Combat XP Poll - Let's See What We Think Now

[Mayama]

This thread is bizarre, like honestly most people here do not seem to understand that the XP rewarded for kills in BG was meaningless. Only boss fights gave a big chunk of XP and that was bascialy part of the quest xp. All progress in BG was gated through quests. Grinding enemies for xp did not help you in any way because the amount of XP was so low. 

 

Even if you implement kill-xp in a rpg with multible quest solving options you are either forced to give almost zero XP (compared to the level of the character) or you have to deal with people exploitng the **** out of it. Deus EX- Human revolution is the most recent example that suffers from that problem. Its not a pure rpg but in the end the problem is similar. The problem is that people will solve quests the peacefull way and than kill the antagonist.

 

Look at the beta, right now you get XP for solving the oger quest once, if you would get kill xp from killing the oger people would solve the quest peacefully and than kill him, getting twice the xp they should get. That shows that you cant give meaningfull kill xp and NO proper rpg that wasnt a dungeon crawl hack fest gives you tons of xp for killing stuff because of that exact reason.

 

About progress, most computer rpg's split progess in segments called levels. If you get 10% of your xp in the wilderness killing stuff and 90% of it by solving the quest (like in BG) or if you get 0% of the xp in the wilderness and 100% at the end doesnt matter. It does not influence the speed of your progess in the slightest.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Mayama

[Namutree]

This thread is bizarre, like honestly most people here do not seem to understand that the XP rewarded for kills in BG was meaningless. Only boss fights gave a big chunk of XP and that was bascialy part of the quest xp. All progress in BG was gated through quests. Grinding enemies for xp did not help you in any way because the amount of XP was so low. 

There really ought to be a dislike button. This is the most absurd nonsense I have ever read. Let's make one thing very clear: the kill xp in BG leads to many level ups. When I first killed a greater basalisk I got 7000 xp and went strait from level 2 to level 3. Killing sirens gets you 1000 xp per kill; in BG that's a lot. I justplayed through BG a month ago and skipped half the quests; I reached the level cap.

 

What's bizarre is how some one could even post something so ignorant.

[Mayama]

 

This thread is bizarre, like honestly most people here do not seem to understand that the XP rewarded for kills in BG was meaningless. Only boss fights gave a big chunk of XP and that was bascialy part of the quest xp. All progress in BG was gated through quests. Grinding enemies for xp did not help you in any way because the amount of XP was so low. 

There really ought to be a dislike button. This is the most absurd nonsense I have ever read. Let's make one thing very clear: the kill xp in BG leads to many level ups. When I first killed a greater basalisk I got 7000 xp and went strait from level 2 to level 3. Killing sirens gets you 1000 xp per kill; in BG that's a lot. I justplayed through BG a month ago and skipped half the quests; I reached the level cap.

 

What's bizarre is how some one could even post something so ignorant.

 

 

Yes because you skipped through tons of content with knowledge about enemies that you couldnt have on your first playthrough. You basicaly exploited the games balance problems like basiliks beeing complelty useless if you have a potion against petrification. Of course you can get a very high level in baldurs gate without doing quest, but thats easy in a game where you can exploit win any fight because of the ****ty combat AI and mages beeing completly not balanced.

 

About ignorant posts, you should look into a mirror. Most of your posts are rather self centric whines about how your oppinion matters more than everyone else. Thinking that your "vision" of the game is basicaly a rule book everyone has to follow and if they disagree they are just plain wrong. The fact that your oppinion on most things is the oppinion of a minority doesnt seem to get into your head. Also stuff like saying that the combat is hard or that you cant make a passive, no active skill, fighter only proofs that you didnt even really bother to play the game or actually read the spells that are on your disposal. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Mayama

[Namutree]

 

There really ought to be a dislike button. This is the most absurd nonsense I have ever read. Let's make one thing very clear: the kill xp in BG leads to many level ups. When I first killed a greater basalisk I got 7000 xp and went strait from level 2 to level 3. Killing sirens gets you 1000 xp per kill; in BG that's a lot. I justplayed through BG a month ago and skipped half the quests; I reached the level cap.

