Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[obyknven]

It doesn't say much for the military effectiveness of Russia at the moment, and you still think you will win  a traditional war the USA?

 

Do you mean a full-scale Russian invasion with tanks and hordes of cannon fodder as it's typically portrayed in US patriotic movies/games? We really don't want do this. And we really don't need do this if we someday decide destroy USA.

What is traditional war? When Reich during WW2 raep such cool and powerful army as French by new style of warfare - this is traditional or not?

Anyway Russia always be some sort of desert, vast armies never exist here. Current Russian government quite smart for understanding this and typically prefer more subtle methods for reach of own goals.

For example someone really thinking Russians try defeat Ukrainian Junta by military force? Nope, goal is quite different - overheating Junta and help them shot own leg. Just look at them - they are bankrupts, treasury is empty, civil war consume all their moneys and they continue this war only because US (or US taxpayers ) pay for it. They destroy own industry and own huge cities, separate own people by hate and killings... and most important things they don't have money for restore all this.. They all deadmen, their state is dead, they too slow and don't understand yet but their fate is doomed and no chances exist for escape from this. EU can try save them... but this is even better... Ukrainian crisis may overheated them too... even today conflict inside EU increased dramatic... Eurosceptics take power... probably EU is main target in this conflict.

 

While you thinking a new video about crying Junta military forces.

http://youtu.be/POQqlvKjDgg

 

And othere video where happy Rebels go to battle.

http://youtu.be/GffdgaWKZSk

[Sarex]

That is true about Chechnya now, its much less violent. But Russia took 10 years to subdue one country, you had two wars with Chechnya and only finally succeeded when you adopted the tactics of the brutal and corrupt  Ramzan Kadyrov. Who is now current president of Chechnya

It doesn't say much for the military effectiveness of Russia at the moment, and you still think you will win  a traditional war the USA?

 

As opposed to which war the USA had: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bay of Pigs?

[BruceVC]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/05/the_seduction_of_george_w_bush_by_vladimir_putin

 

Guys I suggest you read this, kgambit sent it to. It explains some of the tensions that exist  between Russia and USA and the presidential  relationship since Bush junior. It also gives some interesting information  around Georgia and why the USA didn't intervene militarily.

 

Its a long read but trust me the insights are worth it, especially if you want to understand why  the West treats Putin a certain way

[obyknven]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/05/the_seduction_of_george_w_bush_by_vladimir_putin

 

Guys I suggest you read this, kgambit sent it to. It explains some of the tensions that exist  between Russia and USA and the presidential  relationship since Bush junior. It also gives some interesting information  around Georgia and why the USA didn't intervene militarily.

 

Its a long read but trust me the insights are worth it, especially if you want to understand why  the West treats Putin a certain way

Oh no! Again Putin!

[Zoraptor]

Well, it gets one thing unequivocally right, namely: "Again and again, Bush and Obama have assessed Russia through an American prism and come away disappointed that the view from the Kremlin looks different than they thought it ought to." Which, of course, betrays a near total lack of introspection as well as gross arrogance.

 

But then there's never been a less introspective or more arrogant group than politicians.

[NWN_babaYaga]

Money... why was the iraq attacked ? Why was Lybia attacked ? dollar maybe ? ..no that cannot be because politicians dont say so.... uhuhuhu....What do you guys think why everyone was killed who wanted to get out of the rothschilds dollar ?

 

Ups... i forgot Kennedy!

Edited August 17, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Zoraptor]

Right Sector apparently plan to march on Kiev in the next 48 hours if their demands are not met. Yes, that is written correct; pull out of Lugansk/ Donetsk and march on Kiev.

 

Whether they'll actually do it or not it does rather reinforce that arming right wing nutters is most definitively a double edged sword.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Orogun01]

Right Sector apparently plan to march on Kiev in the next 48 hours if their demands are not met. Yes, that is written correct; pull out of Lugansk/ Donetsk and march on Kiev.

 

Whether they'll actually do it or not it does rather reinforce that arming right wing nutters is most definitively a double edged sword.

