The Official Romance Thread

[Lillyhime]

@Kimaka

This is what I was hoping for too. I'm a romantic at heart, but I do enjoy a nice troubled romance. I really liked both the Anders and Fenris (if a mage) romances in DA2 because Anders is crazy. He has two personalities in him and one of them doesn't want you two to be together, and Fenris hates mages.. so. Yeah. Both I feel could have been made better, but thats pretty much how I feel about the whole game. 

 

I liked the one shot sorta romantic plot you could have with Benny in New Vegas (He tried to kill you, and then you can seduce him later) I totally have a mod that lets you save him now. I just haven't gotten back to the Strip since I installed it. 

 

I'd be fine even with a one sided romance, where the PC is left broken hearted or something. or has to kill his/her would be love interest cause they betrayed them.

[Lephys]

@Stun,

 

If your "case and point" for the entirety of romance-advocating minds is going to be picking apart one single post from Bruce, I'm not sure how to take you seriously anymore.

 

Also, your idea of shooting down the logic of something is mind-boggling. Most of my points regarding this have been "not necessarily"s, and yet somehow you've shot them all down with basically "Feh, I wouldn't bet on it" mentality. That's what I fail to comprehend. You're free to decide what you will, but I don't know that to be shooting anything down.

 

I'm also questioning your comprehension of the brainstorming/formulative process, as you seem to want everything to be proven, or it's just a no-go.

[Stun]

@Stun,

 

If your "case and point" for the entirety of romance-advocating minds is going to be picking apart one single post from Bruce, I'm not sure how to take you seriously anymore.

Show me examples that other people have given.

[Lephys]

Show me examples that other people have given.

I think there's been enough repeating on this topic. The forum has a search function.

 

And yes, if an example falls in the forest and Stun isn't around to hear it, it still makes a sound.

[PieSnatcher]

My point of view:

 

Short Version: I have found romances have enjoyable aspects to them, and I would like to see improved implementations in the future.

 

Long Version: I have found that romances in BG2, Torment, KOTORs, Jade Empire, and the Mass Effect series have been enjoyable. Each has its own set of caveats (needy Anomen/aerie for BG2, and over-sexualization in Mass Effect (IMO)), but most of those complaints have been mentioned and I actually agree with. But here are some things that I liked:

- In BG2 I liked the part where you needed to save the LI at a certain point late in SoA. Save the day and all. And it was fun to decide what was most important for the character at the end of ToB.

- In Torment I liked the implications of the NO's past and potential romances, and the fate that befalls them as a consequence of their reciprocated affections. Probably the best romance in what I've played. Admittedly the actual "romance" part of it was light.

- In KOTOR I did like the affect Bastila's had in the Starforge encounter.

- In Jade Empire I didn't find anything particularly amazing or annoying, but it was an option for flavor. Humorous dialog as well.

- Mass Effect, despite over emphasizing the sexual encounter and turning the Normandy into Cmdr Shep's Awkward Loveboat of Drama, did... well that didn't start well but I like the characters and thought many were at least worth trying to explore a romantic subplot with in the context of galactic peril.

 

I'm not presenting an air-tight/dramatic argument for romance in a future PoE game. I simply find they can be enjoyable despite their flaws. I like what they have the potential to bring to the table. I don't want to be titillated. I don't want a solid combat system to be sacrificed for its sake. I don't want romance to be obligatory. Nor do I want romance to be the central pillar of the game (I'd play a billion romance-less games like PoE before playing a "dating sim", or an RCGM. Which is a thing, apparently).

I simply would like Obsidian to try implementing improved romances in PoE games in the future, should resources and their desire to do so permit. I want them to be interesting, engaging, enjoyable, well-implemented, and well-written. Even if they aren't perfect they wouldn't necessarily ruin the game for me. And if they are never implemented? I'll probably just have to really enjoy an excellent RPG with a great story and gameplay.

[Lephys]

Romance is like one crayon amid your whole box -- you don't HAVE to use every single crayon in the box on every single piece of artwork, but there's no reason to completely exclude certain crayons just because the other kids suck at color theory.

[Stun]

 

Show me examples that other people have given.

