Another comment on the exp system

[Xwing@Aliciousness]

 

There was a lot of pointlesss combat in the ie games, and it did get tedious. Also you could just run from many trash mobs. The core activity in poe is not using stealth yo avoid combay, that is hyperbole. You were given a demo to test basic, talentless, combat and basic nonstory quests. From this and a loose knowledge of one developer youve drawn your own personal fantastic conclusions about a finished product you know very little about.

Thank you for admitting that you don't have to kill everything in an IE game for XP. We really appreciate it.

 

I didn't think the combat was tedious in the IE games, it was the core activity of the game and I enjoyed it. I see have admitted that you didn't really enjoy combat, which would explain why you can hardly wait to play this stealth simulator.

 

Anyway, I can draw as many conclusions as I like from the core mechanics that Obsidian presented. The game is obviously a stealth simulator and it needs to be fixed.

 

 

 

I'm not sure when Obsidian came to the conclusion that the mechanics in the IE games are total crap and need to be replaced. Mechanically PoE resembles Darklands more than any of IE games, which is not surprising considering the fact that Sawyer's favorite game is Darklands and that he hates Baldur's Gate.

They didnt come to that conclusion, you did, among many other unsubstantiated claims.

 

Now you have to explain why PoE is a stealth simulator that doesn't resemble any of the IE games at all.

 

 

Let me explain this to you too.

 

Yes, they do drop items. You collect items and sell them for gold or you collect crafting materials. What do you need gold for? To buy camping supplies or craft. What do you need camping supplies or crafted items for? For combat. Duh.

 

Man, if only we got XP for combat, instead of loot, everything would be fixed! Because, what do you need XP for? Obviously anything but combat.

 

BRILLIANT! 8D

 

What the?

 

You obviously didn't understand a word I wrote in my entire post. There is no incentive to engage in combat. Understand?

 

You is so salty Bruh 

[Lephys]

What the?

 

You obviously didn't understand a word I wrote in my entire post. There is no incentive to engage in combat. Understand?

I'm afraid I don't. You pointed out that combat rewards are just illusions, since you need to "spend" them to maintain relative combat effectiveness. But, what do you need XP for? Oh, that's right, to level up, so that you can take on those higher-level creatures in, that's right, combat, instead of getting your face waxed off by them.

 

So, I really don't get your point. There's no incentive to engage in combat, XP or no, according to your line of reasoning, beyond "so I can continue to be effective at combat." But why do you want to be effective at combat? To get XP and loot. But why do you... You see where that's going?

 

I mean, is every RPG really terrible, because all you ever get from progression is the means to further progress? o_O

[Stun]

 

 

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

 

 

Helm's talking nonsense. Enemies do drop loot, sometimes very good loot. The two fights in Dyrford itself drop excellent armor and weapons including probably the best ranged weapon in the demo, so much so that if you go the pacifist route you're actively handicapping yourself for the rest of the beta, or at least until you get through to some rather nice found loot.

 

Some other drops are more disappointing though; wildlife usually just drops monster bits which may or may not come in handy in crafting, and some of the other human enemies had fairly underwhelming drops. I hope they fix the latter; don't mind wolfs dropping wolf hides and spiders dropping venom sacs and spider legs.

 

I found loot drops in general to be remarkably underwhelming in this demo. And, just like in IWD2, the best loot was in the shops. This is a topic on its own, however, so I'll just sit back in smug approval as I watch the Quest-XP only crowd reduced to advocating kill-grinding for loot. Edited September 4, 2014 by Stun

[Grand_Commander13]

... First off, whether or not the best loot is in the shops, there's still loot. Oddly enough, loot that can be converted into currency and then used at the shops (unlike experience points).

 

Second, I'm pretty sure the people who say kill XP isn't crucial to the game aren't going to be advocating grinding enemies anyway; they view combat as a natural consequence of exploration, which you do because you want a sense of having completed everything. If you think that the loot isn't good enough to really give a sense that it was worth it, that is way easier to fix than rebalancing the experience point gain to allow for kill XP.

[Stun]

... First off, whether or not the best loot is in the shops, there's still loot.

That neither addresses the motivation to engage in combat nor the motivation to engage in exploration.