How many times has that government been ousted since this whole thing began?

[Zoraptor]

Once only. Yatsenyuk did resign over budgetary issues, but his resignation was not accepted and the measures were eventually passed.

[Rostere]

Right Sector apparently plan to march on Kiev in the next 48 hours if their demands are not met. Yes, that is written correct; pull out of Lugansk/ Donetsk and march on Kiev.

 

Whether they'll actually do it or not it does rather reinforce that arming right wing nutters is most definitively a double edged sword.

 

Uh, OK...

[Walsingham]

Well, it gets one thing unequivocally right, namely: "Again and again, Bush and Obama have assessed Russia through an American prism and come away disappointed that the view from the Kremlin looks different than they thought it ought to." Which, of course, betrays a near total lack of introspection as well as gross arrogance.

 

But then there's never been a less introspective or more arrogant group than politicians.

 

Apart from the general public.

 

That is if you don't mind me interrupting your swan-shaped fantasy land of righteous anarchists and evil politicos.

[BruceVC]

 

Well, it gets one thing unequivocally right, namely: "Again and again, Bush and Obama have assessed Russia through an American prism and come away disappointed that the view from the Kremlin looks different than they thought it ought to." Which, of course, betrays a near total lack of introspection as well as gross arrogance.

 

But then there's never been a less introspective or more arrogant group than politicians.

 

Apart from the general public.

 

That is if you don't mind me interrupting your swan-shaped fantasy land of righteous anarchists and evil politicos.

 

 

Also we need to ask "what prism has the West  expected to see Russia in " ?

 

Its really been about points like the expectation that Russia abides by  the principles of Democracy within its own country and respects the international sovereignty of countries. Also unreasonable vetoes in the UN security council are not appreciated, like Syria.  This is not arrogant but rather how  important and influential countries, like Russia,  should behave in the 21st century

[obyknven]

 

 

 

Its really been about points like the expectation that Russia abides by  the principles of Democracy within its own country and respects the international sovereignty of countries. Also unreasonable vetoes in the UN security council are not appreciated, like Syria.  This is not arrogant but rather how  important and influential countries, like Russia,  should behave in the 21st century

 

 By your logic important and influential countries must suck US lingam. It's obvious substitution of concepts.

As i tell before we are quite happy when our enemies blaming us, much worse when they praise us as it been during ****ty rule of Gorbachev and Yeltzin.

Western approval of our actions is not needed for us, i even wondering why someone can think what Russians do want Western praise.

[Zoraptor]

Must try harder Bruce, that's far too obvious.

 

 

Apart from the general public.

 

 

Nah, the general public is mainly just apathetic when it comes to such things.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Its really been about points like the expectation that Russia abides by  the principles of Democracy within its own country and respects the international sovereignty of countries. Also unreasonable vetoes in the UN security council are not appreciated, like Syria.  This is not arrogant but rather how  important and influential countries, like Russia,  should behave in the 21st century

 

 By your logic important and influential countries must suck US lingam. It's obvious substitution of concepts.

As i tell before we are quite happy when our enemies blaming us, much worse when they praise us as it been during ****ty rule of Gorbachev and Yeltzin.

Western approval of our actions is not needed for us, i even wondering why someone can think what Russians do want Western praise.

 

 

That's the thing, the West isn't critical of Putin for  moving more and more away from a Democracy because a dictatorship doesn't necessarily suit them. Its in the best interests of the Russian people to be part of a Democratic system. Democracies work and are the best way to uplift all the people in a particular country  both socially and economically

 

So I don't expect the Russian people to want approval from Western countries, I would never ask any country to do that. I expect the Russian people to want the best possible government for themselves. And the way Putin is running the country and making political decisions confirms these aren't in the best long term interests of Russia

[Chilloutman]

It would be nice to read from some Russian who is not obliviouse troll or idiot to see his point of view

[Chilloutman]

Old czech joke about soviet help

 

factory worker: Hey Ivan, what should be in those boxes with humanitarian help?

