The armor system needs work

[Sensuki]

The numbers may be off, as with so much in this beta, but I do not see any of the systemic issues you guys are talking about. It looks more like a solution looking for a problem to me.

Yeah, it appears to be an encounter design thing.

 

That said in the beta though, there's not much incentive to wear armor against many of these encounters as a ranged character.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

Imagine if those Wood Beetles had a Ranged attack AND a Melee attack ...

 

To force an arbitrary and nonsensical ranged attack on every creature is absolutely not the solution. Nor should all humanoids have a bow in their pockets to deal with the nudists.

 

No it's the same issue. The issue is that ranged characters are not being threatened in the encounter, therefore not having to opt-in to any of the defense systems in the game - CON (Health), RES (Concentration) and Armor (DT).

 

If that was fixed, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue with ranged characters and armor either.

 

I'm going to guess that armor probably will need to be worn against certain encounters that we haven't faced yet (Dragons for instance).

It isn't.

I pointed out that this is a topic about armor and I offered a solution specifically to make armor equally appealing to frontline combatants and the ones in the back (a solution that can't be applied to res and con).

It's just that I also like the current system of armor slowing down actions.

[Sensuki]

To force an arbitrary and nonsensical ranged attack on every creature is absolutely not the solution. Nor should all humanoids have a bow in their pockets to deal with the nudists.

That's putting words in my mouth. All I said was, imagine if the Wood Beetles had a ranged attack. My following post talked about Dragons. As Tartyanco said, there will probably be a lot of encounters where there are ranged combatants, or creatures with AoE damage spells and such.

 

It isn't.

I pointed out that this is a topic about armor and I offered a solution specifically to make armor equally appealing to frontline combatants and the ones in the back (a solution that can't be applied to res and con).

It's just that I also like the current system of armor slowing down actions.

You're not listening to me. It's not the armor system.

 

I personally think Recovery times as a whole are too long though.

 

I will admit you are right that taking away the DPS reduction would solve the issue of naked characters, but then the inverse would be true. You'd always wear the heaviest armor, due to not having to opt-in on the defensive mechanics of the game.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

Haha, it would actually be a very Sawyery move to give every enemy in the game (or at least most of them) a ranged attack of some sort, but it's probably too late to do something like that now.

 

I know some people who say that one of the key disadvantages of Black Isle's Infinity Engine games when compared to Bioware's is that the former didn't have enough effective ranged enemies. Maybe that's something that needs to be considered.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

Very true I'd say. Most of the encounters have been pretty boring High DT, high Damage melee enemies. Not exactly the most riveting combat so far.

[Monte Carlo]

Re-inventing the wheel 101, laydeez....

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

As I'm playing BG:EE right now, I still get giddy just by watching my party members trying to hit their enemies. Every encounter, every head-to-head exchange of spells and/or blows, has that nice feel. As an old PnP player, that rattling of your d20 to see if you'll hit is still magical to me. It's ingrained in me system. Am I the only one that think that this excitement factor is missing? I would even love to see fumble/critical misses be implemented properly in a CRPG.

 

I have already debated with Josh about this in a thread like over a year ago. I disliked "grazing", the always-hitting-a-little. He calmed me and others down by saying that there were a small percentage chance of missing, just as there were for crits. However, now, when we've got the game and this latest patch, there's even more swish-swooshing if the DT is too high or for whatever reason. The big problem being, I've stopped caring if I hit or not. The magic, at the moment, is gone, lost in some percentage friction mill, where you will grind down your enemy, and vice versa, every time. I don't want to get that excitement over a hit gone, especially when you attack a superior foe.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Marceror]

 

Yes, he can gain a bonus to DT, but that's still not the same thing as making heavier armors more viable for a tank character which is the problem I'm addressing here.

It is actually, in fact it's better IMO. Plate armor would now give 14 DT, which makes you a beast vs most low damage hits. -10% recovery would only give you +10% DPS at DT 0. The DT value is better than the IAS.

 

My point is, the ability that gives a temporary boost to DT has nothing to do with the attributes of the armors themselves. The fighter has the ability to increase his DT by a fixed amount whether he's nude, in light armor, or heavy armor. So I see this point as ancillary to the conversation. And further, Paladin's (the other "tank" character) don't get that ability.

 

Right now it seems that light armor of good quality is the most effective option for a tank. You can still get a huge boost to your DT, and attack much faster with it.

