I am gamer, by definition a gamer is someone who plays games. That's me

 

But we aren't really talking about that now, does that article even mention the whole "gamer "  furore ? He is just saying some gamers as a way to describe basically everyone in this debate and that's the good and the bad amongst all gamers, I don't think he is playing the old " all gamers are white, male misogynists "

[Orogun01]

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The article didn't mention it, you and Orogon did. Duh.

 

The article is a hack piece that features several logical fallacies, not the least of which is using ED entries as evidence.

[Malcador]

Cracked article is usual generalization and preaching, etc. Confuses "loudest" for "average". Try that with feminists and there you see it.

 

Not really applicable to me, but whatever makes the author sleep well knowing he is Social Justice aware or whatever. Almost masturbatory these articles these days.

[Orogun01]

I've been reading the dump and it starting to seem to me that these people constantly go beyond the borders of their profession. I'd imagine that they see themselves as arbiters for a cause of righteousness but the fact is that they should not exploit their position for personal needs. At some point I would had expect hubris to run dry and people to actually consider the lengths to which they were going for this woman. I mean they have an absolute certainty that they are in the right and opposition seems to be bullied into backing down.

[BruceVC]

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

 

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding  towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

 But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

 

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must  grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

 

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

Edited September 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Delight in watching them rage and squirm from this, Walker and others labour well under the pretense that they are worth something. Also just fun to watch a war erupt online, with luck the whole indie scene blows up and several people flee the industry.

 

A section of people who fully embrace this Internet social justice nonsense like you, then slurring large numbers with sweeping generalizations is also amusing as well. Interesting that you're ok with that, but I forget the mental leaps you did to understand that a word actually meant a specific subset of what that word meant, hm.

 

For me at least it's not too much outrage over amusement and enjoying stoking a fire.

[Malcador]

I've been reading the dump and it starting to seem to me that these people constantly go beyond the borders of their profession. I'd imagine that they see themselves as arbiters for a cause of righteousness but the fact is that they should not exploit their position for personal needs. At some point I would had expect hubris to run dry and people to actually consider the lengths to which they were going for this woman. I mean they have an absolute certainty that they are in the right and opposition seems to be bullied into backing down.

A product of an entitled childhood.

 

 

 

 

(woo, finaly got to use that buzzword)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

Comprehension isn't your strong suit.

 

1. There has always been a distrust of gamnng journalists, see doritopope. The difference between doritopope and catching a journalist having a personal relationship with a developer is that there wasn't a concentrated effort by the whole of gaming press to deny corruption and silence/discredit detractors after one of those instances.

 

2. There is a difference between "I0wnZU" the anonymous douchebag making empty threats and harassing someone than game journalists using their press as a means to attack people. One is an anonymous being that you can not stop or even identify, the other is in a position of authority to ok influence and inform. Reading about what a terrible misogynist dinosaur gamers are from a gaming website is going to carry a little more weight and authority than some anon in a CoD match calling me a **** bitch and informing me that he would like to **** my fat pimply ass after he uses up my dirty whore mother.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

Delight in watching them rage and squirm from this, Walker and others labour well under the pretense that they are worth something. Also just fun to watch a war erupt online, with luck the whole indie scene blows up and several people flee the industry.

 

A section of people who fully embrace this Internet social justice nonsense like you, then slurring large numbers with sweeping generalizations is also amusing as well. Interesting that you're ok with that, but I forget the mental leaps you did to understand that a word actually meant a specific subset of what that word meant, hm.

 

For me at least it's not too much outrage over amusement and enjoying stoking a fire.

 

I appreciate your honesty, so you aren't really offended. This whole event is more a source of amusement? I can understand that, it has been entertaining. But for me I still take bigotry in the gaming industry and RL seriously. But I understand we all have different perspectives around what bigotry is and how we address it

[Orogun01]

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

 

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding  towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

 But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

 

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must  grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

 

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

 

It bothers me because I could have never imagined the extend of their influence, it bothers me because every reputable website is printing their side of the story. Even though by the own admission there was no story and only ran after they became the target. It bothers me because on the face of so much corruption there are still people nitpicking about the matter, saying that this isn't like Dorito-Gate or that this is just how things get done. It bothers me because this has actual repercussions that are clearly visible and everyone is ignoring it.

 

For me this is something from a conspiracy movie, because I've seen how most of the events went down. I've shown interest since day one and now I'm seeing how they get to write the story and keep on doing the same ****. If there was a moment to oust them and to bring some measure of dignity to the field it is now.

 

So you might say that i'm a bit more emotionally invested than usual as I consider this to be important. I'm sure you know how that's like.

[BruceVC]

 

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

Comprehension isn't your strong suit.

 

1. There has always been a distrust of gamnng journalists, see doritopope. The difference between doritopope and catching a journalist having a personal relationship with a developer is that there wasn't a concentrated effort by the whole of gaming press to deny corruption and silence/discredit detractors after one of those instances.

 

2. There is a difference between "I0wnZU" the anonymous douchebag making empty threats and harassing someone than game journalists using their press as a means to attack people. One is an anonymous being that you can not stop or even identify, the other is in a position of authority to ok influence and inform. Reading about what a terrible misogynist dinosaur gamers are from a gaming website is going to carry a little more weight and authority than some anon in a CoD match calling me a **** bitch and informing me that he would like to **** my fat pimply ass after he uses up my dirty whore mother.

