Female gamers having a hard time in gaming communites

[SusurrusParadox]

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, I can give similar stories about ladies I know who have been harassed and abused online only because they are female. But you have made the point brilliantly that  this problem is real and exists. What frustrates me the most about some people on these forums is that they have a  view that either the problem that SJW raise isn't as severe as they make it out to be or there solution to address this problem isn't really a solution at all. In other words you hear comments like " but men get abused online...someone once was rude to me" or " I'm sick of hearing about this sexism issue " as if that makes any difference whatsoever to the reality of the situation

 

Well the good news is that there is an increased awareness, solutions and condemnation  from many circles of society around these types of social issues. So for those that are tired of hearing about sexism and misogyny my advice is " get use to it, its not going anywhere " 

 

 

And yet the solution you advocate is to have women artificially seperated from men and granted a superior status, if you want women to be accepted hiding them away and treating them differently is not the correct method, a five year old could reason that out Bruce. It will do nothing except exacerbate the problem.

 

 

No Nonek, I am not suggesting that now we automatically separate every female gamer from all men and they don't interact. I am saying if female gamers want there own space let them have it. But this should be optional.

 

 

Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated.

 

It's not the same thing at all.

There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots.

(Although, if you want a 'permabanned forever' club for that group then by all means I support that.)

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

Isn't that the point?

As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here.

Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. 

 

My problem with this stance is that while this is a valid opinion to have, it's fairly unsupported by scientific facts (as far as I'm aware). And yes, the opposite is also unsupported (again, to my knowledge); but if there are no compelling arguments either way, I think the groups in question should decide whether they want their protected spaces or not. At least this is what seems reasonable to me.

[Malcador]

As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here.

Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

You're quite mistaken if you think that's the case, heh. Even a cursory glance of the threads in the C&C forum would disprove that. 

 

It's funny how sanctimony and preaching is a common factor with you types.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

 

Sorry.

 

Edit: In general I agree with Ms Lightfoot however, isolation and preferential treatment do not create a harmonious melange. If there are womens group then for parities sake there should be a simlar group for the other gender, though personally I would say both are harmful to creating a successful mixed virtual society.

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this.

 

 

Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems  to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers.

 

You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

[Gfted1]

You're quite mistaken if you think that's the case, heh. Even a cursory glance of the threads in the C&C forum would disprove that. 

 

It's funny how sanctimony and preaching is a common factor with you types.

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy.

[Hassat Hunter]

Guys I am happy to tell anyone who wants to know my reasons why there are almost no ladies on these forums. But don't ask unless you want to know because I'm going to be honest

 

I don't think the lack of boning (bone-ing?) in Obsidian games is the cause, no...

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, I can give similar stories about ladies I know who have been harassed and abused online only because they are female. But you have made the point brilliantly that  this problem is real and exists. What frustrates me the most about some people on these forums is that they have a  view that either the problem that SJW raise isn't as severe as they make it out to be or there solution to address this problem isn't really a solution at all. In other words you hear comments like " but men get abused online...someone once was rude to me" or " I'm sick of hearing about this sexism issue " as if that makes any difference whatsoever to the reality of the situation

 

Well the good news is that there is an increased awareness, solutions and condemnation  from many circles of society around these types of social issues. So for those that are tired of hearing about sexism and misogyny my advice is " get use to it, its not going anywhere " 

 

 

And yet the solution you advocate is to have women artificially seperated from men and granted a superior status, if you want women to be accepted hiding them away and treating them differently is not the correct method, a five year old could reason that out Bruce. It will do nothing except exacerbate the problem.

 

 

No Nonek, I am not suggesting that now we automatically separate every female gamer from all men and they don't interact. I am saying if female gamers want there own space let them have it. But this should be optional.

 

 

Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated.

 

It's not the same thing at all.

There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots.

(Although, if you want a 'permabanned forever' club for that group then by all means I support that.)

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

Isn't that the point?

As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here.

Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

 

 

I don't know who you are  SusurrusParadox but I am really enjoying your perspective and insight in this topic

[aluminiumtrioxid]

As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here.

Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

 

 

Welcome to patriarchy. But if you consider yourself an ally, it is kind of your job to educate the abusive backwards cavemen, because they will probably listen to the same arguments even less if they come out of the mouths of [insert marginalized group].

 

Word of friendly advice, though: most people here are fairly educated and intelligent (while unquestionably holding some pretty iffy opinions). Insulting them will get you nowhere, rational arguments might. (Probably won't, but you're dealing with massive amounts of cognitive dissonance, expecting things to change overnight is fairly unrealistic.)

[BruceVC]

 

You're quite mistaken if you think that's the case, heh. Even a cursory glance of the threads in the C&C forum would disprove that. 

 

It's funny how sanctimony and preaching is a common factor with you types.

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy.

 

 

Or maybe he actually took acception at a highly contriversial opinion that for many just seems normal but in fact is not.

[Gfted1]

 

Yeah, Im sure that's it.

[Malcador]

Probably just Bruce's alt.

 

So I guess we are cavemen that need educating.  When's the Obsidian Forum gender studies course starting ?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Malcador

[JadedWolf]

 

 

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice.

 

 

No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them

 

 

He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester.

 

What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks.

 

By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour.

[BruceVC]

Probably just Bruce's alt.

 

So I guess we are cavemen that need educating.  When's the Obsidian Forum gender studies course starting ?

 

I was waiting for someone to suggest that, no he is not my alt. I have only one alt, BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here.

Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

 

 

Welcome to patriarchy. But if you consider yourself an ally, it is kind of your job to educate the abusive backwards cavemen, because they will probably listen to the same arguments even less if they come out of the mouths of [insert marginalized group].

 

Word of friendly advice, though: most people here are fairly educated and intelligent (while unquestionably holding some pretty iffy opinions). Insulting them will get you nowhere, rational arguments might. (Probably won't, but you're dealing with massive amounts of cognitive dissonance, expecting things to change overnight is fairly unrealistic.)

 

 

As usual you make some good points but I think everyone can handle some direct debate and opinions

[Nonek]

 

 

 

Sorry.

 

Edit: In general I agree with Ms Lightfoot however, isolation and preferential treatment do not create a harmonious melange. If there are womens group then for parities sake there should be a simlar group for the other gender, though personally I would say both are harmful to creating a successful mixed virtual society.

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this.

 

 

Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems  to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers.

 

You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

 

 

Whom exactly is arguing for the status quo Bruce? I am arguing for the change and the two genders and the forums facing their problem, rather than hiding themselves away in gender discriminatory forums. This does nothing but exacerbates the problem and allows the abusers free reign within the general space, which seems to be the status quo. This is simple logic.

 

I am most certainly not the individual attempting a Sisyphean task out of pure vanity Bruce, and expecting different results each time.

 

I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nonek

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

As usual you make some good points but I think everyone can handle some direct debate and opinions

 

 

Being a good ally is not about insulting people over the internet, methinks.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice.

 

 

No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them

 

 

He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester.

 

What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks.

 

By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour.

 

 

To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like  Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument.  Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

 

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice.

 

 

No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them

 

 

He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester.

 

What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks.

 

By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour.

 

 

To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like  Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument.  Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters

 

 

"You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."

[Malcador]

Talking about this here is like worrying about a building collapsing before it's built. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Whom exactly is arguing for the status quo Bruce? I am arguing for the change and the two genders and the forums facing their problem, rather than hiding themselves away in gender discriminatory forums. This does nothing but exacerbates the problem and allows the abusers free reign within the general space, which seems to be the status quo. This is simple logic.

 

 

I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage.

 

 

I feel a need to direct you to a previous post of mine, which I feel might have been overlooked in the business of shouting nasty things at each other vehemently...

 

 

My problem with this stance is that while this is a valid opinion to have, it's fairly unsupported by scientific facts (as far as I'm aware). And yes, the opposite is also unsupported (again, to my knowledge); but if there are no compelling arguments either way, I think the groups in question should decide whether they want their protected spaces or not. At least this is what seems reasonable to me.

 

 

Also, this:

 

I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage.

 

is a reasonable expectation and should be kept in mind by all.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

SJWs need a safe space here.

Perhaps SJWs need a new group of SJWs to protect them from persecution?