 

Oddly enough, loot that can be converted into currency and then used at the shops (unlike experience points).

Translation: "well, hehehe, at least enemies drop vender trash!"

 

Second, I'm pretty sure the people who say kill XP isn't crucial to the game aren't going to be advocating grinding enemies anyway; they view combat as a natural consequence of exploration, which you do because you want a sense of having completed everything. If you think that the loot isn't good enough to really give a sense that it was worth it, that is way easier to fix than rebalancing the experience point gain to allow for kill XP.

Oh I'm sure that's what they're trying to say. But that's not what their arguments are advocating. These XP threads have become very *simple* reads. A typical exchange goes like this:

 

Poster A: If we don't get XP for engaging in combat, then what's the point in engaging in combat?

Poster B: LOOT!

 

The conclusion that Poster B wishes us to arrive at is that Loot is somehow to be seen as a replacement/substitute for kill XP, which, according to previous arguments from Poster B, is what used to cause people to kill grind. So now instead of Kill grinding for XP, we've got people arguing that Kill grinding for loot is what you can do now.

 

This doesn't sit well with me, and it shouldn't sit well with anyone else.

[Grand_Commander13]

Actually, Poster B would probably be more like "Because it's fun? Because it's in the way of somewhere you want to be? Or, if you absolutely must be incentivized to play the game, loot."

 

I think the problem is that you look at people who think they're talking to small children and act like they're explaining why they intend to play the game.

[Lephys]

These XP threads have become very *simple* reads. A typical exchange goes like this:

 

Poster A: If we don't get XP for engaging in combat, then what's the point in engaging in combat?

Poster B: LOOT!

 

The conclusion that Poster B wishes us to arrive at is that Loot is somehow to be seen as a replacement/substitute for kill XP, which, according to previous arguments from Poster B, is what used to cause people to kill grind. So now instead of Kill grinding for XP, we've got people arguing that Kill grinding for loot is what you can do now.

 

This doesn't sit well with me, and it shouldn't sit well with anyone else.

Yeah... OR, Poster B wishes you to simply employ basic reasoning skills to realize that, even without XP, there are still things to be gained from combat within the system. Loot is, factually, a reason for killing things. Doesn't mean it's THE reason, or it's always a great reason, etc. So, "Oh yeah, so we should grind for that?!" is a wildly ridiculous way to go from there. You can "grind" for anything. If there were no rewards for combat, you could just grind for fun.

 

XP did not monopolize grinding.

 

The reason the vast majority of heated-debate threads like this become so "simple" is that many folks seem to be incapable of taking points for what they are, because it's easier and more appeasing to their debate hunger to take them for what they'd like to argue against to further their own point, for some reason.

[Stun]

Yeah... OR, Poster B wishes you to simply employ basic reasoning skills to realize that, even without XP, there are still things to be gained from combat within the system. Loot is, factually, a reason for killing things. Doesn't mean it's THE reason,

It doesn't? Well since we've been through, what, 10 threads about this now (?), and no other in game reason has been given, how are we supposed to conclude that?

 

But maybe that's the whole idea after all: to make combat feel as pointless as possible so people treat it as a punishment and avoid it unless mortally necessary. This of course, can be a fairly *good* design philosophy.... If you're trying to design Planescape Torment 2. But since PoE is a combat focused game, this design doesn't do anything but leave a giant nagging feeling that something is missing. One need only do the Gorge map in the Beta to see the truth behind my words.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Have you played the Beta Lephys? Your posts come across as your usual hypothetical abstract posts. Not any personal experience from playing the Beta. I've also noticed your absence from the Beta forum as well.

[Silent Winter]

^I don't have the beta - so honest Q: IS the combat fun?  It seems it was hard to tell in the first beta-build due to too many bugs (and I don't mean the beetles )

How's it shaping up in the new build?  Is it tactical?  Is there the satisfaction of crushing your enemies, seeing them driven bef... oh wait, just the crushing part then?