I think there's been enough repeating on this topic. The forum has a search function.

 

Done. Like I said in my last post, your side has either suggested things that have already been done terribly in the past, or else they've suggested really annoying, overly constrictive, stuff that most people wouldn't want regardless of whether it's tied to a romance (like bruce's example of the LI never being able to leave the party)

 

 

 

Romance is like one crayon amid your whole box -- you don't HAVE to use every single crayon in the box on every single piece of artwork, but there's no reason to completely exclude certain crayons just because the other kids suck at color theory.

Yay! Metaphors!

 

No. Romance is like that annoying ball point pen sitting on your desk that always stops working when you're in the middle of trying to write with it.

 

Best that you just toss it in the trash so you don't keep accidently grabbing it when you need to write something.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

A) It's a simile, as is your arbitrary, baseless "no, THIS" counter-comparison.

 

B)... Oh, there isn't a B. Hmmm...

[PieSnatcher]

Silly Lephys, can't you see you are objectively wrong in your opinions?

 

Romance is like that annoying ball point pen sitting on your desk that always stops working when you're in the middle of trying to write with it. Best that you just toss it in the trash so you don't keep accidently grabbing it when you need to write something.

Or that pen that you only realize burst when the ink is already dripping down your finger. Worst pen. Ever.

Edited August 14, 2014 by PieSnatcher

[Lephys]

Clearly. Also, PieSnatcher... you said the forbidden "P" word (*COUGHpotentialCOUGH*). There's no such thing. You can't use something poorly, AND be able to use it well. If someone uses something poorly, it's because it can only be used poorly. Obviously.

 

You can't just have like... one glass of wine, and enjoy your evening. Clearly, if you use wine, you end up black-out drunk, with a headache, in Malasia, and you've signed over everything you owned to some guy on a napkin. And your kidneys are gone. Alcohol = all that.

 

Romance is the same way, obviously. The second you try to put romance into your game's design, you BECOME Bioware's writing team. *nods* o_o. It's crazy.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Lephys

[Stun]

Clearly. Also, PieSnatcher... you said the forbidden "P" word

Pen?

 

 

There's no such thing.

Well, there isn't. Potential is a mental concept that cannot exist in the absence of any sort of suggestive proof.

 

You can walk up to anyone in the country and tell them that they have the potential to become the president of the United States. But such statements are meaningless unless that person shows some signs that he/she is heading in that direction.

 

Problem: We've got no such proof to point to with video game romances. They suck just as badly in today's games as they did in games that came out 2 decades ago. It's far more accurate to say that Romances have the potential to ruin the RPG genre.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

False. If a rock is lying on the ground, it has the potential to be picked up and thrown by anything that can pick up and throw it, as well as the potential to be used in countless other ways. Before anyone ever took a rock and shaped it into a tool, it already had the potential for that to occur. Cavemen didn't go "Welp, obviously no one's made any tools with these rocks yet. They're all just really heavy, and irregularly shaped, and hard to stack. Obviously, rocks are bad, and shouldn't be used."

 

Luckily, someone contemplated the potential of the rocks, and figured out ways for them to be crazy useful.

 

*Edited for concision*

 

I get it, Stun. Until I can prove to you that the earth is spherical, it's CLEARLY flat.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Lephys

[Namutree]

They suck just as badly in today's games as they did in games that came out 2 decades ago.

 

I disagree; they've gotten worse.

[Stun]

False. If a rock is lying on the ground, it has the potential to be picked up and thrown by anything that can pick up and throw it, as well as the potential to be used in countless other ways. Before anyone ever took a rock and shaped it into a tool, it already had the potential for that to occur. Cavemen didn't go "Welp, obviously no one's made any tools with these rocks yet. They're all just really heavy, and irregularly shaped, and hard to stack. Obviously, rocks are bad, and shouldn't be used."

Faulty analogy. You're not describing the rock's potential, you're describing civilization's potential. Romance is not a tool. You cannot do anything with a romance but present it as it is. And therein lies the problem with your analogy. Romances suck. They're like turds. You can Sugar coat them, or gold-plate them, but they'll still be turds.

 

And I'll say it again. Romance has a far bigger potential to ruin the RPG genre. It has already evolved enough to ruin Bioware games.