[Valorian]

 

To force an arbitrary and nonsensical ranged attack on every creature is absolutely not the solution. Nor should all humanoids have a bow in their pockets to deal with the nudists.

That's putting words in my mouth. All I said was, imagine if the Wood Beetles had a ranged attack. My following post talked about Dragons. As Tartyanco said, there will probably be a lot of encounters where there are ranged combatants, or creatures with AoE damage spells and such.

 

It wasn't my intention to put any words in your mouth or imply that you'd want creatures to have nonsensical ranged attacks, it was just an observation.

 

You're not listening to me. It's not the armor system.

 

I personally think Recovery times as a whole are too long though.

 

I will admit you are right that taking away the DPS reduction would solve the issue.

People who assume that (heavy) armor is less useful on characters in the back are correct. I don't see this as a huge problem (compared to some attributes being less useful for ranged combat), but it's something that can be discussed. Also, when enemies overcome your tank, armor for everyone else becomes the difference between victory and being wiped out.

 

Recovery times are absolutely not too long.

 

Of course, I'd not simply take it away without putting a deflection penalty on it.

[Sensuki]

As I'm playing BG:EE right now, I still get giddy just by watching my party members trying to hit their enemies. Every encounter, every head-to-head exchange of spells and/or blows, has that nice feel. As an old PnP player, that rattling of your d20 to see if you'll hit is still magical to me. It's ingrained in me system. Am I the only one that think that this excitement factor is missing? I would even love to see fumble/critical misses be implemented properly in a CRPG.

No I agree, I think the hit and miss mechanics of D&D are fine, it's Josh who doesn't like them. He wanted no miss at all remember.

 

Recovery times are absolutely not too long.

I think they are too long when all combined together. It's not the armor recovery penalty, it's the action penalty themselves.

 

Of course, I'd not simply take it away without putting a deflection penalty on it.

Yeah but like I said, the inverse would be true then. Ranged characters wearing heaviest armor all the time because they're rarely being challenged. When they are they'll take less damage.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

 

As I'm playing BG:EE right now, I still get giddy just by watching my party members trying to hit their enemies. Every encounter, every head-to-head exchange of spells and/or blows, has that nice feel. As an old PnP player, that rattling of your d20 to see if you'll hit is still magical to me. It's ingrained in me system. Am I the only one that think that this excitement factor is missing? I would even love to see fumble/critical misses be implemented properly in a CRPG.

No I agree, I think the hit and miss mechanics of D&D are fine, it's Josh who doesn't like them. He wanted no miss at all remember.

 

 

You seemed to enjoy the high-damage hits in your videos well enough, though. ("Oooh, 47, nice hit!")

[IndiraLightfoot]

To me, any IE-inspired successor also needs to be more than just a nod to PnP mechanics. I still mourn the loss of the dice concept in PoE. I'd love to see it as pivotal in its systems. Ditching it was really brave of them.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I can certainly see that I bring emotional aspects to the table here, but it really affects gameplay and that elusive "immersion". How much can you break with traditions and PnP mechanics of a CRPG before it becomes an ARPG or some other post-2000 game?

[Sensuki]

You seemed to enjoy the high-damage hits in your videos well enough, though. ("Oooh, 47, nice hit!")

I got excited when I got a critical with the Arbalest - 97 damage. That doesn't mean that I prefer systems where you hit all the time.

 

If anything more randomness amplifies the excitement of a good roll.

 

I'm also not saying it should be changed. It's worth giving this new system a try.

 

To me, any IE-inspired successor also needs to be more than just a nod to PnP mechanics. I still mourn the loss of the dice concept in PoE. I'd love to see it as pivotal in its systems. Ditching it was really brave of them.

There still is randomness, it's just probably rare that you'll miss or be missed in the beta. Not sure about the actual game.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shadenuat]

Robe with DR4 and +15% speed&Superfine Leather armor with DR10 and -20% speed, or plate mail with DR12 that halves your speed and all actions.

whichisbetterandwhydiscuss

 

hint: light/no armor +priest buffs for win imo.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Shadenuat

[Marceror]

Robe with DR4 and +15% speed&Superfine Leather armor with DR10 and -20% speed, or plate mail with DR12 that halves your speed and all actions.

whichisbetterandwhydiscuss

 

hint: light/no armor +priest buffs for win imo.