 

I'm not convinced by the 'kill for loot' argument but is it fun to play through the areas and meet the inevitable quests?  (even if you still miss the kill-xp)

Or is the combat a boring grind / an annoying obstacle to climb over on your way to fun?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Having played the original Beta (will play the latest version in a few hours), after my first playthrough and subsequent playthroughs, I wanted to avoid as much combat as possible. Trash mobs don't give me any incentive to engage them. And this is a little immersion breaking knowing there are enemies wandering around just outside of town and I just leave them there. Even in town, you're told bandits are wandering the area. eh, who cares? Is there a quest to round up all these bandits? No. Okay so no xp rewards to handle these bandits or other type of enemies. So I can't be bothered engaging them. And it's not like they attack the town anyway, because the game isn't designed like that. So those bandits or feral druids or whoever that the villagers talk about can stay on that imaginary road.

 

Stun is right in that the Gorge map has something missing and feels pointless with it's encounters with the lions and feral druids. I avoid them at all costs because the rewards are vendor trash loot or lion pelts which is also vendor trash (in the beta). There is no quest, therefore no xp reward to engage them. And it's not worth the health of my characters to engage them because there is no cure light wound type spells to heal your health. I have to rest (like go back to the inn) to heal my party. I don't want to use my limited camping supplies as I usually save them for the dungeons. And I find I do need them for the dungeons.

 

It's easy to avoid the druids because they are in the top half part of the map and there's no need to go to there. There's nothing there other than the druids walking around and some of the lions. I don't know the exact size of a BG1 map to a PoE map, but the PoE maps are small and half the map feels like a waste which makes the map even smaller. Imagine a BG1 map and cut it in half. That's what it feels like with the PoE maps. And I'm not talking pixels. How I would measure a map size is by the character. eg. If you have a human character and placed it on top of itself. The amount of figures placed on itself would be a lot in a BG1 map. If you did the same with a PoE map, it would be far less. So the travel time in getting from the top to the bottom of the map is less than in BG1. Maybe someone can measure the maps with how tall your characters are, I'm too lazy to do it.

 

Granted a lot of BG1 maps didn't have a lot of stuff on them, but if I did come across something in my exploration, I was rewarded with more than just vendor trash loot. But in PoE, that's usually all I find which is why I avoid these encounters now.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[NikoBolas]

... I wanted to avoid as much combat as possible. Trash mobs don't give me any incentive to engage them. And this is a little immersion breaking knowing there are enemies wandering around just outside of town and I just leave them there. Even in town, you're told bandits are wandering the area. eh, who cares? Is there a quest to round up all these bandits? No. Okay so no xp rewards to handle these bandits or other type of enemies. So I can't be bothered engaging them. And it's not like they attack the town anyway, because the game isn't designed like that. So those bandits or feral druids or whoever that the villagers talk about can stay on that imaginary road.

 

People engage in combat for no material or experience gains all the time in real life. "The thrill of the hunt" is a cliche phrase that sums this up. There is a visceral satisfaction that comes from engaging in a difficult encounter and overcoming it, even if it is just digital 1s and 0s. To say that you personally don't care because you understand that the game does not give you sufficient reward or chance for reward by engaging in those bandits is your singular opinion. It is not some game design theory you came up with. People play games without rewards ALL THE TIME. It's fun. They are games. While some games have become filled with little lottery tickets after you destroy X number of monsters that is not what originally attracted people to the IE games. They were ROLE playing games. You took on a role and fulfilled a destiny. The interaction with the story and your own personal protagonist is what attracted many to Baldur's Gate. You did things not knowing what loot you would get, how much exp they were worth, or if you would even live or have to reload the game.

 

To say that YOU can't be bothered makes it clear that YOU need rewards to do things, which is a personality trait YOU have. It may even be a common gaming trait. But please don't make it sound like we all need to be rewarded for every single action we take in a game. Sometimes its fun to fight the dragon just to see if you can beat it, not to go online read the correct anti-dragon strategy, execute him, and prosper off the xps and acquire the next piece of equipment your build requires. 

