Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Walsingham]

Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it?

 

I for one would like to know where all the thousands of peace protesters who were clogging up London for Iraq are now.

[Flouride]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/06/04/hunting-for-paid-russian-trolls-in-the-washington-post-comments-section/

 

Just gonna leave that in here...

[Zoraptor]

That WP article is pretty much exactly what I would realistically expect, that the organised 'trolling' was pretty much unsubstantiated accusations and actually pretty typical for any emotive topic- unsurprising that those making the accusations lack any real intellectual rigour, even here it was a go to accusation that anyone with an alternative view had to be Russian, and paid. Good to see an actual mention that the US had its own 'troll army' as well, though I'm sure the usual suspects will consider that to be A Completely Different Situation. Or ignore it, as their employment by the CIA precludes them from commenting, hoho.

 

I for one would like to know where all the thousands of peace protesters who were clogging up London for Iraq are now.

 

That's hardly an equivalent situation. Britain was involved directly in Iraq and eventually took a leading role in the invasion, it's at best involved peripherally in Ukraine or Syria. A million protesters on the streets of London was ultimately unsuccessful as being Bush's Poodle was far more important to Blair than the will of his people, but at least in theory those million people could have made a difference. A million protesters in London trying to 'fix' Syria or Ukraine on the other hand, aren't even theoretically likely to have any effect on Assad, Poroshenko or Pushilin, and you'd have to presume that those protesters probably don't want Britain to invade either place- which there's no prospect of in any case.

 

Still, I for one would like to know where all those people who were appalled at the potential of Benghazi being attacked are now, and why they aren't so appalled at the indiscriminate shelling, use of airpower and MLRS on Slovyansk. Clearly, a no fly zone and destruction of the Ukrainian army's heavy weaponry is required to Save Civilians!

[Walsingham]

 

I for one would like to know where all the thousands of peace protesters who were clogging up London for Iraq are now.

 

That's hardly an equivalent situation. Britain was involved directly in Iraq and eventually took a leading role in the invasion, it's at best involved peripherally in Ukraine or Syria. A million protesters on the streets of London was ultimately unsuccessful as being Bush's Poodle was far more important to Blair than the will of his people, but at least in theory those million people could have made a difference.

 

Actually that's PRECISELY my point. They weren't peace protesters. They were just anti-Bush protesters.

 

And the idea that HM Government can only promote peace by leaving everything alone is so vapid I'm genuinely surprised to see you even suggest it!

[Mor]

That WP article is pretty much exactly what I would realistically expect, that the organised 'trolling' was pretty much unsubstantiated accusations and actually pretty typical for any emotive topic- unsurprising that those making the accusations lack any real intellectual rigour.

Yes the good ol' escape of the conspiracy nuts and intent trolls.. just the other day I seen some of those "intellectually rigorous" derive in self pressure at "explaining" 9/11.. Here, it the same repetition Ad nauseum with Zoraptor, as always he is trying to diminish everything that is not pro-Russian, and hang to anything that is, even after Russia state propaganda media reportage has been thoroughly discredited, trying to paint a false picture of he said she said, in a loosing battle.

 

On the topic of Russian paid trolling, as noted several threads ago, on top of Russia being noted as leading practitioner of this for the past couple of years, it also leading the censorship and lack of freedom of speech lists, which coupled with nationalizing all of its major mass media outlets, vast strategic interest and past actions, it's why it propaganda receive the same treatment as Jehovah witness...

Edited June 9, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Yeah bro, it's all a plot by the well known commie Russian rag the Washington Pravda to protect their masters in the Kremlin and discredit brave truth sayers. Yeah, nah. It's just them saying the response is actually fairly typical, and that the US does the same thing anyway. Unsurprising that those two points get a negative response from you, but at least you're consistent.

 

Actually that's PRECISELY my point. They weren't peace protesters. They were just anti-Bush protesters.

 

And the idea that HM Government can only promote peace by leaving everything alone is so vapid I'm genuinely surprised to see you even suggest it!

