Josh Sawyer visually explains Attack & Recovery

[mutonizer]

Good points Gromnir, but usually video games offset this by making enchantments on 2hd, be scaled up version of their equivalent on 1hd (as in, +5ACC buff on a 1hd, becomes +10ACC for example).

 

Edit:

No idea if this is the case in PoE though! Don't think I ever saw any videos of anyone doing actual enchaments, only briefly showing the menu or something but can't find it now.

Edited September 2, 2014 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

This is very helpful for my next suggestion thread.

[mutonizer]

This is very helpful for my next suggestion thread.

 

Already links with your very good UI/tooltip suggestions though: All this **** needs to be 100% crystal clear in game 100% of the time no matter what you do. I mean, if we are to make any relevant decision in the game with items and character builds and whatnot, it all need to be 100% transparent, with a good UI to back it up.

Hopefully they get that sorted REALLY fast as I think it would help a lot you guys to give proper feedback for the balancing stage.

[Zansatsu]

 

 

am suspecting the damage from 2 attacks with the 2h will be greater than 2 attacks with 2 medium weapons.

 

however, please realize this is a mechanic for a game with magical weapons. each equipable slot allows for additional magical buffing.  a theoretical general accuracy improvement conferred by a weapon could conceivable stack with a 2-weapon load out.  2 weapons that each grant a stat buff. 2 weapons that... etc. regardless o' damages, dual wield has almost always become a better approach at high levels as magic weapons allowed stacking o' benefits. 

 

a mechanic that recognizes the inherent superiority o' 2 equipable slots in a game world with magic equipment sounds like a good idea. gonna need to see if 2h actual gets enough of an advantage to make it worth the obvious penalty o' having one less equipable slot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Agree Completely. Without an increase in damage 2h will fall way behind. Especially late in game.

[Gromnir]

Good points Gromnir, but usually video games offset this by making enchantments on 2hd, be scaled up version of their equivalent on 1hd (as in, +5ACC buff on a 1hd, becomes +10ACC for example).

am gonna need see actual implementation, but please note that your suggestion were not the way the ie games worked. even in games such as dragon age that attempted to balance 2h and dual-wielding more fairly ended up working in favor o' dual wield mostly 'cause o' the functional stacking o' magical equipment. many weapons in other games is capable o' being wielded one or 2h... such as spears. admittedly, am not recollecting if spears can be equipped 1h in PoE. nevertheless, such stuff is another possible balancing issue particularly where player crafting comes into play. the ability to stack and choose how to stack 2x the magic equipment is a significant advantage.

 

*shrug*

 

ours is simply guesswork, but we do recognize that frequent dual-wield ends up being advantageous 'cause o' load out benefits. an inherent 2h benefit to compensate does not strike us as unreasonable approach.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadenuat]

Perhaps every character could have a special part of UI dedicated to tracking his attack and casting speed, if there's no such thing already.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Shadenuat

[Valorian]

Valorian: Interesting point. As a seasoned wood chopper, I know my way around axes. I chop with various axes, and go both 1H and 2H. I can tell you that if I do a full-force, but still aimed, chop at something and hit, the recovery time is considerably faster 1H than 2H. However, done correctly, a 2H strike is more forceful and often faster, swung sideways, but in a vertical chop, it's pretty even, still talking full-force here. 

 

I wasn't really advocating realism here, but I appreciate your observation. I'd rather he push realism for attributes (as an aspect of role playing) than in weapon vs weapon balance.

 

 

Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

am suspecting the damage from 2 attacks with the 2h will be greater than 2 attacks with 2 medium weapons.

 

however, please realize this is a mechanic for a game with magical weapons. each equipable slot allows for additional magical buffing.  a theoretical general accuracy improvement conferred by a weapon could conceivable stack with a 2-weapon load out.  2 weapons that each grant a stat buff. 2 weapons that... etc. regardless o' damages, dual wield has almost always become a better approach at high levels as magic weapons allowed stacking o' benefits. 

 

a mechanic that recognizes the inherent superiority o' 2 equipable slots in a game world with magic equipment sounds like a good idea. gonna need to see if 2h actual gets enough of an advantage to make it worth the obvious penalty o' having one less equipable slot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Weapon buffs (such as +fire damage) scale with base weapon damage in PoE, Gromnir.

I think it's sensible to design the system so that, for instance, a magical accuracy bonus applies to the weapon that is providing it and not on both weapons if dual-wielding. Separate values for accuracy: http://thebitpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/pe-ui-character-sheet.jpg

 

So if that's the case (intuitive design) then your point is moot.

