IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 BrokenMask: I really understand where you coming from, having argued all those points for years, it seems, literally. The big question is: How to make a computer RPG with an entire party (already more game-y, and less RPG-y) feel rewarding enough without kill xp? And as it seems, it will take a very clever per-obstacle solution - per encounter (which actually may mean one single baddie - in such cases pure kill xp). Question #2: (which I realized today): Is it worth it? Is it better? This isn't Dishonored, after all. I have no magic solutions, but I do know that kill xp worked and that per encounter probably could work too. 3 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Sarex Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Wait, which problems are you talking about? <_< I don't think they can be balanced since I'm talking about metagame stuff. Like, the instinct to go out of your way to kill all enemies, doing things like leveling up to get one more skill level to solve the quest/dungeon differently, etc, stuff that doesn't necessarily make rp wise sense. But removing the choice to do that is not the way to go either. Like Indra said, you are essentially railroading the player in to a specific style of game play. 3 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I have to agree with Stun. I was okay with objective xp, but I was assuming "objective" wasn't the same as quest. I just fought like, six lions at once and felt the battle was fairly challenging. I would have liked some xp or something; instead I got barely anything. [...] If this is how they're gonna do objective xp; I'd rather kill xp come back. Having been more or less in the objective xp camp, I'm having second thoughts now, after five hours of beta. [...] I must say this: either what's counting as "objectives" need a big overhaul (it must be segmented into encounters and small segments - just quest xp is not enough for me to get that IE-inspired feel), or I'll join the xp-per-kill-camp with a vengeance. Hmm, yeah, now that I finished crossing and village areas(and got to the dungeon in the lion area), while I still don't think kill exp is only way to fix this, I admit that they give exp too rarely. [...] I don't know if this is because years of conditioning in rpgs to have love for the exp pop up/sound effect or what, but yeah, I still like the demo, but it does feel "off" a lot. Yes... Break free of your shackles, let the XP flow through you. Give into your feelings, you know it is true. No one can resist the POWER of the dark side. Hehehehehehehe Epic! 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Silent Winter Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) ^technically you can do that with quest-xp though - go out of your way to get to the quest-givers of the world and then doing whatever they tell you to do since that's the only way to get xp: "Adventurers, eh? I'm in need of someone to slaughter Farmer Brown's pigs and blame it on an ogre. I'll pay 200cp (and 2000xp)" "Sir, yes sir" Edited August 19, 2014 by Silent Winter 2 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form*
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time. 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
BrokenMask Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Hmm. Well, if Obsidian either fails to improve the objective exp system or switches back to kill exp, I guess I'll just have to hope that Torment: Tides of Numenera will actually succeed in innovating combat/quest thing <_< I mean, aren't they attempt to do what they call "crisis" which are situations that can be solved in multiple ways, including combat, talking, skills/puzzles, etc? Perhaps it will do better job with no kill exp thing. Unless they decide to change one of most notable things about P&P game 1
Silent Winter Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Tried twice to edit to put the relevant quote I was referring to but it didn't seem to stick - oh well, should be obvious. Thread's moving too quick for a simple carat ^ to suffice _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form*
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Hmm. Well, if Obsidian either fails to improve the objective exp system or switches back to kill exp, I guess I'll just have to hope that Torment: Tides of Numenera will actually succeed in innovating combat/quest thing <_< I mean, aren't they attempt to do what they call "crisis" which are situations that can be solved in multiple ways, including combat, talking, skills/puzzles, etc? Perhaps it will do better job with no kill exp thing. Unless they decide to change one of most notable things about P&P game I have extremely high hopes for T:ToN, and for the very same reasons as you! Some of my all-time favourite devs are working on it. The same goes for PoE too, so perhaps we get two kinds of CRPGs, both which are excellent in their own right? 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Gfted1 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Ug, you guys have demotivated me to play the game and I haven't even installed the Beta yet. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Silent Winter Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time. That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). 3 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form*
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Gfted1: We are your guinea pigs, and we are happy to serve! 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Immortalis Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 Torment will be a very different game.. many people in our camp including Stun can see Tormet games working without kill xp.. They aren't combat focused games.. different beast entirely. 3 From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.
Tale Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Big fan of objective XP, but always felt that should include finding things and optional encounters as objectives. Based on what you guys are saying, I can only hope it'll be in release, because it doesn't sound like it's in beta. 3 "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time. That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). Edited August 19, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Helm Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Hmm. Well, if Obsidian either fails to improve the objective exp system or switches back to kill exp, I guess I'll just have to hope that Torment: Tides of Numenera will actually succeed in innovating combat/quest thing <_< I mean, aren't they attempt to do what they call "crisis" which are situations that can be solved in multiple ways, including combat, talking, skills/puzzles, etc? Perhaps it will do better job with no kill exp thing. Unless they decide to change one of most notable things about P&P gameTorment doesn't have trash mobs, and there is no emphasis on combat. Torment is driven solely by the narrative, so quest only XP will work absolutely fine. Actually, that is the only system that even makes sense for that type of game. 1 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Immortalis Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 Hmm. Well, if Obsidian either fails to improve the objective exp system or switches back to kill exp, I guess I'll just have to hope that Torment: Tides of Numenera will actually succeed in innovating combat/quest thing <_< I mean, aren't they attempt to do what they call "crisis" which are situations that can be solved in multiple ways, including combat, talking, skills/puzzles, etc? Perhaps it will do better job with no kill exp thing. Unless they decide to change one of most notable things about P&P gameTorment doesn't have trash mobs, and there is no emphasis on combat. Torment is driven solely by the narrative, so quest only XP will work absolutely fine. Actually, that is the only system that even makes sense for that type of game. I just said that.. jerk. LOL 1 From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.
BrokenMask Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Big fan of objective XP, but always felt that should include finding things and optional encounters as objectives. Based on what you guys are saying, I can only hope it'll be in release, because it doesn't sound like it's in beta. If we are lucky, it might eventually be in beta. At least I hope so
Helm Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time.That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). Yeah, Sawyer was quite vague, so it is understandable that many people understood him unless they analyzed every single word of what he wrote. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Helm Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Hmm. Well, if Obsidian either fails to improve the objective exp system or switches back to kill exp, I guess I'll just have to hope that Torment: Tides of Numenera will actually succeed in innovating combat/quest thing <_< I mean, aren't they attempt to do what they call "crisis" which are situations that can be solved in multiple ways, including combat, talking, skills/puzzles, etc? Perhaps it will do better job with no kill exp thing. Unless they decide to change one of most notable things about P&P gameTorment doesn't have trash mobs, and there is no emphasis on combat. Torment is driven solely by the narrative, so quest only XP will work absolutely fine. Actually, that is the only system that even makes sense for that type of game. I just said that.. jerk. LOL Oh, sorry. I missed it. This thread is moving too fast. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Helm Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time. That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). I bet the hay fever trait would come in handy there. 1 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Namutree Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). Just add per discovery & per storybook event. Even if they didn't give a lot of xp it would make a huge difference. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.
Sarex Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). Poor Stun, he poured his heart out trying to explain the same thing throughout 25 pages now, not counting different threads, but there is no accounting for people being stubborn. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
Immortalis Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). Poor Stun, he poured his heart out trying to explain the same thing throughout 25 pages now, not counting different threads, but there is no accounting for people being stubborn. I'v notice this thread has turned into a bunch of people shaking hands and nodding heads in stark agreement.. lol.. 1 From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.
Tale Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 New thread is up. This one has passed the 500 mark. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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