[Malcador]

Already have those - RPS & Kotaku.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Sorry.

 

Edit: In general I agree with Ms Lightfoot however, isolation and preferential treatment do not create a harmonious melange. If there are womens group then for parities sake there should be a simlar group for the other gender, though personally I would say both are harmful to creating a successful mixed virtual society.

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this.

 

 

Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems  to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers.

 

You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

 

 

Whom exactly is arguing for the status quo Bruce? I am arguing for the change and the two genders and the forums facing their problem, rather than hiding themselves away in gender discriminatory forums. This does nothing but exacerbates the problem and allows the abusers free reign within the general space, which seems to be the status quo. This is simple logic.

 

I am most certainly not the individual attempting a Sisyphean task out of pure vanity Bruce, and expecting different results each time.

 

I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage.

 

 

Nonek, I really enjoy your posts and respect your opinion so I hope  you don't take these debates personally.

 

But can we please move on from the  "abusive backwards cavemen" comments. As you have told me numerous times its just words and people must have thick skins on the Internet. By focusing on that and suddenly being offended I find it totally out of  character for you and completley hypercritical to what you have explained to me in the past about insults on places like RPGCodex and how people need to deal with comments

 

Lets focus on the topic and not what someone called you.

 

Now you are suggesting that a separate space for lady gamers wouldn't work or be the best way to address abuse of female gamers. But we also know in the Star Citizen example the Mods and all current measures don't do  enough as there a clear objective from the lady gamers to have there own area., How can you think that increased Mod influence would solve this? That is the status quo just trying to enhance it. Of course there will be some lady gamers who don't care and will join male dominated guilds and groups. But end of the day the problem of abuse towards women in certain games needs a paradigm shift and even though I agree in some respects it seems like admitting failure if groups of lady gamers want there own groups this should be accepted due to the circumstances ?

Edited May 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

You don't need a club of your own.Yo

You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space.

 

 

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice.

 

 

No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them

 

 

He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester.

 

What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks.

 

By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour.

 

 

To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like  Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument.  Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters

 

 

"You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

[Nonek]

 

Nonek, I really enjoy your posts and respect your opinion so I hope  you don't take these debates personally.

 

But can we please move on from the  "abusive backwards cavemen" comments. As you have told me numerous times its just words and people must have thick skins on the Internet. By focusing on that and suddenly being offended I find it totally out of  character for you and completley hypercritical to what you have explained to me in the past about insults on places like RPGCodex and how people need to deal with comments

 

Lets focus on the topic and not what someone called you.

 

Now you are suggesting that a separate space for lady gamers wouldn't work or be the best way to address abuse of female gamers. But we also know in the Star Citizen example the Mods and all current measures don't do  enough as there a clear objective from the lady gamers to have there own area., How can you think that increased Mod influence would solve this? That is the status quo just trying to enhance it. Of course there will be some lady gamers who don't care and will join male dominated guilds and groups. But end of the day the problem of abuse towards women in certain games needs a paradigm shift and even though I agree in some respects it seems like admitting failure if groups of lady gamers want there own groups this should be accepted due to the circumstances ?

 

 

I am hardly dwelling on the insults you enjoyed Bruce merely asking the gentleman to refrain from them in the spirit of good discourse.

 

The mods of those forums have a duty of care to everybody whom frequents the place, it is their responsibility to police the place. As I said earlier creating artifical gender discriminatory hiding places does not tackle the issue, it merely allows the status quo to continue as you wish it to Bruce. If there are gender based groups it is a sign of failure and lack of oversight, if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple, both are short term measures that merely mask the problem rather than deal with it.

 

If there is abuse then deal with it as such, if there are threats then deal with them as such and if there is "offense" taken at a little banter then let the offended deal with that themselves, and give back just as good as they recieved. If there is a difference of opinion then let lively free discourse under the sites guidleines ensue, rather than being strangled by offense that one cannot foretell will occur, or one simply does not mean to cause.

 

Edit: Women are not special, they are not delicate and they are not of a different species, they are the same as us and should be treated as such in most matters, other than the obvious. And with that you'll have to excuse me ladies and gentlemen, it's my turn to make dinner, good evening.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nonek