 

 

They were anti Bush for a reason, not just because they hate those pesky US presidents with four letters in their name. And the primary reason was that, well, he wanted to invade Iraq. Simply saying they were anti Bush in the same way some people are... anti fluoride or anti vaccination is a pretty big distortion, they were against him because of what he was doing, not just randomly.

 

And the point is not that the British government can not promote peace by anything other than leaving stuff alone, it's that people tend to protest for stuff that effects them directly and stuff they feel they can actually change. Neither Syria nor Ukraine directly effects most people in the UK, and there's no realistic way that protesters in the UK can effect either situation either.

[Mor]

It's just them saying the response is actually fairly typical, and that the US does the same thing anyway.

..

They were anti Bush for a reason .. the primary reason was that, well, he wanted to invade Iraq.

Funny, I thought we already been over the whole west is not the US thing, it reminds me a recent dota game with couple of Russians who has been ranting about their team English speakers "Americans" ( I don't why they join West Europe servers with English pref and expect everyone to speak Russian.. )

 

Also just in case you are implying that the circumstances of US\Iraq and Russia\Ukraine are the same, as you did in the past, it is still foolish superficial comparison, which only serves to avoid discussion of Russia's action by diverting to pointless East vs West thing. Although, i'd take the very tenuous possible implication that you admit that Russia was in the wrong in its intervention in Ukraine, which would be more than you have yet to admit here, though you certainly has not qualms about going how bad is dat "west"..

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

I might reply to the first part, but I have not the slightest clue what point you're trying to make. Your comment is completely unrelated to what (the multiply ellipted) quote says.

 

As for the second part, I have many weird and wonderful powers, what I do not have is the ability to get Walsingham to raise subjects based on mind control. He raised Iraq, I just gave the reasons why Syria or Ukraine doesn't get many protesters in the UK. If I were to raise a 'comparative' it would have been- and indeed was- Kosovo, in any case.

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/lOZd8T9ptiA

It's a bit funny - when such true liberal Western people criticize actions of EU and US on Ukraine,  meanwhile such East European migrants from countries enslaved by centuries  fully support anything what their new masters do. It's looks like they not free yourself from slavery, but just change "evil" Russian master to "good" US/Nato master instead. It's your personal problem - slavery and servility inside you. You can't flee from yourself. It's reason why we don't have respect to such people, we exterminate own masters someday and despise such servility. 

[Mor]

I thought it was obvious, that it was about your tendency to excuse Russia's action. In this case recalling previous deflecting to other conflicts, and while I am sure that Kosovo is a jamais vu moment for you, considering your opinion on the topic it is dishonest to excuse Russiaattacking west actions with actually admitting Russia's is in the wrong here.

 

and of course the glossing over the fundamental differences in this conflict get a negative response e.g. Russian media, despite all your gross generalization and innuendo that supported by nothing, fact is that it is fundamentally different from the various media in the west, at best you can say that in this instance Russia media == Fox News on a war path, which unlike your claims is supported by all the data.

 

Also concerning Kosovo or Iraq2, I'd just point one obvious fact, that in both cases those were ~decade old conflicts, in which the international community intervened only after exhaustive effort to resolve the issue between the sides failed, which compared to Russia's blitz opportunistic real-estate grab and blunt power move, driven on completely manufactured propaganda is stupid.

 

There reason for which I already summarized before, although you could easily find more detailed break analysis, from several years back predicting this:

 

 

....Here is summary of the points, on which I based my opinion on the issue:

 

Russia still has the Cold War mentality, blaming the loss of power and status following the break up of the Soviet Union on the west, which portrayed some times almost as its "arch enemy". Russia showed desire to return to the old days, and repeatedly warned against NATO enlargement/expanded cooperation with former Soviet republics. Russia ended up intervening under various pretexts in all those Soviet republics who cooperated with NATO and haven't been brought to heel (i.e. Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, and other seem to brewing), creating "breakaway" region and making direct real estate grabs in tightly grouping in the Black-sea region, which Russia considers as pivotal connector between central Europe and the Balkans in its revival mood.

 

Russia has vested strategic interest in Ukraine joining their Euroasian economic union, playing the buffer zone, playing their energy export pipeline and playing their forward base in the black sea. I recent years Ukraine tried to assert its sovereignty, to become more than a satellite state like Belarus, this caused contention in all the above aspects and Russia using its regional uncontested monopoly power to pressure them in line.

