Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Tartantyco]

Whether any of the IE games were dungeon crawlers is completely irrelevant. Pillars of Eternity is not a dungeon crawler.

 

A dungeon crawler is something specific. I have provided you the definition of dungeon crawler. The way you define dungeon crawler simply means everything is a dungeon crawler, making it a useless definition.

 

Neither is Zeits here to answer the question of why combat needs to be rewarded, so his opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant to me.

[Shevek]

Naw, I think games where you spend the lion's share of your play time crawling through dungeons (looking for loot, truth, whatever) are dungeon crawlers.. Pretty simple really.

 

Hey, you can think whatever you want. PoE will have some C&C, thats true but, that being said, it was also have a megadungeon with gobs of loot. I am pretty sure the vast majority of its gameplay will be dungeon running too but, hey, you never know I guess.

[Tartantyco]

Your opinion is irrelevant. Pillars of Eternity is, by definition, not a dungeon crawler. There is no discussion to be had on the subject. Claiming that PoE must have combat XP because "it's a dungeon crawler" is an invalid argument. If you have any other arguments as to why PoE should have combat XP, I am happy to hear them.

[Stun]

I find it odd that no one is railing him for his comments about turn based combat. When I've made effectively the exact same observation I tend to get flamed for it. I guess it must be his holy aura protecting him!

In George's case (or at least in the context of the passage) I don't think it's so much an absolute preference for Turn based combat as it is simple gamer instinct. He thought combat was too fast, and would have benefitted from being slowed down a bit so the player can see the complexity of the system more clearly. Well? Turn based is the obvious solution to that. It's slower. But note that he also suggested that they simply slow things down....and that's what lots and lots of people here are suggesting.

 

In any case, I particularly agree with this part:

Liked that I could mouse over lines in the combat logs to get details about how I had rolled, how the enemy’s defense stat had affected my roll, etc. This turned out to be a very effective way to quickly learn the basics of the combat system.

Surprising that people aren't talking about this feature more. It's really nifty. The IE games didn't offer this. You could turn on To-hit rolls in the settings, but that's all you'd get. This system offers far more information, along with the added bonus that it's hidden by default, and visible if you mouse over the specific line in the combat log. That's brilliant. Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Shevek]

Your opinion is irrelevant. Pillars of Eternity is, by definition, not a dungeon crawler. There is no discussion to be had on the subject. Claiming that PoE must have combat XP because "it's a dungeon crawler" is an invalid argument. If you have any other arguments as to why PoE should have combat XP, I am happy to hear them.

 

From the Wiki YOU LINKED:

 

Some distinguish "dungeon crawlers" from rogue-likes and RPGs with stories and character-interaction, while others use the term to describe any game which features ample amounts of dungeon exploration 

 

I think you should read your "proof" before you post it.

[Leferd]

 

Liked that I could mouse over lines in the combat logs to get details about how I had rolled, how the enemy’s defense stat had affected my roll, etc. This turned out to be a very effective way to quickly learn the basics of the combat system.

Surprising that people aren't talking about this feature more. It's really nifty. The IE games didn't offer this. You could turn on To-hit rolls in the settings, but that's all you'd get. This system offers far more information, along with the added bonus that it's hidden by default, and visible if you mouse over the specific line in the combat log. That's brilliant.

Neat. I didn't know about this feature. Will have to check it out.

[Tartantyco]

Some ... while others 

 

 

/end of discussion.

[Stun]

I disagree with his criticism on inventory size (opinions..opinions...).

Really? You think 8 slots per character is enough? Not I. I found it rather tiresome having to do inventory house cleaning (moving things from the inventory to the stash) every other encounter because someone got "Full". Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Shevek]

 

I disagree with his criticism on inventory size (opinions..opinions...).

Really? You think 8 slots per character is enough?

 

 

Ya, I think with the stash, it works out. *shrug*

 

 

 

Some ... while others 

 

 

/end of discussion.

 

 

Ok with me. *waves*

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shevek

[Tartantyco]

 

I disagree with his criticism on inventory size (opinions..opinions...).

Really? You think 8 slots per character is enough?

 

Those eight slots are meant entirely for short-term tactical use, such as potions, scrolls, and additional weaponry. All else goes into the stash. 8 slots is more than enough.

[CatatonicMan]

From the Wiki YOU LINKED:

 

Some distinguish "dungeon crawlers" from rogue-likes and RPGs with stories and character-interaction, while others use the term to describe any game which features ample amounts of dungeon exploration 

 

I think you should read your "proof" before you post it.