[Guest 4ward]

i think there may be a problem with quest-xp that if there are any final bosses waiting at the end of the quest and there are different solutions to handle it, they are more easily beaten than if it would be a combat-only option. The player has more problems overcoming the enemies along the way as there's no other possiiblity to handle it than through combat, but when he gets to the oger, for example, he's nearly a walkover in combat.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

People engage in combat for no material or experience gains all the time in real life. "The thrill of the hunt" is a cliche phrase that sums this up. There is a visceral satisfaction that comes from engaging in a difficult encounter and overcoming it, even if it is just digital 1s and 0s. To say that you personally don't care because you understand that the game does not give you sufficient reward or chance for reward by engaging in those bandits is your singular opinion. It is not some game design theory you came up with. People play games without rewards ALL THE TIME. It's fun. They are games. While some games have become filled with little lottery tickets after you destroy X number of monsters that is not what originally attracted people to the IE games. They were ROLE playing games. You took on a role and fulfilled a destiny. The interaction with the story and your own personal protagonist is what attracted many to Baldur's Gate. You did things not knowing what loot you would get, how much exp they were worth, or if you would even live or have to reload the game.

 

To say that YOU can't be bothered makes it clear that YOU need rewards to do things, which is a personality trait YOU have. It may even be a common gaming trait. But please don't make it sound like we all need to be rewarded for every single action we take in a game. Sometimes its fun to fight the dragon just to see if you can beat it, not to go online read the correct anti-dragon strategy, execute him, and prosper off the xps and acquire the next piece of equipment your build requires. 

 

 

You should read my post again. Silent Winter asked a question and I answered with how "I" feel. Noticed I never said 'most people' or saying 'what other people may feel'. It was 'my' experience with the game and it was clear I was talking about how 'I' felt.

 

I'm not saying to Silent WInter that I need to be rewarded for every single action or even other people need to be rewarded for every single action. I even said you are rewarded for vendor trash loot with enemies like the lions, because the lion pelts ARE vendor trash loot in the Beta. So even with actions like engaging enemies, you ARE rewarded for those actions. For me the payoff isn't there to engage them. And that IS roleplaying. You can take the 'meh, I don't care about the bandits because the payoff isn't there' attitude as part of your character and that is what I'm doing with my characters. That is roleplaying in a roleplaying game.

 

And if you want to bring in real life examples.. LMAO, there are many examples in real life where I think to myself, the rewards are so little for the effort to put in so I won't bother.

 

Instead, how about answering Silent Winter's question and actually contribute something worthwhile on how you feel about the Beta and how you play it, if you enjoy it and what do you like and dislike.

[NikoBolas]

eh, who cares? Is there a quest to round up all these bandits? No. Okay so no xp rewards to handle these bandits or other type of enemies. So I can't be bothered engaging them.

 

 

That isn't roleplaying man. You're not taking on the role of a hero and saying "eh, I'm not supposed to do this for any material gain so I won't do it". Or else maybe you only play mercenary-for-hire types.

 

And this thread is about commenting on the exp system, not Silent Winter's post about the beta update.

Edited September 4, 2014 by NikoBolas

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

That isn't roleplaying man. You're not taking on the role of a hero and saying "eh, I'm not supposed to do this for any material gain so I won't do it". Or else maybe you only play mercenary-for-hire types.

 

And this thread is about commenting on the exp system, not Silent Winter's post about the beta update.

 

It is roleplaying man. You roleplay your characters however you want you to be. You can't dictate to others on how to roleplay their characters and what constitutes a hero. And you don't have to be a mercenary that hinges on payment. You might decide in the end the risk isn't worth it. Not everyone plays their heroes like Paladins.

 

Also, Silent Winter asked about things like the combat and the argument with kill for loot which some people (those for quest xp only) are saying that should be enough, which is part of the discussion of the xp system and what it's like in the Beta. I gave my opinion and how I feel about parts of the Beta and part of that is if there's no xp, and the rewards are too little (vender loot trash) for the risks (characters health, possible deaths and time in resting) or if it's just mind numbingly time consuming, then I weigh all that up and in the end, I decide to avoid combat. I find random trash mob fights not enjoyable in this game. Just like the random encounters between maps in BG1 where you are waylaid by bandits such as Kobolds and I beeline to the edge of the map to get out of there. You could get xp for those waylaid encounters with Kobolds, but I never bothered.

 

I'd rather spend time on better rewards than very little to no rewards. And that's one of the problems I see with this game. And with meta-knowledge with return playthroughs of the game, just as return playthroughs of the beta, I avoid combat which gives little to no rewards and that translates into avoiding half the areas on the maps (trash mobs with vendor loot trash) and concentrating on other areas where the rewards are much higher. eg. Quests with better loot items.