 

Russia has been supporting the president Yanukovych since before 2004. While the orange revolution led to deterioration of the relations between Russia and Ukraine. Notably for Ukraine choosing to go with "western development" and opening the prospect of joining NATO and EU, which was seen as dangerous and against Russian interest. But despite Russia applying pressure for years, Kiev has given little in terms of political concessions to Moscow, until Ukraine put its own head in the noose, bogged down by mismanagement and corruption(despite the big proclamations during the orange revolution) unable to fix its economical problems and unwilling to make unpopular reforms Yanukovych was ready to make 180 for a big pile of cash from Russia. But the popular movement against Yanukovych which led to him being deposed put end to Russia hopes.

 

Russian government control all of its major mass media outlets, in what can be characterized as state-run one-sided affair, at least in relation to issues critical of the government. To put thing in perspective, on the world arena Russia is featured at the bottom of freedom of press ranks and at the top of censorship.(most recently using recent internet censorship laws against "pedophiles" to block opposition websites - as suspected). More importantly Ukraine has large ethnic Russian population, many of who used news in Russian

So yes in my opinion, Russia had exploited the crisis in Ukraine for its own gains. F***ing up Ukraine as it consolidated its losses by securing its strategic goals i.e. the real estate grab in Crimea, and possibly seeking to creating a new buffer zone in the East Ukraine. (Crimea is cut off from the main land and need either cooperative Ukraine or Eastern Ukraine in Russia pocket)

 

 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

 

Putin's isolation is complete.

[Mor]

EU-Moscow row over South Stream gas pipeline - Russia has accused the European Union of imposing "creeping" economic sanctions following Bulgaria's decision to halt construction of a gas pipeline.

 

EU imposing indirect economic sanctions, you don't say! this project it was one of the first things I thought that would hit, and I would be happy if they scrap it altogether for White Stream (or the Turkish project) Europe has been open about its attempt to diversify its gas market for years, and direct pipe line into central Asia would go along way into achieving its goals, denying Russia energy monopoly and providing financial alternatives to countries locked in "union" with Russia.

 

 

@Malcador, that or he is too "macho" for this.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Not really sure how machismo is involved in standing near to other politicians. 

 

 

Obviously he's not too concerned about macho stuff though.

[Sarex]

Putin's isolation is complete.

 

You got that wrong, puting is isolating the western leaders, look at the fear in their eyes, the granny is so scarred she even needs help walking. XD

Edited June 10, 2014 by Sarex

[Mor]

@Malcador, obviously the photo is circulated because of its optics i.e. the impression it conveys. On one side you see the western leader together/engaged, helping the queen("old lady"). With supporting hands, seem to frame picture. On the other side you see Putin, stand on the outskirts with a stern face that begs someone to paint red lipstick smile on him and add "why so serious?" caption.. So if you care for such silly things, as your re-post suggest, the caption is that Putin is isolated or a D***..

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

 On one side you see the western leader together/engaged, helping the queen("old lady"). With supporting hands, seem to frame picture. On the other side you see Putin, stand on the outskirts with a stern face that begs someone to paint red lipstick smile on him and add "why so serious?" caption.. So if you care for such silly things, as your re-post suggest, the caption is that Putin is isolated or a D***..

Actually it's looks like western "leaders" despite of own titles stay servants/slaves in soul. When these "free" people encounter aristocrat's they immediately began served to them, be a servant is just un their blood. Just imagine what can say G.Washington if he see this scene, how American president play role of serf to British monarch. It's epic shame IRL.

[Malcador]

Yep, as that was my joke in the first place, but thanks.

[Mor]

I thought that quoting oby is enough for that, anyway any thought on the why is Putin is being isolated or any of the recent events or possible consequences like the gas line (linked relevant recent posts)

[obyknven]

Loses of Ukrainian army in combats against citisens of East Ukraine.

