Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Bester]

Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists - Telegraph

 

Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels

[...]

The Azov [battalion] men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites.

[...]

Asked about his Nazi sympathies, he said: “After the First World World War, Germany was a total mess and Hitler rebuilt it: he built houses and roads, put in telephone lines, and created jobs. I respect that. Homosexuality is a mental illness and the scale of the Holocaust “is a big question”, he added.

[...]

Such characters under Kiev’s control play straight into the hands of Russian and separatist propaganda that portrays Ukraine’s government as a “fascist junta” manipulated by the West.

 

I lol'd.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Bester

[Gromnir]

 

russian economy is looking more like a middle-eastern nation than is typical o' european countries.

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/rus/all/show/2012/

 

is simplified, but you can see just how dependent russia is on raw materials exports, particular petroleum. russia is hardly the only nation that is not self-sufficient as it relates to food productions, but am going to leave to folks to decide for themselves how likely the russian economy is to absorb significant food import bans as well as foreign sanctions.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

In the context of world division of labor, most countries specialize in something. Finland exports wood and Nokia. Russia exports weapons and natural resources.

 

you are correct that most countries have similar economies... which is why the gap 'tween the haves and have-nots is frequent seen as insurmountable.  western european economies, canada, the US, japan and others is middle-class service economies, and/or manufactures who see most o' their export revenues derived from far more valuable and less volatile capital products.

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/deu/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/nld/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/gbr/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/jpn/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/fra/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/usa/all/show/2012/

 

and even china

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/chn/all/show/2012/

 

more than a few o' the nations above see significant revenue from natural resources, but their economies is diversified and healthy. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

I heard somewhere that Russia has so much diamonds that they could flood the market and make them worthless. Some deal they made is the only reason they don't mine them.

[Bester]

 

 

russian economy is looking more like a middle-eastern nation than is typical o' european countries.

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/rus/all/show/2012/

 

is simplified, but you can see just how dependent russia is on raw materials exports, particular petroleum. russia is hardly the only nation that is not self-sufficient as it relates to food productions, but am going to leave to folks to decide for themselves how likely the russian economy is to absorb significant food import bans as well as foreign sanctions.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

In the context of world division of labor, most countries specialize in something. Finland exports wood and Nokia. Russia exports weapons and natural resources.

 

you are correct that most countries have similar economies... which is why the gap 'tween the haves and have-nots is frequent seen as insurmountable.  western european economies, canada, the US, japan and others is middle-class service economies, and/or manufactures who see most o' their export revenues derived from far more valuable and less volatile capital products.

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/deu/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/nld/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/gbr/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/jpn/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/fra/all/show/2012/

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/usa/all/show/2012/

 

and even china

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/chn/all/show/2012/

 

more than a few o' the nations above see significant revenue from natural resources, but their economies is diversified and healthy. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Next time check your country's trade deficiency http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade before giving lessons about export.

Every month the US exports $40 billion less than it imports. Maybe try diversifying it more, write a letter to your congressman with your genius idea.

 

 

>trying to link export diversification with export volumes

Such facepalm....

Edited August 12, 2014 by Bester

[kgambit]

I heard somewhere that Russia has so much diamonds that they could flood the market and make them worthless. Some deal they made is the only reason they don't mine them.

 

I think you're referring to a massive huge deposit of industrial quality diamonds and not the gemstone quality stones.  Synthetic industrial diamonds are fairly commonplace  and they are actually cheaper to produce than mining the equivalent industrial quality stones. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/18/is-the-diamond-market-about-to-collapse-over-huge-russian-find/

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

again, the US is primarily a service-based economy, so such numbers is less (almost negligible) an issue. russia, on the other hand, is virtual complete dependent on petroleum exports. 

 

there is no reason to take this personal. is not an us v. them situation. is simply a fact that russia has an economy that makes it less capable o' dealing with sanctions than the typical european economy. to then add self-imposed food import bans compounds the problem.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps recent Decline in trade deficit o' the US were actual a sign o' bad health during recent tough economic times.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

I find the talk of Russia shooting itself in the foot over sanctions rather amusing, frankly. As someone from a country that has been continually shafted by EU and US agricultural subsidies artificially lowering prices I find it highly amusing to see people who have benefited from the CAP and ag subsidies- 40+% of the total EU budget in 2010- alternatively wailing at the unfairness and shouting that Russia will never be able to replace those imports. Europe doesn't even have a real world agricultural surplus, it's entirely artificial and based on German and French farmers', Spanish and Portugese fishermen etc etc predilection for parking their slow moving vehicles in annoying places every time significant reform is mooted. On this I am 100% with Victoria Nuland- EU? Asterisk the EU. That they were dumb enough and had enough hubris to think there wouldn't be blowback is just the hilarity cherry on the top of the amusement cake. Now, ban airlines from Russian airspace and watch the hohoho meter rise further.