 

 

Okay, but you changed your definitions in the middle of the argument. That's bad juju. This was you a few posts back:

 

I agree with him on combat xp (this is a dungeon crawler; we need murder xp) but I disagree with his criticism on inventory size (opinions..opinions...). I think he was too quick to judge combat speed considering, as he mentioned, that the state of combat is a bit buggy (moreover, I believe the issue is not speed but feedback).

 

See the problem? One definition of "dungeon crawler" - the one you originally used, mind - concerns the type of game and core gameplay. The other - the one you tossed out later - concerns the location or style of the game.

 

You can't use the second definition to make your point about XP.

Edited August 26, 2014 by CatatonicMan

[Shevek]

The type of game and core gameplay is inextricably tied to location and style of game. Dungeon crawler connotes all those things (KILLING CRAP in a DUNGEON). Stop splitting hairs. Its dumb.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shevek

[Stun]

All else goes into the stash.

You mean, moved to the stash.

[Tartantyco]

 

All else goes into the stash.

You mean, moved to the stash.

 

 

I'm not sure what the distinction would be here.

[CatatonicMan]

The type of game and core gameplay is inextricably tied to location and style of game. Dungeon crawler connotes all those things (KILLING CRAP in a DUNGEON). Stop splitting hairs. Its dumb.

 

No it isn't. You can make a hack and slash in the middle of a flowery field. You can make a cooking game in an underground labyrinth. Ambiance is important, but it doesn't dictate how the game plays or what the game is about.

 

Does PoE have dungeons? Sure. That's enough to make it a dungeon crawler from the environmental point of view. That's entirely different, however, from it being a dungeon crawler in the Diablo sense. 

 

You are making an equivocation fallacy. Continuing with the same flawed logic will only make your position less sound. It is, as you say, dumb.

Edited August 26, 2014 by CatatonicMan

[Stun]

I'm not sure what the distinction would be here.

It's the extra step. Lets say you've got 3 things in your inventory. You then come upon a chest. The chest has 6 things in it. You hit the "loot all" button. Well, you won't be able to loot everything. First you have to move stuff to the stash to make room, then you can loot everything. Alternatively, you can click on a different party member and have them loot everything, assuming they don't also have 3 or more inventory slots filled. This is something I found myself constantly wrestling with in the beta.

 

An extra row of inventory space per character would really help here.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Shevek]

CatatonicMan:

Naw, you are over complicating things. If you go into a labyrinthine environment, kill crap and find loot, then thats a dungeon crawl. If the game is so full of dungeon crawls that most of play time is dedicated to it, then its a dungeon crawler. There really is no need to try to make some silly argument to the contrary. If you disagree, then disagree but stop trying to find logical fallacies where there are none.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shevek

[CatatonicMan]

CatatonicMan:

Naw, you are over complicating things. If you go into a labyrinthine environment, kill crap and find loot, then thats a dungeon crawl. If the game is so full of dungeon crawls that most of play time is dedicated to it, then its a dungeon crawler. There really is no need to try to make some silly argument to the contrary. If you disagree, then disagree but stop trying to find logical fallacies where there are none.

 

No, I'm making things exactly as complicated as they need to be. You, on the other hand, are oversimplifying.

 

As a sidenote, it's a logical fallacy whether you believe it or not. Go have a read.

[Volourn]

"Really? You think 8 slots per character is enough? Not I. I found it rather tiresome having to do inventory house cleaning (moving things from the inventory to the stash) every other encounter because someone got "Full"."

\

It's too many and not enough. You shouldn't be able to carry 8 suits of armour but you should be able to carry more than 8 rolls of toilet paper. They want a ahrdcore game? Their inventory should be hardcore.   Encumbrance should also play a role. Then again, muscle isn't really strength in this game so you have to fanwank how physically strong' your character actually is. And, the stash is trash which is where it belongs  And, ruins the so called 'hardcore' 'cred' the game pretends to want.

 

 

 

And, while PE being a 'dungeon crawler' can be debated; what can't be debated is

 

 a) it's combat heavy as the devs admitted this already since it's a design goal

 

   and 

 

b) as of right, the xp system they have is supbar compared to every other xp system out there be it DOS or SRR. EPIC FAIL.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Volourn

[Shevek]

CatatonicMan:

I'm cool, thanks.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shevek

[PrimeHydra]

George was right: Combat is this game's central activity, and not rewarding it with experience points makes players want to shy away from that activity.