 

 

 

What's bizarre is how some one could even post something so ignorant.

 

 

Yes because you skipped through tons of content with knowledge about enemies that you couldnt have on your first playthrough. You basicaly exploited the games balance problems like basiliks beeing complelty useless if you have a potion against petrification. Of course you can get a very high level in baldurs gate without doing quest, but thats easy in a game where you can exploit win any fight because of the ****ty combat AI and mages beeing completly not balanced.

 

About ignorant posts, you should look into a mirror. Most of your posts are rather self centric whines about how your oppinion matters more than everyone else.

 

What you said was objectively not true and deserved exactly the treatment it got. I should also note that on my very first play through of BG I got multiple level ups while exploring. It was a central aspect of that game. Needing to do quests exclusively for xp is role-play killing if you are playing anything but a servant. 

 

Kill xp was very important in BG. To deny that is simply idiotic.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Namutree

[PrimeHydra]

This discussion is getting pretty heated. I think we all want the same thing here: A fun, rewarding game.

 

I'm as passionate as any of you are about making Pillars of Eternity the best freaking RPG ever made. That's my wish. I think that's what we all want. Whether combat rewards XP or not is not about who are the "psychopaths" and who are the "true role players".

 

For me, kill XP seemed like a natural fit that worked well in every game this project is trying to evoke. But I could be wrong. And the designer made the same admission (coming from the other side) in his quote that got buried earlier in the thread. Paraphrasing: They'll change it if it doesn't work. It's not that hard to change.

 

So let's quit antagonizing each other. We all cared enough about this project to pay no less than $70 in order to beta test. Let's keep it respectful. 

 

[[Quest Complete: Quell the Flames]]

+1000 XP

 

(I could have just clubbed you all instead, but I chose the high road. Your drops probably suck anyway.)

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

The combat should be there for challenge or for pacing, not for dopamine injections. 

Give me a break. Video games are all about dopamine injections. Whether it's romancing the elf, solving the trap puzzle or slaying the dragon. Reward is reward.

 

How true. 

[Fluffle]

(I could have just clubbed you all instead, but I chose the high road. Your drops probably suck anyway.)

 

Don't underestimate what a juicy fluffy marshmallow could drop as loot

[Mayama]

 

 

(I could have just clubbed you all instead, but I chose the high road. Your drops probably suck anyway.)

 

To bad, you lost your chance to get hold on a really fance coffee cup.

[Caladian]

Clearing zones to clear them, are the most annoying form of xp.  Should there be more ways of gaining xp?  heck yeah, if what a previous poster stated that there will be more ways to gain xp in the future, I'll by very happy. 

 

Grinding is boring, this stops the grind.  When I say boring, I would rather dig my heart out with a spoon, than grind.  I still do though, because the games that I am willing to deal with it, has so many other interesting things.

[Rillifane]

I have a question here. Quest-xp only works as intended if players play as the dev expect so that they can control the leveling pace. What if not? if the player simply spread their exploration without completing a quest, does that mean they might constantly overcome some random or set combats  without getting any xp rewards until they are "forced" to completing quests before they can going on? Wouldn't that somewhat limit the freedom of exploration?

[Namutree]

I have a question here. Quest-xp only works as intended if players play as the dev expect so that they can control the leveling pace. What if not? if the player simply spread their exploration without completing a quest, does that mean they might constantly overcome some random or set combats  without getting any xp rewards until they are "forced" to completing quests before they can going on? Wouldn't that somewhat limit the freedom of exploration?

That's exactly what would happen; I have heard however, that they will be adding additional xp for killing special monsters, or finding hidden ruins. If that is the case; there will be xp for general exploration which is good. If that isn't the case; poe is in serious trouble.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Namutree

[Stun]

Wouldn't killing for crafting be like killing trees for wood? Or animals for food?