 

It's not like Russia doesn't have alternatives anyway. They didn't sanction us (just to add to the hilarity our PM says we cannot sanction them even if we wanted to without the UN, er, sanctioning it; which is of course rubbish but it's one time I do support his economic pragmatism wholeheartedly) nor any other countries except NATO/ EU and our trans tasman cousins in the 51st state. Plus Japan probably, but I can't even be bothered checking that since they don't have any sort of agricultural surplus even a constructed one, besides whale meat. They'll buy dairy and beef from here, fruit and beef from South America, fish from various places and everything will continue more or less as normal. Won't cost the US much either as they'll just maintain the deals which are profitable to them as they always do, so Boeing will keep supplying civilian aircraft even if Airbus stops. Overall, nice work , EU, now aim the shotgun at the other foot, I hear Putin is hiding behind that one now.

[BruceVC]

*sigh*

 

again, the US is primarily a service-based economy, so such numbers is less (almost negligible) an issue. russia, on the other hand, is virtual complete dependent on petroleum exports. 

 

there is no reason to take this personal. is not an us v. them situation. is simply a fact that russia has an economy that makes it less capable o' dealing with sanctions than the typical european economy. to then add self-imposed food import bans compounds the problem.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps recent Decline in trade deficit o' the US were actual a sign o' bad health during recent tough economic times.

 

You are too polite Gromnir, it is an us vs them

 

Russia's belligerence and methods to create a buffer zone between itself and NATO friendly countries have become increasingly more globally unacceptable. The West has given Putin lots of leeway on numerous issues, like Georgia, but his paranoia and belief that the West won't act effectively to stop his ambitions have gone too far. He simply overplayed his card in Ukraine, and now there are consequences. And this involves sanctions and just how effectively sanctions can be applied

 

So looking at economic factors like exports and GDP are relevant. We need to understand what counter- sanctions Russia can apply and how they will  hurt the West, because there will be a price to apply sanctions on Russia. But I believe this is a price the West can deal with

[Gromnir]

 But I believe this is a price the West can deal with

 

http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/

 

we didn't post by accident. most western european nations is service economies, meaning that imports v. exports is less significant to euros than for nations such as middle-east oil economies, china, or russia. even so, take a look at any o' the nations affected by the russian import ban and and observe the % o' imports that is foodstuffs. now consider the % o' US chicken production that actually goes to russia. is a fraction o' a fraction. US food producers is yawning with indifference. on the other hand, poles send a goodly portion o' their apples to russia, 50% in fact. if you grow apples in poland, you will be hurt by food ban. even so, .3% o' poland's exports is apples and is not as if those russian allocated polish apples will just rot. new customers will be found, even if at diminished values. poland, lithuania and denmark appear to be amongst the potentially hardest hit, and this is hardly looking like a crippling blow to any o' them. zor thinks this is euros shooting themselves in the foot? he may be correct, but if so, is shooting last digit on smallest toe on left foot. 

 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-s-food-ban-is-high-risk-low-reward/504912.html

 

is just an opinion piece, but makes some interesting observations. russians is spending a far greater % o' their income on food than does westerners, so small increases in food costs disproportionate harm them.  sanctions disproportionate harm the russians and a food ban also affects them-- is a double whammy.

 

oh, and russia were just entering a recession even before sanctions and food ban.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/russia-economy-idUSL6N0QI25E20140812

 

also, it may be cynical o' us, but we suspect that right now western nations is making deals with brazil and other food producers to convince them to limit exports to russia. one year o' food exports to russia will get brazil... what? is not as if brazil will sudden double food production. if brazil is selling their food exports to russia, then former brazillian customers is gonna be available to the euros.oh, and how much can russia pay for brazilian food before it has same effect o' crippling russian economy? western nations is in a position to offer brazil a better deal to simple not sell food to russia. as we seen, the only export russia really has is oil. western nations can offer long-term incentives for Capital goods.