 

There may be a nice narrative surrounding it. There may be a decent number of dialog options. Some of those options may well allow you to feel clever by avoiding a fight. But at the end of the day, what are all those items and abilities for? Anyone who thinks this game is not primarily a tactical fantasy role-playing game is in the wrong forum.  I love nonviolent point-and-click adventure games, too. This is not one of those games. Argue all you like about whether it's a "dungeon crawler" or not. The developer's point about combat XP being missing was spot-on.

[Shevek]

George was right: Combat is this game's central activity, and not rewarding it with experience points makes players want to shy away from that activity.

 

There may be a nice narrative surrounding it. There may be a decent number of dialog options. Some of those options may well allow you to feel clever by avoiding a fight. But at the end of the day, what are all those items and abilities for? Anyone who thinks this game is not primarily a tactical fantasy role-playing game is in the wrong forum.  I love nonviolent point-and-click adventure games, too. This is not one of those games. Argue all you like about whether it's a "dungeon crawler" or not. The developer's point about combat XP being missing was spot-on.

 

Ya, the label doesn't really matter. What matters is that they made a combat heavy game that shies away from rewarding combat.

 

I do think its funny that people see "dungeon crawler" as a pejorative though. I freaking love a good dungeon crawl.

 

 

You like potato and I like potahto

You like tomato and I like tomahto

Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto.

Let's call the whole thing off

[Ink Blot]

Why? Nobody has yet explained why a reward is necessary.

 

I'll see if I can make it clearer then. Note, first of all, that I don't have a big issue with the XP awards being only for completing tasks or quests. Paramount to me is whether or not the game is fun to play (and so far I'm having fun with the beta despite its bugs and issues).

 

Note second of all that I never said a reward was 'necessary' (interesting that a few posts later you complain about someone putting words into your mouth). What I mean is it seems very odd to me that the bulk of abilities/talents/spells you choose for your character are oriented towards being effective in combat/killing opponents. So you play through the game, building your character and choosing all these abilities to add to them which serves to make them more efficient killers. Level after level of abilities - acquired through leveling up that is only accomplished by gaining XPs - that are useful only for combat (many of which can't even be used except in combat). Yet you get no XP reward for being successful in combat.

 

The game dishes out encounter after encounter where you end up having to fight (yes, you can avoid some, but judging from the beta, you're going to spend a whole lot of time in combat - and Zeits even stated it's the 'core activity of the game'). Yet you get no reward for investing all these abilities/talents/spells and for completing the 'core activity of the game'. To me, this just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why have the character talents/abilities/spells geared towards an activity that gives no XP reward to the player? Why have no XP reward for the 'core activity of the game'?

[Volourn]

"Why? Nobody has yet explained why a reward is necessary."

 

Ask yourself why xp exists and why Obsidian themselves have decided to actually use in this game. Then you will get the answer which is obvious.

[Sensuki]

Surprising that people aren't talking about this feature more. It's really nifty. The IE games didn't offer this. You could turn on To-hit rolls in the settings, but that's all you'd get. This system offers far more information, along with the added bonus that it's hidden by default, and visible if you mouse over the specific line in the combat log. That's brilliant.

I actually don't like the combat log for a few reasons.

 

#1: It's in a horrible position on the screen. Humans who are not from a right-indented reading culture such as the Middle East, read from the left, and focus our attention to the left side of objects. Books, websites, programs and operating systems are left aligned.

 

Pillars of Eternity has been designed so that the combat log is not required. It has been put in the most useless part of the screen to read on the fly, and is fully collapsible. Damage floats are used above units so that you don't have to use it for reading the combat and it doesn't display the raw information on the fly so you can't read what's going on. The design for this log is to not be used on the fly, but to be used during paused combat or after combat if you want to check something.

 

In the Infinity Engine games, you needed to read the combat log to see how much damage you did, what you rolled on your saving throws, and (if you had to hit rolls on, which I did always) why you rolled a miss - among other things. It was centred and could be expanded for on the fly reading in combat - which is what I used to do.

 

The PE combat log has been designed so that you don't have to use it. I find this really annoying, because this was my preferred method of playing the Infinity Engine games. It is likely that the lead designer didn't use the combat log that much when he was playing/didn't like it.

 

The amount of information the PE combat log churns out is cool ... but it's not practical for on the fly reading. There really needs to be some sort of filter system.

 

The UI design has also turned out to be pretty crappyy overall. There's a mass amount of dead space in the middle of the screen (this is where the action bar or combat log should be, tbh) because the design caters to those minimalist bastards first.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sensuki