[Silent Winter]

 

eh, who cares? Is there a quest to round up all these bandits? No. Okay so no xp rewards to handle these bandits or other type of enemies. So I can't be bothered engaging them.

 

 

That isn't roleplaying man. You're not taking on the role of a hero and saying "eh, I'm not supposed to do this for any material gain so I won't do it". Or else maybe you only play mercenary-for-hire types.

 

And this thread is about commenting on the exp system, not Silent Winter's post about the beta update.

 

To be fair - Hiro was anwering my question, and it does relate to the xp-system because of the arguments for and against kill-xp.

Those against (like me, though I've become less caring about it since these threads dragged on) have argued that the combat is played for fun.  A lack of xp reward doesn't matter because we can get xp elsewhere and still engage in combat because it's challenging/lootable/just plain fun.

 

So Hiro's answer was relevant both to my question and to the arguments at hand.

 

I'd still like others' opinions on the fun of combat (especially in new build).  Does it hold up without xp to make it worthwhile?  (Doesn't mean xp will fix it, but it is relevant to the arguments).

Edited September 4, 2014 by Silent Winter

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Well I've been playing the updated beta for a while, metagaming and avoiding as many trash mob encounters as possible and it's far more enjoyable. Knowing what skills to put in with my characters and did exactly what Rose did in the recent video with her avoiding most trash mob encounters and going the optimal route to the Ogre cave and I only had to rest once. I took the exact same route Rose did. I did buy a 6th character from the Inn right at the start which was an OP Cipher at level 1. My character is an OP Chanter. LOL.

 

Not only did I level up the Cipher 3 times, but also levelled up the rest of the characters after just one quest. Knowing I didn't have to waste time on trash mobs with trash loot with no xp gain was good. Also, I used my Mighty Chanter to open the dungeon beneath Dyrford Crossing as I didn't want to go through the Ogre Cave passage ways, fighting spiders to get the Key. So an easy Might skill check wins out with this one.

 

Of note, my Chanter, inn Cipher and BB Wizard aren't wearing any clothes. They just stay back and do their range attacks while my BB Fighter, BB Priest and BB Rogue are on the front line. Why no clothes? Because it affects Recovery Speed and no clothes means no penalties to Recovery Speed!

 

Powergaming FTW!

[Stun]

People engage in combat for no material or experience gains all the time in real life. "The thrill of the hunt" is a cliche phrase that sums this up.

We were not promised a hunting simulator. This game isn't properly set up to be one anyway.

 

There is a visceral satisfaction that comes from engaging in a difficult encounter and overcoming it, even if it is just digital 1s and 0s.

While Combat in this game can be fun (even brilliant at times), it is not visceral enough to generate the proper satisfaction to engage in it even in a 2nd or 3rd playthrough of the beta, let alone the 2nd or 3rd playthrough of the 60 hour full game IMO **shudder**. And I suspect that even the developers know that the gamer is probably going to need a little more incentive than just 'personal satisfaction' or some silly 'achievement badge' equivalent in his head. The system currently in place incurs combat costs/risks (use of rare consumables; expending of limited per day abilities; possibility of death etc.) that assume an XP reward, yet there are none. That is faulty design any way you look at it. And it stems from the need to keep development costs down, not from any genuine attempt to make the game more fun.

 

To say that you personally don't care because you understand that the game does not give you sufficient reward or chance for reward by engaging in those bandits is your singular opinion. It is not some game design theory you came up with. People play games without rewards ALL THE TIME. It's fun. They are games. While some games have become filled with little lottery tickets after you destroy X number of monsters that is not what originally attracted people to the IE games. They were ROLE playing games. You took on a role and fulfilled a destiny. The interaction with the story and your own personal protagonist is what attracted many to Baldur's Gate. You did things not knowing what loot you would get, how much exp they were worth, or if you would even live or have to reload the game.

 

To say that YOU can't be bothered makes it clear that YOU need rewards to do things, which is a personality trait YOU have. It may even be a common gaming trait. But please don't make it sound like we all need to be rewarded for every single action we take in a game. Sometimes its fun to fight the dragon just to see if you can beat it, not to go online read the correct anti-dragon strategy, execute him, and prosper off the xps and acquire the next piece of equipment your build requires. 