 

ironic maybe, but china might actually be russias' best option for a short-term food supplier as we suspect the western nations has least influence with china.

 

am not saying food ban won't hurt in the west, but it appears that the food ban will hurt russians far more. couple with already existing sanctions... *shrug* is not gonna destroy russia or anything, but is gonna sting something fierce.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bester]

>also, it may be cynical o' us, but we suspect that right now western nations is making deals with brazil and other food producers to convince them to limit exports to russia. 

 

Undoubtedly. But Russia and Brazil are in an organization called BRICK. They're in it for a long term partnership, there's even a possibility of creating a new international financial/currency center (it may fall through, or not, we'll see), but in any case the West can't just swing in and change the whole long term Brazilian foreign policy with a bribe.

 

Plus, the food sanctions are only for a year (it's official, not just my estimates). And frankly, have you seen the list?

 

Like, ok... Russia won't buy frog legs from France. But they will from Vietnam now. Won't buy fruits from Greece? Will buy the same fruits from Turkey and Israel. Potato-potato. I could go on, but it's pretty obvious things there. Frankly, it's something so irrelevant in the big scheme of things to come, I don't feel like further discussing it.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Bester

[Gromnir]

>also, it may be cynical o' us, but we suspect that right now western nations is making deals with brazil and other food producers to convince them to limit exports to russia. 

 

Undoubtedly. But Russia and Brazil are in an organization called BRICK. They're in it for a long term partnership, there's even a possibility of creating a new international financial/currency center (it may fall through, or not, we'll see), but in any case the West can't just swing in and change the whole long term Brazilian foreign policy with a bribe.

 

Plus, the food sanctions are only for a year (it's official, not just my estimates). And frankly, have you seen the list?

 

Like, ok... Russia won't buy frog legs from France. But they will from Vietnam now. Won't buy fruits from Greece? Will buy the same fruits from Turkey and Israel. Potato-potato. I could go on, but it's pretty obvious things there.

actually, the west could very well swing in and change the whole thing with a "bribe." if the west offers a better deal, it ain't a bribe in the grown-up world o' economics and power politics.

 

only a year? works both ways, no? and again, russia is getting sanctions and were already entering a recession. is awful timing, which makes all the more curious. am guessing putin felt like he had to show he were all manly and tough-- hit the westerners back with sanctions o' his own. *shrug* perhaps this is a situation in whcih perception o' russians is more important than reality. 

 

and yeah, we has seen the list... that were our point earlier. scroll up and review. russia is imposing food bans on the diversified and service based economies o' the west. maybe putin really wanna turn the screws and he bans imports o' rubber vomit and whoopie cushions. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[obyknven]

Guys, do you are seriously belive in that propagandistic crap about dying Russian economics?  I hear such sentencies from western politicans during last 10 years.

 

Anyway situation when our enemies worry about our economics looks comical. Something in style of Goebbels propaganda about difficult life in Soviet union with inviting go to "save" in German concentration camps. US "ministry of Truth" must try harder.  (Though all this is for internal consumers, Obama stronk, victoryev erywhere, vote blah balh, losers must continue belive in "democraty").

[Chilloutman]

Guys, do you are seriously belive in that propagandistic crap about dying Russian economics?  I hear such sentencies from western politicans during last 10 years.

 

Anyway situation when our enemies worry about our economics looks comical. Something in style of Goebbels propaganda about difficult life in Soviet union with inviting go to "save" in German concentration camps. US "ministry of Truth" must try harder.  (Though all this is for internal consumers, Obama stronk, victoryev erywhere, vote blah balh, losers must continue belive in "democraty").

haha this is low even for troll like you, enemies? really? Easy life in Soviet union? xD

[Chilloutman]

Another nazi russian mouthwash

 

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/11/110678/

 

“The Baltic States and Poland are doomed,” he said. “They will be wiped out. Nothing will remain there. The heads of these dwarf states should think who they are. Of course, nothing threatens America, because it is far, but Eastern European countries risk to be destroyed completely. This is their fault, because we cannot accept planes and missiles to be launched to Russia from their territories. We need to destroy them 30 minutes before the launch.”