Ivan: ah just some medical supplies and spare parts

Factory worker: well its strange, I tried to put them togather multiple times, and it always end up as machinegun

[obyknven]

That's the thing, the West isn't critical of Putin for  moving more and more away from a Democracy because a dictatorship doesn't necessarily suit them. Its in the best interests of the Russian people to be part of a Democratic system. Democracies work and are the best way to uplift all the people in a particular country  both socially and economically

 

So I don't expect the Russian people to want approval from Western countries, I would never ask any country to do that. I expect the Russian people to want the best possible government for themselves. And the way Putin is running the country and making political decisions confirms these aren't in the best long term interests of Russia

 

1. Stop talking about Democratic systems while such systems don't exist in current time - everywhere in world only oligarchic republics with patricians and powerless plebs.

2. Even someone make true Democracy (technically this is can be make'd now) this is not mean Democracies are "best way", until you give proofs of it (IRL all Democracies has been defeated by oligarchies or tyrannies).

3. Your problem (and Western politics) - you don't understand what Russia is and who are Russians. Do you seriously belive Russians criticize Putin because he so un-democratic and not support Maidan, take Crimea and support rebels in East Ukraine?

In Russia opposition criticise Putin because he is too peaceful, too softcore, too friendly with West, too weak, don't want invade Ukraine and ban EU food only now while opposition demand do this yet 10 years ago.

Ok, imagine West overthrow him (though this is too stupid in 2018 year he stop being a president anyway), but who replace him in this case? Someone pro-West aka "democratic"? No way really, only someone much harder, much aggresive, much hostile to West. West again demontrate own strategic stupidity as  in case of Somalia, Lybia, Sirya, Afghanistan or Iraq too.

[NWN_babaYaga]

A russian who is not a troll or idiot by the logic of the illogical dude is to be as stupid as most of the west people are so he can be one of them. OR us. But as a western dude myself I say no please dont be such an idiot and sell your own culture again for some "tolerant" western society that thinks Marquise de Sade wrote World litareate, Lady Gaga is cool cuz she is pro-sexual perversity and and and. In 10 years the mainstream could tell you that fuc***ng little kids is ok and has to be tolerated and you would be OK with that! The western cultural racism against russia and all other cultures is some serious issue. Racism is not only against one race but against a specific kind of culture too. But most "west" twerps dont understand even a little bit of history and our times (and culture is something you all dont even know what it means) . You are and I am not the greatest. Surely not!

 

And if you think i´m alone with that thought here in germany you are dead wrong. Here are more people who have sided with russia then the media and politics will ever admit. And it´s not a surprise. We are not as narrow minded and racist as you are!

 

And to be honest, russia is a little bit more then you think but a land being build upon the dead native people cant produce anything of real value. Just lies and suffering for others. That is your culture! The future for a good europe is with russia and without NATO and the US and israel. Thats it. That is the way europe is meant to be because we are EURASIA and not your fantasy utopia from the minds of a few sickos aka free masons, bankers and monarchs of old.

 

All you whites are misplaced in America. Your home would be the Eurasien continent! So as along as you dont give back the stolen land to the people you are still children of robbers and murderers! But you dont want to know your own history and tell others what is morality and such BS. If there is a disgrace to the whites then the people still being ignorant about their past. Live your little life in your nice bubble and spit out your "good" stuff... one day you will wake up

Edited August 18, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Chilloutman]

A russian who is not a troll or idiot by the logic of the illogical dude is to be as stupid as most of the west people are so he can be one of them. OR us. But as a western dude myself I say no please dont be such an idiot and sell your own culture again for some "tolerant" western society that thinks Marquise de Sade wrote World litareate, Lady Gaga is cool cuz she is pro-sexual perversity and and and. The western cultural racism against russia and all other cultures is some serious issue. Racism is not only against one race but against a specific kind of culture too. But most "west" twerps dont understand even a little bit of history and our times. You are and I am not the greatest. Surely not!