[Gromnir]

 

Valorian: Interesting point. As a seasoned wood chopper, I know my way around axes. I chop with various axes, and go both 1H and 2H. I can tell you that if I do a full-force, but still aimed, chop at something and hit, the recovery time is considerably faster 1H than 2H. However, done correctly, a 2H strike is more forceful and often faster, swung sideways, but in a vertical chop, it's pretty even, still talking full-force here. 

 

I wasn't really advocating realism here, but I appreciate your observation. I'd rather he push realism for attributes (as an aspect of role playing) than in weapon vs weapon balance.

 

 

Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

am suspecting the damage from 2 attacks with the 2h will be greater than 2 attacks with 2 medium weapons.

 

however, please realize this is a mechanic for a game with magical weapons. each equipable slot allows for additional magical buffing.  a theoretical general accuracy improvement conferred by a weapon could conceivable stack with a 2-weapon load out.  2 weapons that each grant a stat buff. 2 weapons that... etc. regardless o' damages, dual wield has almost always become a better approach at high levels as magic weapons allowed stacking o' benefits. 

 

a mechanic that recognizes the inherent superiority o' 2 equipable slots in a game world with magic equipment sounds like a good idea. gonna need to see if 2h actual gets enough of an advantage to make it worth the obvious penalty o' having one less equipable slot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Weapon buffs (such as +fire damage) scale with base weapon damage in PoE, Gromnir.

I think it's sensible to design the system so that, for instance, a magical accuracy bonus applies to the weapon that is providing it and not on both weapons if dual-wielding. Separate values for accuracy: http://thebitpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/pe-ui-character-sheet.jpg

 

So if that's the case (intuitive design) then your point is moot.

 

extra damage is the least worrisome o' benefits. stat benefits, and secondary stat benefits as well as qualities such as stunning can be stacked or multiplied.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Valorian: Interesting point. As a seasoned wood chopper, I know my way around axes. I chop with various axes, and go both 1H and 2H. I can tell you that if I do a full-force, but still aimed, chop at something and hit, the recovery time is considerably faster 1H than 2H. However, done correctly, a 2H strike is more forceful and often faster, swung sideways, but in a vertical chop, it's pretty even, still talking full-force here. 

 

I wasn't really advocating realism here, but I appreciate your observation. I'd rather he push realism for attributes (as an aspect of role playing) than in weapon vs weapon balance.

Thanks, and we're in agreement on that. More realistically weighted attributes, yes please.

Edited September 2, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Perhaps every character could have a special part of UI dedicated to tracking his attack and casting speed, if there's no such thing already.

I'm probably going to suggest that at least for weapons, animation & recovery lengths be determined on a per-weapon basis like they are for ranged weapons (where they have longer recovery depending on the reload) AND that the Base Attack Time (Animation + Recovery) be displayed on the weapon, where the actual value with modifiers can be displayed in the inventory next to a damage per hit tooltip.

 

I also think the weapon style system is a bit ehhh as well, I think TWF Half Recovery speed and removing the 50% slowdown from weapon style and shields would be much better. Then you can tune the speeds and damage ranges of weapons individually for more variation!

 

This way it's a unified system with transparency, more room for variation and only ONE exception - that TWF is quicker

Edited September 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

 

 

Valorian: Interesting point. As a seasoned wood chopper, I know my way around axes. I chop with various axes, and go both 1H and 2H. I can tell you that if I do a full-force, but still aimed, chop at something and hit, the recovery time is considerably faster 1H than 2H. However, done correctly, a 2H strike is more forceful and often faster, swung sideways, but in a vertical chop, it's pretty even, still talking full-force here. 

 

I wasn't really advocating realism here, but I appreciate your observation. I'd rather he push realism for attributes (as an aspect of role playing) than in weapon vs weapon balance.

 

 

Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

am suspecting the damage from 2 attacks with the 2h will be greater than 2 attacks with 2 medium weapons.

 

however, please realize this is a mechanic for a game with magical weapons. each equipable slot allows for additional magical buffing.  a theoretical general accuracy improvement conferred by a weapon could conceivable stack with a 2-weapon load out.  2 weapons that each grant a stat buff. 2 weapons that... etc. regardless o' damages, dual wield has almost always become a better approach at high levels as magic weapons allowed stacking o' benefits. 