 

just for comparsion

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rHvt199fKc

 

(I love music from red alert 2 start playing around 2 mjinutes in video xD

 

 

Yeah everyone else is nazi but Russians are crystal clear right?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Chilloutman

[obyknven]

 

haha this is low even for troll like you, enemies? really? Easy life in Soviet union? xD

 

Yes, yes Western butchers are our friends, reaally. They just want save us

[Rostere]

Another nazi russian mouthwash

 

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/11/110678/

 

“The Baltic States and Poland are doomed,” he said. “They will be wiped out. Nothing will remain there. The heads of these dwarf states should think who they are. Of course, nothing threatens America, because it is far, but Eastern European countries risk to be destroyed completely. This is their fault, because we cannot accept planes and missiles to be launched to Russia from their territories. We need to destroy them 30 minutes before the launch.”

 

Another recruiter for the EU camp I see. Thank you Zhirinovsky, you do more than the EU or the US could ever do to push countries like Ukraine into the arms of EU and NATO, regardless of whether these want it or not.

 

I'd like to do a Russian reversal paraphrase of a famous quote:

 

"With enemies like these, who needs friends?"

 

Russia is looking increasingly similar to North Korea with these ridiculous and self-harming outbursts. I fear what we are seeing is the ultimate resort to demagoguery for internal politics purposes, regardless of the damage it might cause to Russia's position in the real world.

[obyknven]

Another nazi russian mouthwash

 

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/11/110678/

 

“The Baltic States and Poland are doomed,” he said. “They will be wiped out. Nothing will remain there. The heads of these dwarf states should think who they are. Of course, nothing threatens America, because it is far, but Eastern European countries risk to be destroyed completely. This is their fault, because we cannot accept planes and missiles to be launched to Russia from their territories. We need to destroy them 30 minutes before the launch.”

 

Yeah everyone else is nazi but Russians are crystal clear right?

23 years be a hostile to Russian people, constantly talking about necessity extermination of Russia, place foreign weapon on own territory to war against Russians, give to ethnic Russians status of subhumans... After this when Russians tell them what can happened with their countries in case of continue of this hostile politics they begin cry about evil nazi Russians, tell we want live they are friends... What a traitorous cowards these Limitrophe's are...

[Chilloutman]

 

Another nazi russian mouthwash

 

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/11/110678/

 

“The Baltic States and Poland are doomed,” he said. “They will be wiped out. Nothing will remain there. The heads of these dwarf states should think who they are. Of course, nothing threatens America, because it is far, but Eastern European countries risk to be destroyed completely. This is their fault, because we cannot accept planes and missiles to be launched to Russia from their territories. We need to destroy them 30 minutes before the launch.”

 

Yeah everyone else is nazi but Russians are crystal clear right?

23 years be a hostile to Russian people, constantly talking about necessity extermination of Russia, place foreign weapon on own territory to war against Russians, give to ethnic Russians status of subhumans... After this when Russians tell them what can happened with their countries in case of continue of this hostile politics they begin cry about evil nazi Russians, tell we want live they are friends... What a traitorous cowards these Limitrophe's are...

 

gimme example, gimme one link that prove that any Poland politician talk about necessity of extermination of Russia in last 20 years. BTW Cuba didnt have foreign weapons? Ukraine didnt have russian military harbour? Man even for troll you have low bar

[Agiel]

 

Another nazi russian mouthwash

 

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/11/110678/

 

“The Baltic States and Poland are doomed,” he said. “They will be wiped out. Nothing will remain there. The heads of these dwarf states should think who they are. Of course, nothing threatens America, because it is far, but Eastern European countries risk to be destroyed completely. This is their fault, because we cannot accept planes and missiles to be launched to Russia from their territories. We need to destroy them 30 minutes before the launch.”

 

Another recruiter for the EU camp I see. Thank you Zhirinovsky, you do more than the EU or the US could ever do to push countries like Ukraine into the arms of EU and NATO, regardless of whether these want it or not.

 

I'd like to do a Russian reversal paraphrase of a famous quote:

 

"With enemies like these, who needs friends?"

 

Russia is looking increasingly similar to North Korea with these ridiculous and self-harming outbursts. I fear what we are seeing is the ultimate resort to demagoguery for internal politics purposes, regardless of the damage it might cause to Russia's position in the real world.

 

 

I used to think there was a very bright future ahead of Russia insomuch that South Korea used to have a dictatorship that was almost as loopy as the one to the north and even less well-off before it turned into one of the world's most dynamic economies and a model for a post-modern East Asian society. Now, I think if the FSB thought it was possible they would have loved to have put the genie back into the bottle and unplug Russia's ethernet cable from the rest of the world.