Yep!

[Valorian]

 

Recovery times are absolutely not too long.

I think they are too long when all combined together. It's not the armor recovery penalty, it's the action penalty themselves.

 

Of course, I'd not simply take it away without putting a deflection penalty on it.

Yeah but like I said, the inverse would be true then. Ranged characters wearing heaviest armor all the time because they're rarely being challenged. When they are they'll take less damage.

 

 

1) I disagree that they're too long when combined.

 

2) That's not true. When attacked, they'd also suffer from the deflection penalty, remember? It would be the same consideration for both melee and ranged combatants (do I want to sacrifice some deflection for some DT?). I'll repeat that I'm also fine with the current armor system.

[Sensuki]

So? It would still be better against all attacks that don't ignore armor. A lot of spells and abilities target Fortitude, Reflex and Will and deal damage that takes DT into account.

Would also kind of be ironic that armor reduces deflection and shields increase it 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Funny thing is: Feargus, Josh and MCA never miss an opportunity to declare their love for the IE games, and I wouldn't expect anything else. But it's clear that they all have their own ideas of what's the core of those classics.

 

Right now, if we pretend, you only could save a few core game aspects of the BG-series (disregarding the story) what would it be?

I'd go for the dice-based combat system, party-based companions/self-made party members, and the character/classes levelling/development system via xp.

 

OE right now didn't save two of them. They left them to their fate. Instead, they picked crafting (from NWN2, really) and the stronghold (yet again, from NWN2).

[Valorian]

So? It would still be better against all attacks that don't ignore armor. A lot of spells and abilities target Fortitude, Reflex and Will and deal damage that takes DT into account.

 

Would also kind of be ironic that armor reduces deflection and shields increase it 

 

Then let's go gamist and decrease all defenses when wearing armor! 

If you don't mind might affecting all sources of damage and dexterity all types of attacks... I don't see the issue. 

[Monte Carlo]

To me, any IE-inspired successor also needs to be more than just a nod to PnP mechanics. I still mourn the loss of the dice concept in PoE. I'd love to see it as pivotal in its systems. Ditching it was really brave hubristic and ultimately disastrous.

 

Fixed.

 

This system meets some esoteric design philosophy I obviously don't understand... but pleases any number of beard-stroking geniuses out there in DesignLand, a mystical place where the design goals are met by squeezing every last iota of fun from something.

 

Or as we say where I work, "you're hitting the target but missing the point."

 

Edit - stuff.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Monte Carlo

[Sarex]

and the stronghold (yet again, from NWN2).

 

But, but, but I like the stronghold.

[Marceror]

Funny thing is: Feargus, Josh and MCA never miss an opportunity to declare their love for the IE games, and I wouldn't expect anything else. But it's clear that they all have their own ideas of what's the core of those classics.

 

Right now, if we pretend, you only could save a few core game aspects of the BG-series (disregarding the story) what would it be?

I'd go for the dice-based combat system, party-based companions/self-made party members, and the character/classes levelling/development system via xp.

 

OE right now didn't save two of them. They left them to their fate. Instead, they picked crafting (from NWN2, really) and the stronghold (yet again, from NWN2).

As developers I'm sure their perspectives on those games are very different than ours as players. They probably look back and say, man, if only I could have done IWD2 this way. Kickstarter comes along and... wait a tick! Hey fans, we've got this Kickstarter and we're going back to the IE games! Yay! (inner thought monologue: and I'm going to build it the way I wish I had 15 years ago!)

 

As nostalgic fans, we pretty much want what we had 15 years ago, wrapped in a package that's appropriate for 2014. At least, I do.

 

...but I digress....

[Uomoz]

And even Monte Carlo goes right into the ignore list. As a general suggestion, if you want your opinion to be heard, use constructive criticism instead of doomsaying.

[Arhiippa]

Very true I'd say. Most of the encounters have been pretty boring High DT, high Damage melee enemies. Not exactly the most riveting combat so far.

 

This. Not only is the balancing work very much unfinished, but the encounter design within the beta content is unlikely to be very representative of the whole game. While one can get a feel for the system from the beta, the limited scope of the encounters doesn't really give a broad enough picture of the tactical possibilities to make definitive judgments about the merits of different armors. Hard to be sure, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the armor system that isn't fixable with better balancing and more varied encounter design.