 

And if you think i´m alone with that thought here in germany you are dead wrong. Here are more people who have sided with russia then the media and politics will ever admit. And it´s not a surprise. We are not as narrow minded and racist as you are!

 

And to be honest, russia is a little bit more then you think but a land being build upon the dead native people cant produce anything of real value. Just lies and suffering for others. That is your culture!

What are you talking about? I am not form US. I dont have anything against Russian culture as long as it stays in Russia, they have little bad reputation about expanding it to other countries even if they dont want to (same as US if you imply). I dont like lady Gaga - dont know what he/she have to do with what we are talking about here either. I dont know where you take that I am racist. I just have hard time beliving that all russians think that 'West' is their enemy. I didnt seen Russia as enemy for last 20 years, but it seems I was too forgiving. And US didnt create anything of real value? Well they create computers, have guy on the moon...

[NWN_babaYaga]

You are clearly not of the mindset i think i tolerate. Keep your lies and have a good lunch

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

A russian who is not a troll or idiot by the logic of the illogical dude is to be as stupid as most of the west people are so he can be one of them. OR us. But as a western dude myself I say no please dont be such an idiot and sell your own culture again for some "tolerant" western society that thinks Marquise de Sade wrote World litareate, Lady Gaga is cool cuz she is pro-sexual perversity and and and. The western cultural racism against russia and all other cultures is some serious issue. Racism is not only against one race but against a specific kind of culture too.

Racism is primarily about race. You're thinking of xenophobia. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary.

 

But most "west" twerps dont understand even a little bit of history and our times. You are and I am not the greatest. Surely not!

Speak for yourself, I am the greatest.

 

And to be honest, russia is a little bit more then you think but a land being build upon the dead native people cant produce anything of real value. Just lies and suffering for others. That is your culture!

Then why are you on a site of an American company? If you don't think they produce anything of value, spending your time here seems very illogical.

 

The future for a good europe is with russia and without NATO and the US and israel. Thats it. That is the way europe is meant to be because we are EURASIA and not your fantasy utopia from the minds of a few sickos aka free masons, bankers and monarchs of old.

Yes yes, we are the NWO come to enslave you to the Lizard-Jews from Planet X. Europe can only succeed by ditching its largest trading partner in favor of a perto-economy.

[Chilloutman]

You are clearly not of the mindset i think i tolerate. Keep your lies and have a good lunch

Freedom mindset is not what you tolerate? Move to Russia man

[obyknven]

 

Freedom mindset is not what you tolerate? Move to Russia man

 

Polish guy teach German guy about freedom lol.

[Rostere]

You are and I am not the greatest. Surely not!

 

 

And if you think i´m alone with that thought here in germany you are dead wrong. Here are more people who have sided with russia then the media and politics will ever admit. And it´s not a surprise. We are not as narrow minded and racist as you are!

 

That's funny you know, narrow-mindedness and racism (in the guise of nationalism) is pretty much the reason people don't like Russia.

 

And to be honest, russia is a little bit more then you think but a land being build upon the dead native people cant produce anything of real value.

 

It took me a lot of parsing to understand this sentence was not referring to Russia. Nevertheless, you do realize you are on the forums of an American company and that NWN - which is in your nickname on this forums - is an American product? Maybe you should take a step back, things are not as black or white, or as homogeneous, as you think they are. Give some respect where it's due.

 

The future for a good europe is with russia and without NATO and the US and israel. Thats it. That is the way europe is meant to be because we are EURASIA and not your fantasy utopia from the minds of a few sickos aka free masons, bankers and monarchs of old.

 

But wouldn't the future be even better if EVERYONE could get together? Now that we are discussing crackpot fantasies? I can see why you wouldn't want to tie yourself up with the US, but why do so with Russia instead?

 

Yes yes, we are the NWO come to enslave you to the Lizard-Jews from Planet X. Europe can only succeed by ditching its largest trading partner in favor of a petro-economy.

Hush, don't give away our plan! He doesn't know the secret handshake!