 

I can't help but think that North Korea looks at how China and the former Soviet republics adopted the internet and said "Well there's your problem."

Edited August 13, 2014 by Agiel

[Zoraptor]

Another recruiter for the EU camp I see. Thank you Zhirinovsky, you do more than the EU or the US could ever do to push countries like Ukraine into the arms of EU and NATO, regardless of whether these want it or not.

 

 

Zhirinovsky is a muppet, but he is almost directly equivalent to Svoboda/ Tyanybok- they got similar shares of voting etc- except in one important consideration, Mad Vlad isn't in power in any form, let alone the second largest party in a ruling coalition with multiple ministers. The only 'power' the LDP hold is having a deputy speaker who likes shooting his mouth off as well. They've also never got more than 15% of the vote.

 

Still, I am amused (happens frequently at the moment) that the alternatives to Putin are Zhirinovsky or more realistically the perennial Communist Zhuganov rather than all the 'western liberals' the media likes to embiggen.

[Bester]

 

 

 

[obyknven]

gimme example, gimme one link that prove that any Poland politician talk about necessity of extermination of Russia in last 20 years. BTW Cuba didnt have foreign weapons? Ukraine didnt have russian military harbour? Man even for troll you have low bar

 

 

Poles talk about Russians the same way that anti-Semites talk about Jews .

Typical Poles do want exterminate Russia, any Russia not important what political regime they have. Just some sort of Polish mania.

http://naszdziennik.pl/mysl-felieton/87065,imperium-zla.html

Another Polish guy has wet plans how destroy Russia.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article30038.html

Yet another Polish politican

 

You [Russia] are looking for an enemy and you find it in Poland.”

 

-Polish Foreign Minister Adam Daniel Rotfeld, 2005

It's really typical Polish behaviour (though this is alwais make epic failure to them)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/6127277/World-War-2-Poland-was-conspiring-with-Nazis-to-destroy-Soviet-Union-Russia-claims.html

 

Just Polish commoner tell about butthurt how he  hate Russians.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/why-i-was-taught-to-hate-russians

 

Poles do want place weapons of mass destruction into own country. By some intelligence reports PRO IRL is just covering for placing of US nukes in Europe instead of mythic missile defence (they fail majority of tests to intercept something).

http://europeandisarmament.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/view-from-poland-we-need-us-nuclear-warheads-in-%D0%B5urope/

 

How everyone can wondering why Russians consider Poland as hostile country after this. But most disgusting thing - all these East European Russian-haters are cowards, they just have fear to say "Yes we are your enemies", they constantly try hide own hostile nature by childish lie, this is so infantile attempt don't take responsibility for their own actions.

Same thing about Ukrainians. Firstly they shouted how they soon massacre ethnic Russians, and do this in some places (Odessa for example) - now they crying about evil "Russians" rebels who kill Ukrainian punishers. Looks like these idiots seriously believe that only they can kill opponents, when their opponents begin kill them in response this is so unfair.

 

>Ukraine didnt have russian military harbour

Nope, this harbour belongs to Russia. You too slow.

[Chilloutman]

What are you trying to imply by this Bester? I already explained why there is so many russians in east Ukraine (I am suprised that there are not more in west)

 

map of czech republic before 2nd WW. red are germans

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Sudetendeutsche.png/1024px-Sudetendeutsche.png

 

Hitler was going to 'save' them from czech oppresion

Edited August 14, 2014 by Chilloutman

[obyknven]

Sudden evidence of massive losings in Junta army. Ukraina buy old Soviet tanks (downgraded t-72) from Hungary. These tanks extremely worse than modern Ukrainian tanks, but this is looks like majority of them are destroyed.

 

http://www.hidfo.net/2014/08/12/hulladekvas-araert-eladott-honvedsegi-harckocsik-utban-az-ukrajnai-haboru-fele

[Bester]

This thread was in desperate need for an out of place hitler reference.

 

Poroshenko is ordering air strikes and shellings of eastern cities, then this guy barges in and says "putin = hitler LOL". Very thoughtful.

 

I find that when people compare everything to hitler, it is often an indicator of poor history knowledge, which leads to situation where people can't compare a conflict or a person to anything, but the large outlines of ww2 (hitler) because ww2 is all they know in the first place.

 

You know Panama '89? This is what should've happened, except Putin decided not to intervene for some reason.