[Lephys]

Well, your opinion is crystal clear, at least.

[BruceVC]

 

Show me examples that other people have given.

I think there's been enough repeating on this topic. The forum has a search function.

 

And yes, if an example falls in the forest and Stun isn't around to hear it, it still makes a sound.

 

@ Stun

 

Lephys is right on this point, there are dozens of examples of how Romance can be implemented. But you need to do your own searching, you can't  expect people to do this for you.

 

Also my example of decent Romance definitely doesn't represent all the possible ideas so I don't want you to think my ideas are the only way Romance can be implemented in a meaningful way

 

"“If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is around to hear it, and it hits a mime, does anyone care?” - Gary Larson  

[BruceVC]

My point of view:

 

Short Version: I have found romances have enjoyable aspects to them, and I would like to see improved implementations in the future.

 

Long Version: I have found that romances in BG2, Torment, KOTORs, Jade Empire, and the Mass Effect series have been enjoyable. Each has its own set of caveats (needy Anomen/aerie for BG2, and over-sexualization in Mass Effect (IMO)), but most of those complaints have been mentioned and I actually agree with. But here are some things that I liked:

- In BG2 I liked the part where you needed to save the LI at a certain point late in SoA. Save the day and all. And it was fun to decide what was most important for the character at the end of ToB.

- In Torment I liked the implications of the NO's past and potential romances, and the fate that befalls them as a consequence of their reciprocated affections. Probably the best romance in what I've played. Admittedly the actual "romance" part of it was light.

- In KOTOR I did like the affect Bastila's had in the Starforge encounter.

- In Jade Empire I didn't find anything particularly amazing or annoying, but it was an option for flavor. Humorous dialog as well.

- Mass Effect, despite over emphasizing the sexual encounter and turning the Normandy into Cmdr Shep's Awkward Loveboat of Drama, did... well that didn't start well but I like the characters and thought many were at least worth trying to explore a romantic subplot with in the context of galactic peril.

 

I'm not presenting an air-tight/dramatic argument for romance in a future PoE game. I simply find they can be enjoyable despite their flaws. I like what they have the potential to bring to the table. I don't want to be titillated. I don't want a solid combat system to be sacrificed for its sake. I don't want romance to be obligatory. Nor do I want romance to be the central pillar of the game (I'd play a billion romance-less games like PoE before playing a "dating sim", or an RCGM. Which is a thing, apparently).

I simply would like Obsidian to try implementing improved romances in PoE games in the future, should resources and their desire to do so permit. I want them to be interesting, engaging, enjoyable, well-implemented, and well-written. Even if they aren't perfect they wouldn't necessarily ruin the game for me. And if they are never implemented? I'll probably just have to really enjoy an excellent RPG with a great story and gameplay.

 

This is a good post, you don't make enough detailed posts on this topic. I hope this will change, I like your insights

 

Also I like your forum name, its cute. What is the history to "PieSnatcher"  ?

[BruceVC]

 

False. If a rock is lying on the ground, it has the potential to be picked up and thrown by anything that can pick up and throw it, as well as the potential to be used in countless other ways. Before anyone ever took a rock and shaped it into a tool, it already had the potential for that to occur. Cavemen didn't go "Welp, obviously no one's made any tools with these rocks yet. They're all just really heavy, and irregularly shaped, and hard to stack. Obviously, rocks are bad, and shouldn't be used."

Faulty analogy. You're not describing the rock's potential, you're describing civilization's potential. Romance is not a tool. You cannot do anything with a romance but present it as it is. And therein lies the problem with your analogy. Romances suck. They're like turds. You can Sugar coat them, or gold-plate them, but they'll still be turds.

 

And I'll say it again. Romance has a far bigger potential to ruin the RPG genre. It has already evolved enough to ruin Bioware games.