No, because this is a video game. No one Crafts for basic survival in a video game. Instead, Gamers craft for a Power edge. If enchanting your sword with +20 Fire damage requires that you gather 15 infant scalps and 5 kitten tails, then put them in a pot of boiling nobleman blood, gamers will go on the same sort of psychotic murder sprees to gather these ingredients as they would for any XP rewards.

 

So no, the system in place in PoE does not solve the "grinding issue". Nor did it ever intend to, contrary to the repeated arguments being made on these XP threads.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Stun

[Volourn]

"D:OS contains many key elements of traditional CRPGs although it's certainly built with a modern approach."\

\

It's a fun game but it's not old skool. Old skool games don't RPS passing as a dialogue system.

 

 

"Look at the beta, right now you get XP for solving the oger quest once, if you would get kill xp from killing the oger people would solve the quest peacefully and than kill him, getting twice the xp they should get."

 

Not if the game is done properly.

 

 

"Yes because you skipped through tons of content with knowledge about enemies that you couldnt have on your first playthrough. You basicaly exploited the games balance problems like basiliks beeing complelty useless if you have a potion against petrification. Of course you can get a very high level in baldurs gate without doing quest, but thats easy in a game where you can exploit win any fight because of the ****ty combat AI and mages beeing completly not balanced."

 

\I didn't play BG like he did. In fact, I prefer doing quests and what not. But, don't get all mad and pouty because he proved your silly thesis wrong.

 

 

"[[Quest Complete: Quell the Flames]]

+1000 XP"

 

You wish it was that easy.  L0L

 

 

"That's exactly what would happen; I have heard however, that they will be adding additional xp for killing special monsters, or finding hidden ruins. If that is the case; there will be xp for general exploration which is good. If that isn't the case; poe is in serious trouble."

 

IF they do that most of my complaints would go away. I have plaeyd games that didn't give you xp for every monster killed (SRR as a recent example) and had no issue with it. But, xp is supposed to reward the player for overcoming whatever and that isn't happening in PE... yet.

[remiel005]

The only reason I don't like this system is because battles consume resources and nothing in the beta suggests that monsters will give out run or exciting items will counter balance the resource expenditure. While this lends to the stealthy people or those who don't want to battle everything on the map to optimize leveling, this actually punishes the people who want their gaming experience to be battle based.  So I feel like instead of rewarding people for fighting system it is a make people pay(in gaming resources/player time for town runs to rest)  if they want to fight everything system.  

 

I can see two things fixing this: one being quests people can to by submitting resources - /10 beetle shells or something like that or or two being a really in depth item creation and maintenance system.

 

Right now MOST things hardly pay out enough cp for you to reset your abilities and health, however, some things drop items worth several of your resources.  So if people are going to want to power game(which is what not giving xp out is to avoid, from my understanding) people are going to say "skip that lion, skip that lion, fight that lion so I can get to the feral druids".  I don't feel like every play style is possible to reward equally, so this game should stick to its roots and just give experience.  In paper and pencil games GMs can give out xp for creative use of player skills and abilities or even give out partial xp rewards to navigating monsters, which I don't see being possible to implement in a video game.

[cilantroll]

Clearing zones to clear them, are the most annoying form of xp.  Should there be more ways of gaining xp?  heck yeah, if what a previous poster stated that there will be more ways to gain xp in the future, I'll by very happy. 

 

Grinding is boring, this stops the grind.  When I say boring, I would rather dig my heart out with a spoon, than grind.  I still do though, because the games that I am willing to deal with it, has so many other interesting things.

 

I really don't understand this POV. Just because most ('all?') cRPGs give out XP for kills doesn't mean you're grinding.

 

In BG, I was certainly not map travelling everywhere or trying to sleep continuously in the wilderness for a random ambush just to get a middling amount of XP. There wasn't many places that respawned enemies, anyway...and even if there were, I wouldn't have.

 

I hear these arguments that only boss fights mattered in BG, but I couldn't disagree more. Yes, normal things I fought in the wilderness and exploring to get to bosses DID level me up--and ensured I was within a reasonable level to deal with these bosses. I'm sure there were a few times I was under or over-levelled for a boss encounter here and there, depending if I stuck to the main plot more, or explored side areas before going back to the story.