Aah, and we rush right back to trying to, dishonestly, portray the Combat XP crowd as an inconsequential singular opinion held by some freak singular in the far corner of the internet. I've had this very same "it's just your opinion man!" retort tossed at me whenever I dared criticize any part of Dragon Age 2's crap design at BSN (for example) a few years ago. I was, of course, vindicated later when even the developers of that piece of garbage conceded, and acknowledged that their designs were objectively misguided.

 

Edit: and *someone* seems to be trying to impose his own opinion on what made the IE games so fun, while tongue-lashing us for doing the same. Tsk. Tsk. By the way, To argue that exploring the wilderness maps in BG1, lawnmower style, wasn't done for the sheer thrill of gaining XP and becoming more powerful as a result, is to IGNORE BG1 and everything it stands for.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I decided to do a little experiment with one of the quests. The Pacifist and Combat route with my Chanter.

 

*** Huge Spoilers. ***

 

Pacifist route. Resolve of 14 required by your Player Character. My Chanter has 19 Resolve.

 

 

 

The Cat and Mouse Quest - Medreth's gang and the Orlan in the inn

 

Letting the Orlan go 

- Reward 277 xp

 

Lying to Medreth

- Reward 2223 xp, 1000 copper

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combat route. Funnily enough, I was rewarded the xp when the fight started, not after it finished and one of my characters could level up.

 

 

 

 

Letting the Orlan go 

- Reward 277 xp

 

Fighting Medreth's gang

- Reward 2223 xp at start of fight. (Same as Pacifist Route)

 

Additiional Rewards found on dead bodies

- 1000 copper on Medreth's dead body. (Same as Pacifist Route)

 

Good Loot (Arguable)

- Fine Arquebus 30-55 Pierce

 

Average loot (Personally I wouldn't use it)

- Exceptional Medium Shield

 

Trash Loot

- 2 x Fine Stilletos

- Fine War Hammer

- Fine Scale Armor

- Fine Brigandine Armor

- Exceptional Leather Armor

- Fine Padded Armor

- Hood

- around a hundred or so coppers.

 

I may have missed something but that's about it.

 

And with my 3 naked characters standing back. LOL.

 

 

 

And my party hardly sustained any damage. Difficulty is Easy though. I did send my Chanter in to hurry combat up and he got hit with friendly fire by my Wizard. So other than the gun which I've seen better with ranged weapons, everything else was vendor trash imo.

 

 

 

 

Unless I really needed money, I'd most likely go the pacifist route. I don't have a problem with money going the pacifist route at the moment in my current playthrough and avoiding all the trash mobs and not selling vendor trash. I could have a lot more money, but I'd rather avoid the trash mobs and it feels more enjoyable due to not having to rest so much with this stamina/health design in this game.

 

If the battle is easy like the Ogre, I'll just kill the ogre. If the battle is going to be a hard battle, possible death of one of my characters and the rewards are similar with trash loot, more than likely pacifist route for me. Easy wins out. Because the xp rewards are exactly the same for pacifist and combat scenarios, at least in this example. The only difference is loot which more than likely will end up as vendor trash to sell anyway. And it's going to be great for that solo run.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Gromnir]

I decided to do a little experiment with one of the quests. The Pacifist and Combat route with my Chanter.

 

*** Huge Spoilers. ***

 

Pacifist route. Resolve of 14 required by your Player Character. My Chanter has 19 Resolve.

 

 

 

The Cat and Mouse Quest - Medreth's gang and the Orlan in the inn

 

Letting the Orlan go 

- Reward 277 xp

 

Lying to Medreth

- Reward 2223 xp, 1000 copper

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combat route. Funnily enough, I was rewarded the xp when the fight started, not after it finished and one of my characters could level up.

 

 

 

 

Letting the Orlan go 

- Reward 277 xp

 

Fighting Medreth's gang

- Reward 2223 xp at start of fight. (Same as Pacifist Route)

 

Additiional Rewards found on dead bodies

- 1000 copper on Medreth's dead body. (Same as Pacifist Route)

 

Good Loot (Arguable)

- Fine Arquebus 30-55 Pierce

 

Average loot (Personally I wouldn't use it)

- Exceptional Medium Shield

 

Trash Loot

- 2 x Fine Stilletos

- Fine War Hammer

- Fine Scale Armor

- Fine Brigandine Armor

- Exceptional Leather Armor

- Fine Padded Armor

- Hood

- around a hundred or so coppers.