 

 

Sorry to criticize your opinion again but the suggestion that something optional that is a small part of the overall RPG experience in any game could somehow " ruin the RPG genre " is ludicrous and is an egregious exaggeration ....and you know it is

Edited August 14, 2014 by BruceVC

[Lillyhime]

 

False. If a rock is lying on the ground, it has the potential to be picked up and thrown by anything that can pick up and throw it, as well as the potential to be used in countless other ways. Before anyone ever took a rock and shaped it into a tool, it already had the potential for that to occur. Cavemen didn't go "Welp, obviously no one's made any tools with these rocks yet. They're all just really heavy, and irregularly shaped, and hard to stack. Obviously, rocks are bad, and shouldn't be used."

Faulty analogy. You're not describing the rock's potential, you're describing civilization's potential. Romance is not a tool. You cannot do anything with a romance but present it as it is. And therein lies the problem with your analogy. Romances suck. They're like turds. You can Sugar coat them, or gold-plate them, but they'll still be turds.

 

And I'll say it again. Romance has a far bigger potential to ruin the RPG genre. It has already evolved enough to ruin Bioware games.

 

 

A lot of things can potentially ruin a game.

 

Combat, stats, story, presentation, graphics. Heck, even voice acting. Maybe we should ask Obsidian to remove any and everything that can has the potential to ruin PoE? Which you know, would be everything. 

 

Romance is generally such a small part of the equation that it alone cannot ruin a game all by itself. If it some how manages to ruin it for you, then I think that's likely your problem, not ours. 

[Namutree]

 

 

Sorry to criticize your opinion again but the suggestion that something optional that is a small part of the overall RPG experience in any game could somehow " ruin the RPG genre " is ludicrous and is an egregious exaggeration ....and you know it is

 

It may be a small part, but it still takes a lot of development time. It has certainly played a role in the decline of in-depth mechanics in Bioware games. Also, in ME:2/ME:3 it could get in the way of role-playing to a severe degree. 

 

I think a major issue is how many romances Bioware makes per game today. Back when it was 3-4 romances per game it wasn't a high price, but now Bioware seems content to spam them. Not only does this lead to a decline in romance quality, but it takes away from the mechanics to an extent that is very detrimental to the game.

 

If Bioware would go back to 3-4 romances per game; I think that'd be an improvement. I don't really think pro-mancers are much better off with 10 romances instead of 3-4. I'll put it like this:

 

A few romances: Pro-mancers  Anti-mancers

 

A spam of lower quality romances: Pro-mancers  Anti-mancers

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Sorry to criticize your opinion again but the suggestion that something optional that is a small part of the overall RPG experience in any game could somehow " ruin the RPG genre " is ludicrous and is an egregious exaggeration ....and you know it is

 

It may be a small part, but it still takes a lot of development time. It has certainly played a role in the decline of in-depth mechanics in Bioware games. Also, in ME:2/ME:3 it could get in the way of role-playing to a severe degree. 

 

I think a major issue is how many romances Bioware makes per game today. Back when it was 3-4 romances per game it wasn't a high price, but now Bioware seems content to spam them. Not only does this lead to a decline in romance quality, but it takes away from the mechanics to an extent that is very detrimental to the game.

 

If Bioware would go back to 3-4 romances per game; I think that'd be an improvement. I don't really think pro-mancers are much better off with 10 romances instead of 3-4. I'll put it like this:

 

A few romances: Pro-mancers  Anti-mancers

 

A spam of lower quality romances: Pro-mancers  Anti-mancers

 

 

So are you saying that in a game like ME with all the dozens of hours of   exploration, questing, planet mining,  combat and non- Romance dialogue somehow the few optional Romance dialogue options is greater than all  these other features? Because Stuns point is Romance has "ruined" Bioware games as if Romance is somehow become the most important or prevalent component in Bioware games. And the reality is far from what he is suggestion just based on other features outside of Romance?

 

My point is lets not exaggerate because a particular person is trying to emphasize there dislike of Romance

[Namutree]

 

 

 

So are you saying that in a game like ME with all the dozens of hours of   exploration, questing, planet mining,  combat and non- Romance dialogue somehow the few optional Romance dialogue options is greater than all  these other features? Because Stuns point is Romance has "ruined" Bioware games as if Romance is somehow become the most important or prevalent component in Bioware games. And the reality is far from what he is suggestion just based on other features outside of Romance?