 

But I'd wager if I just ran from every hostile encounter and bee-lined it to bosses and main quests (as if I were doing a BG speed run), bosses would be very difficult indeed, because I would be far too weak without having killed the unimportant enemies along the way. It never felt grindy to me, but natural.

 

I posted further detailed thoughts below (lost to discussion because it was invisible so long before mod approval as a new poster):

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67060-no-experience-from-combat/?p=1488567

[Doppelschwert]

I will ask again, because I'm somehow ignored the first time when I try to bring up relevant points to a discussion... <_<

 

What happens when you don't get the quest about the ogre from the farmer but instead just go to the ogre on your own?

For the ogre quest, you get exp for entering the cave as well as for dealing with the ogre. I don't think the area is magically locked up as long as you don't have the quest, so what happens if you go there without having the quest?

 

Do you get the experience you would have received witht the quest? Is the quest started? If you don't get experience for walking there, is the exp retroactively rewarded when you turn in the quest at the farmer?

 

You're all discussing whether there is exploration and kill exp in the game. Someone should check if it isn't already there in some parts.

[Stun]

I will ask again, because I'm somehow ignored the first time when I try to bring up relevant points to a discussion... <_<

 

What happens when you don't get the quest about the ogre from the farmer but instead just go to the ogre on your own?

Nothing happens. You can kill the Ogre and he drops his head and some blood. If you're role playing a sicko packrat, you will have a valid RP reason for collecting that ogre head and placing it in your pack (you're a sicko pack rat!). If not, well, good luck finding a justification for your Meta-gaming/ESP. And that's it. You can then go meet the farmer for the first time, listen to his plight, and what he wants you to do, Then in that same dialogue you can show him the ogre's head. If you're lucky, you get XP for that. Welcome to fetch-quests 101.

 

But make no mistake about this: If you go to that wilderness map before talking to anyone in the village, EVERYTHING you do there is unrewarded. No XP for exploration. No XP for clearing that giant cult dungeon. No XP for using your Might skill to force open the dungeon's entrance. No XP for slaughtering all the beetles and spiders that "block your path" to the ogre cave. No XP for entering that cave. No XP for dealing with the enemy party up north (even if you do it peacefully, which is an option). No XP for successfully Athletic-ing the Dragon Egg down from the ledge. NADA.

 

Is this supposed to be anyone's idea of proper RPG design?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

 

But make no mistake about this: If you go to that wilderness map before talking to anyone in the village, EVERYTHING you do there is unrewarded. No XP for exploration. No XP for clearing that giant cult dungeon. No XP for using your Might skill to force open the dungeon's entrance. No XP for slaughtering all the beetles and spiders that "block your path" to the ogre cave. No XP for entering that cave. No XP for dealing with the enemy party (even if you do it peacefully, which is an option). No XP for successfully Athletic-ing the Dragon Egg down from the ledge. NADA.

 

Is this supposed to be anyone's idea of proper RPG design?

 

I'm hoping they will give you xp in the future for finding that dungeon entrance and getting it open, and dealing with that enemy party. If Obsidian leaves it as it is though poe is screwed.

 

I feel like broken record.

[Helm]

I will ask again, because I'm somehow ignored the first time when I try to bring up relevant points to a discussion... <_<

 

What happens when you don't get the quest about the ogre from the farmer but instead just go to the ogre on your own?

For the ogre quest, you get exp for entering the cave as well as for dealing with the ogre. I don't think the area is magically locked up as long as you don't have the quest, so what happens if you go there without having the quest?

 

Do you get the experience you would have received witht the quest? Is the quest started? If you don't get experience for walking there, is the exp retroactively rewarded when you turn in the quest at the farmer?

 

You're all discussing whether there is exploration and kill exp in the game. Someone should check if it isn't already there in some parts.