 

I may have missed something but that's about it.

 

And with my 3 naked characters standing back. LOL.

 

 

 

And my party hardly sustained any damage. Difficulty is Easy though. I did send my Chanter in to hurry combat up and he got hit with friendly fire by my Wizard. So other than the gun which I've seen better with ranged weapons, everything else was vendor trash imo.

 

 

 

 

Unless I really needed money, I'd most likely go the pacifist route. I don't have a problem with money going the pacifist route at the moment in my current playthrough and avoiding all the trash mobs and not selling vendor trash. I could have a lot more money, but I'd rather avoid the trash mobs and it feels more enjoyable due to not having to rest so much with this stamina/health design in this game.

 

If the battle is easy like the Ogre, I'll just kill the ogre. If the battle is going to be a hard battle, possible death of one of my characters and the rewards are similar with trash loot, more than likely pacifist route for me. Easy wins out. Because the xp rewards are exactly the same for pacifist and combat scenarios, at least in this example. The only difference is loot which more than likely will end up as vendor trash to sell anyway. And it's going to be great for that solo run.

both such routes is viable 'cause of quest/task experience awards, which would seem like kinda the point o' such a mechanic. everybody wins.

 

...

 

no? there is still folks that says, "no"? 

 

 

am actual finally able to sympathize with strother martin. kinda a kewl name btw. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

LOL

 

When people are Skipping massive swaths of game content because they deem it pointless and worthless, we're no longer talking about viability, nor is it "win/win". Instead, it becomes a question of crap design. Even Josh will tell you that.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

yes, no doubt all those folks who play as elves instead o' as humans or dwarves consider those other options useless. use magic? in a game with sword? hell, only a wimp uses spells, or druids, or stealth or dialogue or bothers to solve puzzles when you got an option to kill instead. heck, the very idea that some jerk developer provides an alternate secret door or puzzle route whereby a dwarf druid could bypass combat more properly completed by elven fighters and non-magic using mages just chaps our hide. the more alternative options a cRPG developer includes in a game, the more it devalues the actual choices Gromnir makes. am knowing how enraged we were that folks in fallout were able to dialogue the final confrontation-- it made our combat focused character useless... that is why we sent a very tersely worded postcard to tim cain explaining that the more choices he gave other folks in fallout were the same degree he were robbing us o' the point and fun o' playing a combat character. bad tim.

 

...

 

wait. that doesn't make sense. that makes us sound like a complete nut-job. the ability o' other folks to complete the same game w/o resorting to combat made our game less fun... robbed it o' a point, robbed it o' worth? that would be crazy talk-- complete gibbering nonsense that nobody in their right mind would believe, yes?

 

*snort*

 

"When people are Skipping massive swaths of game content because they deem it pointless and worthless, we're no longer talking about viability, nor is it "win/win""

 

...

 

this is actual the exact reason for implementing quest/task xp. if you make other options available, but make them literal worth less, then you discourage those other optional play styles. make dialoguey or stealthy or creative options worthless is exact what quest/task xp avoids.

 

and 'round we go.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Stun]

I don't think we were talking about build or weapon choices there, Gromnir. But rather, the way in which combat was rendered secondary (and even pointless in many cases) in the grand scheme of things.

 

And like I said earlier on this thread, that'd be a decent design if they were designing Planescape Torment 2. But they're NOT. This is a combat centric game and combat should bestow the *best* rewards.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Stun

[Yonjuro]

I don't think we were talking about build or weapon choices there, Gromnir. But rather, the way in which combat was rendered secondary (and even pointless in many cases) in the grand scheme of things.

 

And like I said earlier on this thread, that'd be a decent design if they were designing Planescape Torment 2. But they're NOT. This is a combat centric game and combat should bestow the *best* rewards.

 

 

  If the game were to change to: still having quest based XP but where the combat options to solving quests gave more XP than the non-combat options; would that be better than the current situation?

 

 (I just want to understand your position.)