 

 

Well I am trying to comprehend your perspective but as I said I am finding it inconsistent. But thanks for responding. In response

 

• That's a fallacy, no gaming journalist is saying there isn't an issue with the gaming journalist industry. Even the cracked article you posted mentions this. But once again the point is that the focus around this corruption is on Zoe Quinn and her sex life instead of the real issues, see this link from 2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

       

        There was very little said about this type of issue in the gaming industry, in fact it went under the radar without you guys giving it a second glance

 

• Okay the whole "gamers are white, male misogynists " insult from gaming journalists was  a badly conceived marketing strategy which seems to have done more harm than good in the greater cause of gender equality. I don't see it like that but I accept that you guys see it like that. Point taken

[BruceVC]

 

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

 

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding  towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

 But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

 

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must  grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

 

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

 

It bothers me because I could have never imagined the extend of their influence, it bothers me because every reputable website is printing their side of the story. Even though by the own admission there was no story and only ran after they became the target. It bothers me because on the face of so much corruption there are still people nitpicking about the matter, saying that this isn't like Dorito-Gate or that this is just how things get done. It bothers me because this has actual repercussions that are clearly visible and everyone is ignoring it.

 

For me this is something from a conspiracy movie, because I've seen how most of the events went down. I've shown interest since day one and now I'm seeing how they get to write the story and keep on doing the same ****. If there was a moment to oust them and to bring some measure of dignity to the field it is now.

 

So you might say that i'm a bit more emotionally invested than usual as I consider this to be important. I'm sure you know how that's like.

 

 

Good post, and I do understand what its like to be emotionally invested in a particular topic. That's how I feel about  almost all the topics I discuss or raise, for me its almost impossible to separate the emotion from the facts when you want to discuss something

[Orogun01]

BTW, how do actually expect them to further the cause of gender equality with the type of behavior they've shown in the past. They seem aggressive rather than argumentative, despite there being calls for a debate a la "Atheist vs Creationists". It seems to me that they have a lot of focus on content control rather than faith on the strength of their message and at times they even contradict themselves or go against their values.

I always regarded them as being ethically weak but I'm genuinely curious as to what your opinion is on what these people are doing to further gender equality.

[Malcador]

I appreciate your honesty, so you aren't really offended. This whole event is more a source of amusement? I can understand that, it has been entertaining. But for me I still take bigotry in the gaming industry and RL seriously. But I understand we all have different perspectives around what bigotry is and how we address it

Yes it is. Helpful in a way to see these people under pressure and watching them lash out, is informative to know them as people. Not seeing this as an issue with bigotry in gaming here, as this thing has blown up into a straight up fight between gaming bloggers and various groups online. Even if it's Quinn, she's disposable and just one woman (a nice target for this anyway, indie developer, claim to fame is a non-game that hipsters idolize, is very reactive to attacks) and isn't really much of rampant bigotry unless you conclude insulting one woman applies generally.

[BruceVC]

BTW, how do actually expect them to further the cause of gender equality with the type of behavior they've shown in the past. They seem aggressive rather than argumentative, despite there being calls for a debate a la "Atheist vs Creationists". It seems to me that they have a lot of focus on content control rather than faith on the strength of their message and at times they even contradict themselves or go against their values.

 

I always regarded them as being ethically weak but I'm genuinely curious as to what your opinion is on what these people are doing to further gender equality.

 

Just to be clear do you mean feminists like Anita or gaming journalists and there stand on this whole issue?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

<p>

 

 

 

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

Comprehension isn't your strong suit.

 

1. There has always been a distrust of gamnng journalists, see doritopope. The difference between doritopope and catching a journalist having a personal relationship with a developer is that there wasn't a concentrated effort by the whole of gaming press to deny corruption and silence/discredit detractors after one of those instances.

 

2. There is a difference between "I0wnZU" the anonymous douchebag making empty threats and harassing someone than game journalists using their press as a means to attack people. One is an anonymous being that you can not stop or even identify, the other is in a position of authority to ok influence and inform. Reading about what a terrible misogynist dinosaur gamers are from a gaming website is going to carry a little more weight and authority than some anon in a CoD match calling me a **** bitch and informing me that he would like to **** my fat pimply ass after he uses up my dirty whore mother.

Well I am trying to comprehend your perspective but as I said I am finding it inconsistent. But thanks for responding. In response

• That's a fallacy, no gaming journalist is saying there isn't an issue with the gaming journalist industry. Even the cracked article you posted mentions this. But once again the point is that the focus around this corruption is on Zoe Quinn and her sex life instead of the real issues, see this link from 2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

 

There was very little said about this type of issue in the gaming industry, in fact it went under the radar without you guys giving it a second glance

• Okay the whole "gamers are white, male misogynists " insult from gaming journalists was a badly conceived marketing strategy which seems to have done more harm than good in the greater cause of gender equality. I don't see it like that but I accept that you guys see it like that. Point taken

Zoe Quinn's sex life brought attention to this, but to claim that it is the central focus is wrong. People aren't trying to shame her because she cheated on her boyfriend, they're upset that a gaming journalist was having a relationship with someone who the site he worked for covered. Even if he would've never wrote an article even mentioning her, the fact that there is some relationship between a journalistic entity and a subject they are supposed to be covering creates a potential conflict of interest. The focus is not on Zoe, it is on Gaming Journalism.