 

a mechanic that recognizes the inherent superiority o' 2 equipable slots in a game world with magic equipment sounds like a good idea. gonna need to see if 2h actual gets enough of an advantage to make it worth the obvious penalty o' having one less equipable slot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Weapon buffs (such as +fire damage) scale with base weapon damage in PoE, Gromnir.

I think it's sensible to design the system so that, for instance, a magical accuracy bonus applies to the weapon that is providing it and not on both weapons if dual-wielding. Separate values for accuracy: http://thebitpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/pe-ui-character-sheet.jpg

 

So if that's the case (intuitive design) then your point is moot.

 

extra damage is the least worrisome o' benefits. stat benefits, and secondary stat benefits as well as qualities such as stunning can be stacked or multiplied.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

 

I expect attribute bonuses to be applied with 'one-handed vs two-handed' potential in mind.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Valorian

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I also think the weapon style system is a bit ehhh as well, I think TWF Half Recovery speed and removing the 50% slowdown from weapon style and shields would be much better. Then you can tune the speeds and damage ranges of weapons individually for more variation!

 

This way it's a unified system with transparency and only ONE exception - that TWF is quicker

 

You're onto something super-slick and intuitive there! It really would benefit from simplification.

[wanderon]

 

Good points Gromnir, but usually video games offset this by making enchantments on 2hd, be scaled up version of their equivalent on 1hd (as in, +5ACC buff on a 1hd, becomes +10ACC for example).

am gonna need see actual implementation, but please note that your suggestion were not the way the ie games worked. even in games such as dragon age that attempted to balance 2h and dual-wielding more fairly ended up working in favor o' dual wield mostly 'cause o' the functional stacking o' magical equipment. many weapons in other games is capable o' being wielded one or 2h... such as spears. admittedly, am not recollecting if spears can be equipped 1h in PoE. nevertheless, such stuff is another possible balancing issue particularly where player crafting comes into play. the ability to stack and choose how to stack 2x the magic equipment is a significant advantage.

 

*shrug*

 

ours is simply guesswork, but we do recognize that frequent dual-wield ends up being advantageous 'cause o' load out benefits. an inherent 2h benefit to compensate does not strike us as unreasonable approach.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Spears can indeed be equipped one handed in POE - one of the character choices starts with spear and dagger with certain background choice - barbarian maybe.

[Sensuki]

 

I also think the weapon style system is a bit ehhh as well, I think TWF Half Recovery speed and removing the 50% slowdown from weapon style and shields would be much better. Then you can tune the speeds and damage ranges of weapons individually for more variation!

 

This way it's a unified system with transparency and only ONE exception - that TWF is quicker

You're onto something super-slick and intuitive there! It really would benefit from simplification.

 

It will be part of my next thread, I've got a bunch of combat tuning suggestions lined up, probably going to include attributes, animations, recovery time, weapons and some other stuff

 

edit: with the maths to back it up

Edited September 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[mutonizer]

This way it's a unified system with transparency, more room for variation and only ONE exception - that TWF is quicker

 

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept that TWF is actually overall slower than everything else while I've been conditioned for the past 30 years to it meaning more attacks per a given time-frame.

 

I'm getting too old for this ****

Edited September 2, 2014 by mutonizer

[Gromnir]

 

"I expect attribute bonuses to be applied with 'one-handed vs two-handed' potential in mind."

 

an assumption on your part which still ignores other bonuses such as stunning and wounding and whatnot.

 

aside: keep in mind that we ain't saying that josh configured this mechanic to deal with the seeming ubiquitous crpg benefit of dual wiled.  however, Gromnir is observing that we can conceive o' a rational reason for giving an advantage to 2h. as such, am not gonna jump to conclusions that the included graphic disproportionate favors 2h in practical game terms.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 2, 2014 by Gromnir

[Valorian]

 

 

"I expect attribute bonuses to be applied with 'one-handed vs two-handed' potential in mind."

 

an assumption on your part which still ignores other bonuses such as stunning and wounding and whatnot.

 

aside: keep in mind that we ain't saying that josh configured this mechanic to deal with the seeming ubiquitous crpg benefit of dual wiled.  however, Gromnir is observing that we can conceive o' a rational reason for giving an advantage to 2h. as such, am not gonna jump to conclusions that the included graphic disproportionate favors 2h in practical game terms.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It doesn't ignore it.