 

My point is lets not exaggerate because a particular person is trying to emphasize there dislike of Romance

 

In Mass Effect 1 it wasn't an issue, but that game had only 3 romances. You know, the amount I recommended.

 

Mass Effect 2/3 however, had a lot more. In ME2/ME3 exploration of worlds wasn't included. Bioware decided pro-mancers wouldn't be satisfied with 3-4 romances, but instead needed more for some reason. If exploration had to go for the sake of romance spam; oh well.

 

Mass Effect 2/3 had some major failings that I feel wouldn't exist if Bioware hadn't spent so much time and resources on romances. I think Mass Effect 1 handled romances well, but the sequels went too far. 

Edited August 14, 2014 by Namutree

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

So are you saying that in a game like ME with all the dozens of hours of   exploration, questing, planet mining,  combat and non- Romance dialogue somehow the few optional Romance dialogue options is greater than all  these other features? Because Stuns point is Romance has "ruined" Bioware games as if Romance is somehow become the most important or prevalent component in Bioware games. And the reality is far from what he is suggestion just based on other features outside of Romance?

 

My point is lets not exaggerate because a particular person is trying to emphasize there dislike of Romance

 

In Mass Effect 1 it wasn't an issue, but that game had only 3 romances. You know, the amount I recommended.

 

Mass Effect 2/3 however, had a lot more. In ME2/ME3 exploration of worlds wasn't included. Bioware decided pro-mancers wouldn't be satisfied with 3-4 romances, but instead needed more for some reason. If exploration had to go for the sake of romance spam; oh well.

 

Mass Effect 2/3 had some major failings that I feel wouldn't exist if Bioware hadn't spent so much time and resources on romances. I think Mass Effect 1 handled romances well, but the sequels went too far. 

 

 

Okay I respect your opinion even if we don't agree on this one, in ME2/3 I only had  one Romance arc and that probably only represented about 3% of the total time I spent playing the game compared to everything else I did. But we all have different experiences

[Chairchucker]

I think one of the major issues I have with the way romances have been done - and are likely to continue to be done - is that romance is an aspect of life on which there are likely to be a larger amount of diverse views as to the 'right way' to do it, yet there's more or less always only one way to romance someone.

 

Let's take for example the Mass Effects games. Now, if, hypothetically, my Femshep had wanted to romance someone - well I was already in trouble because I let Kaiden die because Ash was my BFF, and my Femshep was only into human males so that ruled Liara out, but let's pretend for a moment it had been Kaiden who had lived. The only two options in the romance conversation were basically 'ugh no I don't fancy you Kaiden' or 'take me now you biotic stallion!' But maybe I don't care for either of those options. Maybe Femshep is a classy lady and Kaiden needs to woo me first, maybe take me to a museum or something, had you thought of that Kaiden, huh, had you?!? If you like it, maybe you should try putting a ring on it!

 

So for someone who is totes down for a quickie in the captain's quarters and that's the end of that relationship, that might seem like an OK romance, but not for my Femshep, no Sir. I'm not breaking Space Corps directives on fraternisation for a casual fling.

 

The problem is, different people have different opinions of how they want their character to act in a relationship, and probably stronger opinions than they have of other decisions their characters might make, and thus romances are gonna end up sucking for a large percentage of players unless an even larger amount of resources are pumped into them.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Chairchucker

[Stun]

Sorry to criticize your opinion again but the suggestion that something optional that is a small part of the overall RPG experience in any game could somehow " ruin the RPG genre "

A small part of the RPG experience? We're getting this from you?!

 

You judge games by their romances, Bruce. If Romances were really a "small part of the RPG experience", then by all means, Admit that they're not important. AGREE with me that they're little more than window dressing - Gimmicks that add flavor to a game and little else.

 

Of course you won't do any such thing, because in your mind, Romances have become a fundamental, almost vital, part of an RPG experience. And you're not alone. That's the problem I'm talking about. RPGs are not soap operas. But look at Bioware. Their games are interative soap operas. One need only visit BSN for 5 minutes to see the truth behind my words. On the Bioware forums, RPG stands for Romance Player Games in the minds of it its 3 million+ members. There is no way anyone can play a modern day Bioware game and claim that Romance is 'a small part of the RPG experience'.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Stun