I just tried it (goes fast, because you can avoid all of the combat, lol)

 

I went to the ogre cave without the quest. I found the cave and got 0 XP. I talked to the Ogre and told him to leave and got 0 XP. Then I went back to Rumbold and told him the Ogre is gone and got.... 0 XP. Nothing, nada, zilch. Not even a cute little piglet. lol

 

This XP system is so ridiculously stupid and broken. What the hell were they thinking.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[Answermancer]

 

I will ask again, because I'm somehow ignored the first time when I try to bring up relevant points to a discussion... <_<

 

What happens when you don't get the quest about the ogre from the farmer but instead just go to the ogre on your own?

For the ogre quest, you get exp for entering the cave as well as for dealing with the ogre. I don't think the area is magically locked up as long as you don't have the quest, so what happens if you go there without having the quest?

 

Do you get the experience you would have received witht the quest? Is the quest started? If you don't get experience for walking there, is the exp retroactively rewarded when you turn in the quest at the farmer?

 

You're all discussing whether there is exploration and kill exp in the game. Someone should check if it isn't already there in some parts.

I just tried it (goes fast, because you can avoid all of the combat, lol)

 

I went to the ogre cave without the quest. I found the cave and got 0 XP. I talked to the Ogre and told him to leave and got 0 XP. Then I went back to Rumbold and told him the Ogre is gone and got.... 0 XP. Nothing, nada, zilch. Not even a cute little piglet. lol

 

This XP system is ridiculously stupid and broken. What the hell were they thinking.

 

 

Well that certainly seems like a bug/failed implementation of the quest so I wouldn't worry too much about that scenario (but I would report it as a bug).

 

You should at least get credit and reward for the quest.

[Doppelschwert]

Ok, I'll agree to the complaints then. I think the system would work if there is hand placed exp for finding places, managing tasks like opening the dungeon and for beating difficult foes, quest tied or not. If this is not the case, then the system sucks, yeah.

[Namutree]

Ok, I'll agree to the complaints then. I think the system would work if there is hand placed exp for finding places, managing tasks like opening the dungeon and for beating difficult foes, quest tied or not. If this is not the case, then the system sucks, yeah.

I've heard that there will be xp in the future for stuff like that. If not well; you already know what that will mean.

[sparklecat]

I'm not voting because I don't want "combat XP" or "no combat XP."  I want "engaging in otherwise pointless combat does not end up being the optimal choice because of how XP is handled, thus avoiding metagaming and out of character behaviour on my part."

[Infinitron]

 

I will ask again, because I'm somehow ignored the first time when I try to bring up relevant points to a discussion... <_<

 

What happens when you don't get the quest about the ogre from the farmer but instead just go to the ogre on your own?

Nothing happens. You can kill the Ogre and he drops his head and some blood. If you're role playing a sicko packrat, you will have a valid RP reason for collecting that ogre head and placing it in your pack (you're a sicko pack rat!). If not, well, good luck finding a justification for your Meta-gaming/ESP. And that's it. You can then go meet the farmer for the first time, listen to his plight, and what he wants you to do, Then in that same dialogue you can show him the ogre's head. If you're lucky, you get XP for that. Welcome to fetch-quests 101.

 

But make no mistake about this: If you go to that wilderness map before talking to anyone in the village, EVERYTHING you do there is unrewarded. No XP for exploration. No XP for clearing that giant cult dungeon. No XP for using your Might skill to force open the dungeon's entrance. No XP for slaughtering all the beetles and spiders that "block your path" to the ogre cave. No XP for entering that cave. No XP for dealing with the enemy party up north (even if you do it peacefully, which is an option). No XP for successfully Athletic-ing the Dragon Egg down from the ledge. NADA.

 

Is this supposed to be anyone's idea of proper RPG design?

 

 

"I am absolutely sure this is not a bug or unfinished content in a beta, and that the final game will work in the exact same way. Hear me roar!"

Edited August 22, 2014 by Infinitron

[Doppelschwert]

I also think they'll change it in due time for release, so I'm not really concerned by this. Still, I can understand that people are pissed off.