 

It applies to on-hit effects as well (sorry, I haven't listed all possible effects that can be applied to weapons). If they're going to design a weapon and give it the "paralyze on Hit" property I expect they'll balance the duration of this effect taking said weapon's attack speed into account.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

"I expect attribute bonuses to be applied with 'one-handed vs two-handed' potential in mind."

 

an assumption on your part which still ignores other bonuses such as stunning and wounding and whatnot.

 

aside: keep in mind that we ain't saying that josh configured this mechanic to deal with the seeming ubiquitous crpg benefit of dual wiled.  however, Gromnir is observing that we can conceive o' a rational reason for giving an advantage to 2h. as such, am not gonna jump to conclusions that the included graphic disproportionate favors 2h in practical game terms.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It doesn't ignore it.

 

It applies to on-hit effects as well (sorry, I haven't listed all possible effects that can be applied to weapons). If they're going to design a weapon and give it the "paralyze on Hit" property I expect they'll balance the duration of this effect taking said weapon's attack speed into account.

 

am not believing we are communicating. Gromnir's fault.

 

left hand weapon stuns. right hand weapon wounds.

 

2 h weapon stuns.

 

...

 

advantage to 2h weapon load out. even if 2h weapon is given a longer stun, the advantage is still likely favoring 2 effects. 

 

as stated by another poster above, some weapons may be wielded 1h or 2h. this further complicates. gonna give potential 2 stun/wound effects to 2h weapons, but only 1 to 1h weapons? that becomes more difficult with weapons that can be wielded both as 1h or 2h... in fact, many attributes become more difficult to deal with once a single weapon can be wielded in 2 different fashions.

 

*shrug*

 

again, if the issue o' 1h v. 2h were such a simple issue to deal with, then we expect the dual wield advantage wouldn't be so darn ubiquitous in crpgs. it is-- dual-wield, at higher levels almost invariably becomes a WIN unless 2h is given massive damage benefits. 

 

am not seeing an issue of concern without further information.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valorian]

 

 

 

 

"I expect attribute bonuses to be applied with 'one-handed vs two-handed' potential in mind."

 

an assumption on your part which still ignores other bonuses such as stunning and wounding and whatnot.

 

aside: keep in mind that we ain't saying that josh configured this mechanic to deal with the seeming ubiquitous crpg benefit of dual wiled.  however, Gromnir is observing that we can conceive o' a rational reason for giving an advantage to 2h. as such, am not gonna jump to conclusions that the included graphic disproportionate favors 2h in practical game terms.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It doesn't ignore it.

 

It applies to on-hit effects as well (sorry, I haven't listed all possible effects that can be applied to weapons). If they're going to design a weapon and give it the "paralyze on Hit" property I expect they'll balance the duration of this effect taking said weapon's attack speed into account.

 

am not believing we are communicating. Gromnir's fault.

 

left hand weapon stuns. right hand weapon wounds.

 

2 h weapon stuns.

 

...

 

advantage to 2h weapon load out. even if 2h weapon is given a longer stun, the advantage is still likely favoring 2 effects. 

 

 

 

 

That entirely depends on the difference in duration and the difference in power between these effects, doesn't it? If Y is better than X it's more useful to have 1 second of Y than 0.5 sec of X and 0.5 of Y.

 

Currently, as you have probably noticed, these two styles have the same attack rate (attacks per unit of time).

[Valorian]

Update.

 

Josh said:

"That chart is a little out of date. I made it a few months ago. Two-handed weapons, one-handed weapons wielded alone, and one-handed weapons with shields now all have +50% Recovery Time. Dual-wielding has the fastest attack rate (even faster when used with two fast weapons like stilettos or rapiers)."

[Infinitron]

UPDATED VERSION:

 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Infinitron

[Headbomb]

Basically, he forgot to include the 2H weapon recovery penalty.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Though I'm not sure if it's currently working in the BB, weapon-inflicted conditions like Stun should have their base duration modified based on the attack speed of the weapons, so fast 1H weapons have the shortest durations and 2H weapons have the longest.

 

E: I know there's an issue in our bug list for Tim, but there are a lot of bugs to go through, so I'm not sure if it's been addressed yet or not.

[Adventurer]

So there is no 1h style bonus recovery & deflect & crit wise ? only accuracy ? I think that style should really be offered and not overlooked as in soooo many other games the same goes for throwing weapons ! =D

 

as some other people said before 2h weapons seem op right now !

[J.E. Sawyer]

A single 1H weapon gains an Accuracy bonus, so that means they are also much more likely to score a Crit.