 

- 3 Hammer;
- 1 UAZ-469;
- 4 (8-10 **) Kamaz;
- 8 trucks (tilt, brand is not established);
- 2 cargo vehicle "Ural" (one of them - with ammunition and towing anti-aircraft installation);
- 4 (5 **) Gas-66 (one was with mortar "Cornflower" / 82mm automatic mortar );
- 1 radio station based on GAZ-66;
- 5 D-30 howitzers;
- 1  self-propelled gun "Gvozdika";
- 3 "Grad" ;
- ZPU-1 ** 2 (23-mm twin anti-aircraft gun)
- 1 (2 **) Zu-23-2
- 3 mortars;
- 1 (2 **) self-propelled gun "Nona-S»
- 4 T-64 tanks
- 48 (66 **) *** APC (BTR / BMD) (armored vehicles) including - exactly 10 (11 **) BMP

 

- 7 Mi-8 helicopters (3 - "Mi-8" - was shot down, 4 - "Mi-8" - were damaged but managed to return to base);
- 6 (7) Mi-24 (1 additional Mi-24 very possibly was shot down over the Red Lyman - 06/05/2014).
- 1 reconnaissance plane An-30 ( Died 6 pers. 2 crew injured);
- 2 Su-25 (or Su-27)

- 1 An-2 plane (to "pile" - but not "combat loss");
- 1 (?) MI-17

 

Looks like someone suck.

[Malcador]

I am skeptical of that list. 

[obyknven]

I am skeptical of that list. 

Combats beginned at 7 april of 2014. Due 2 months of fight Ukrainian army demonstrate no progress here, it's can be explained only by big losses. Meanwhile rebels every day ambushed military columns and destroy at one time at least few armored vehicles.  Also Ukrainian Army officially say - they have problems with evacuation of high amount of wounded soldiers from battlefield.

 

http://army.unian.net/925949-minoboronyi-nam-ne-hvataet-transporta-chtobyi-vyivozit-ranenyih-s-polya-boya.html

[HoonDing]

Putin's isolation is complete.

[Zoraptor]

 

 

Putin's isolation is complete.

 

I find this somewhat funny and yet another example of western propaganda saying different things at different times- there are howls of indignation about people laying hands on old Lizzie when it's the Lizard of Aus but now people are all 'look at those nice Kenyan and Maori chaps helping an OAP while Putin does nothing'. Touching the queen is a major faux pas, so Vladimir Vladimirovich is merely showing impeccable manners while those buffoons Sir Jerry Matepare (really, as Gov Gen he should know better. Plus you'd expect some of Putin's refinement and politeness to have rubbed off on him as he sat next to Vladimir Vladimirovich at dinner) and Obama blatantly ignore royal etiquette like a right pair of uncultured yobbos. No wonder Putin is holding himself aloof from such shenanigans, indeed he allows himself only a mild look of disdain at the whole deal.

 

EU-Moscow row over South Stream gas pipeline - Russia has accused the European Union of imposing "creeping" economic sanctions following Bulgaria's decision to halt construction of a gas pipeline.

 

And that really is... ironic. EU says it wants energy supply security then deliberately sabotages a project that would give them that.

 

It is, of course, far more about preserving Ukraine's ability to hold gas supplies to Europe to ransom so maintaining that bargaining chip against Russia than anything else, as the EU knows that Russia would happily cut Ukraine off for its bill payment failures- but cannot, if it would take out Europe's supply as well.

[Mor]

And that really is... ironic. EU says it wants energy supply security then deliberately sabotages a project that would give them that.

EU long standing policy for energy security, has been about diversification ( and better integration within ) so as long as the gas comes from Russia monopoly, it means little how it get there.. Energy security would require to by pass Russia into central Asia, which is where Russia buys alot of gas and sells it $$$ to EU.

 

Anyway, if this become the first step toward EU energy security, as a lesson learned from Russia's action in this crisis, then it would be great. But overall it has little todo with that, it is simply an economic leverage against Russia's continues meddling in Ukraine, as they were warned, and Russia have to suck it up, just as EU had up until now because they both want the gas flowing..

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

Meanwhile Ukrainian army bomb Slavjansk by White phosphorus.

http://youtu.be/AOKOEzFIBLE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus