Attack speed?

[kronyth]

Here is the list of things I know\suspect to effect attack speed:

* Monks and probably other classes can gain bonus to their attack speed through abilities. But does all class has the same base attack speed?

* Each weapon type has its own attack speed, implements are the fastest, swords faster than great axes etc, right ?

* Certain attack styles (and maybe talents?) can increase attack speed, for example attacking with two weapons is faster than with one.

* Armor with higher protection rating slow you down.

 

Any ideas?

[Lephys]

I would imagine there might be slight class-based differences in attack speed, but I'd like to see them more as modifiers. For example, a monk might attack faster with his fists (obviously) than anyone else will with their fists, but he'd probably attack far slower with a Great Maul than a Barbarian who specializes in Great Mauls.

 

That, and a Fighter might attack much faster with a longsword (if he's trained with it and all, being a Fighter) than a Wizard does with a dagger or something (if he's not very trained with it, as he probably gets fewer/lesser weapons training/proficiency than a Fighter, be it inherently or via progression/allocatable points/choosable talents, etc.).

 

I'm not overly fond of the just flat attack speed ratings for characters. That gets a little Action RPG-y.

 

Really, I think it could all be handled by some form of Proficiency modifiers. But, I'd definitely like to see that. Maybe some classes start with inherent proficiency bonuses to certain weapon groups (or just an allocatable bonus "feat," as in, your Fighter starts with 1st-level proficiency in any one weapon group, but you pick what it is at creation, versus other classes starting at level-0 proficiency bonus, or level-1 with only a specific weapon, etc. *shrug*).

 

As for the armor thing, that's pretty much in, exactly. If I'm not mistaken, that's what armor does; slows your "Action speed," which I believe includes not only standard weapon attacks, but also casting and abilities, etc. Maybe even item usage? I think anything that requires time to perform, in-combat, gets affected by armor "encumbrance."

 

And, as for what we know of how proficiencies will be in the game, I think Josh has talked about how there will be proficiency choices for groups of weapons (like... polearms, etc, instead of just "Weapon Proficiency -- Halberd" or "Weapon Proficiency -- Spear"), BUT, I don't know if groups are the only proficiency-related options that will exist, and/or what else there will be.

 

Maybe you can specialize in polearms, but focus on one particular polearm? So, for super simple example purposes, you'd get +2 with any polearm, but +4 with a halberd or something.

 

Oh! Also, as for combat styles affecting attack speed, I remember at some point there being discussion of the Fighter's Defender Mode decreasing his attack speed. However, I don't know if that was an idea just being tossed around (Because it increases his defensive/engagement capabilities, so the trade-off was most clearly going to be a detriment to his offensive capabilities, which could be a number of factors) or what, but I think the current design has it only affecting his Accuracy? I'm not sure on that.

 

I'd like to see stances/styles affect this, though. Maybe some Furious Assault-type ability or something that increases your attack speed for, say, 10 seconds, but at the cost of decreased defense for the duration? You'd be more likely to get hit whenever the enemy struck at you but you'd be guaranteed to get in more potential hits than your foe in that given time. Well, assuming he wasn't already attacking faster than you... Anywho, suff like that would be cool.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Lephys

[J.E. Sawyer]

Barring the use of abilities or spells, no class attacks inherently faster than another.  Weapons have different attack speeds (and reload speeds, for crossbows and firearms) based on their animations.  Following their attack (or spell cast or item use), every character processes a proportional recovery time before they perform their next attack or action (movement simply pauses recovery time).  Heavier armor increases the recovery time.  Spells and abilities that speed up attacks/actions will reduce recovery times until there is no pause between attacks (this is pretty rare and I don't think it's actually possible with current bonuses).  After that point, the attacks themselves speed up.

 

So if you had three characters with sabres run up to attack a target, assuming they all arrived at the same time, they would all attack simultaneously.  One of the attackers wears no armor, one is in mail, and one is in plate armor.  Assuming no other modifiers, the one wearing no armor will execute their next attack first, followed by the one in mail, who is in turn followed by the one in plate.  If the unarmored character moves during their recovery, their recovery would be paused for the duration of their movement, meaning it's entirely possible that if they hop over to someone nearby, their next attack would wind up following the other two characters who have a statistically slower recovery.

 

Both rangers and monks have abilities that can speed up their attacks.  For rangers, it's a mode they enter that lowers their Accuracy as well.  For monks, it's a short-duration boost that costs them Wounds (their power resource).

[Lephys]

I didn't realize it was specifically the recovery time between actions that fluctuated. Thanks for this breakdown, Josh. ^_^

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's based off of the overall action time + recovery time, but the recovery time is the first thing modified so we can maintain the animation speed.  If an attack takes 30 frames and the recovery takes 30 frames, a 20% slowdown will make the recovery 42 frames (30+12 from a total anim time of 60 frames increased by 20%).

[Mor]

Barring the use of abilities or spells, no class attacks inherently faster than another.  Weapons have different attack speeds (and reload speeds, for crossbows and firearms) based on their animations.

What about race, is there any race that is inherently faster? and can we assume that the Weapons formula is used for any attack including the use of spells and abilities?

 

It's based off of the overall action time + recovery time, but the recovery time is the first thing modified so we can maintain the animation speed.

Interesting, how do you determine the interrupt window?

[teknoman2]

 

Barring the use of abilities or spells, no class attacks inherently faster than another.  Weapons have different attack speeds (and reload speeds, for crossbows and firearms) based on their animations.

What about race, is there any race that is inherently faster? and can we assume that the Weapons formula is used for any attack including the use of spells and abilities?

 

It's based off of the overall action time + recovery time, but the recovery time is the first thing modified so we can maintain the animation speed.

Interesting, how do you determine the interrupt window?

 

in short it is a bit like how dota2 or lol attack speed works. 

[Cubiq]

So if your melee is standing still and not attacking anyone in the middle of the battlefield, his recovery time will start to generate again?

[teknoman2]

So if your melee is standing still and not attacking anyone in the middle of the battlefield, his recovery time will start to generate again?

i think you confuse it with stamina

we talk about attack speed. recovery time is the time the character sits idle between attacks. your character swings the sword, hits, and then just waits there for a second or two before attacking again. that second or two is the recovery time and has nothing to do with the stamina

[Mor]

^ pretty much, basically if you are wearing a heavy armor and swinging a Greatswords it going to take you more time to bring it around for each swing then someone who is using daggers and wearing light armor.

 

 

in short it is a bit like how dota2 or lol attack speed works.

I am not familiar with dota2 mechanics in this regard, so it it doesn't answer my questions and I am not sure why its lol attack, it seem far better than what we had in IE games, no?

[Cubiq]

i think you confuse it with stamina

we talk about attack speed. recovery time is the time the character sits idle between attacks. your character swings the sword, hits, and then just waits there for a second or two before attacking again. that second or two is the recovery time and has nothing to do with the stamina

 

No i wasn't confusing it with stamina.

Sawyer said:

If the unarmored character moves during their recovery, their recovery would be paused for the duration of their movement, meaning it's entirely possible that if they hop over to someone nearby, their next attack would wind up following the other two characters who have a statistically slower recovery.

This means that the attack recovery doesn't reset after you move, but requires you to wait for your swing recovery that was left over from your previous attack when you reach the next target.

 

We know that recovery is paused for the duration of the movement. What i want to know is whether standing still will let it generate again, or do we need to specifically have the character in attack mode for the attack recovery to generate again.

[Tamerlane]

^ pretty much, basically if you are wearing a heavy armor and swinging a Greatswords it going to take you more time to bring it around for each swing then someone who is using daggers and wearing light armor.

 

 

in short it is a bit like how dota2 or lol attack speed works.

I am not familiar with dota2 mechanics in this regard, so it it doesn't answer my questions and I am not sure why its lol attack, it seem far better than what we had in IE games, no?

 

Uh... "lol" means the game League of Legends in this case, man.

[Mor]

@Cubiq, yes ,but there is no "attack mode" this how any attack\action work. Swing animation and "cooldown" time until you can swing again. Bottom line heavier armor and bigger more awkward weapons equals slower attack rate.

 

@Tamerlane, ouhh.. thanks, it makes a whole lot of more sense than lol attack

Edited May 4, 2014 by Mor

[teknoman2]

to use an easier example, you shoot a crossbow bolt. recovery time, is the reload time of the crossbow. if you move before you reload it (ie you put in the bolt but havent pulled back the wire), you leave it half armed and finish the reload when you stop. same principle applies to all attacks with all weapons

[Cubiq]

but there is no "attack mode" this how any attack\action work

I was referring to when your character is attacking your enemy with auto-swing attacks, like in all IE games and all NWN games.

@teknoman2 i am aware of this

 

Now let me give you a more specific example.

Let's say for the sake of this conversation that your character is carrying a Greatsword which is really slow and requires 4 seconds recovery between each swing.

This is how the battle will go:

 

1. Your character swings at the enemy

2. Your character is now recovering for 4 seconds

3. But after only 2 seconds you pause the game, and make your character attack a different enemy.

4. After un-pause your character will move towards the second enemy.

5. When he reaches him, your character will now have to wait 2 more seconds before he can swing at the new enemy, as the recovery time has not yet finished.

 

 

Now what I want to know is the following:

If during point 4. i stop my character midway. Make him stand still for 2-5 seconds and not attack anyone. Then proceed to order him, once again, to move towards the designated target and attack him.

Will he now be able to swing as soon as he comes in contact or will he still need to wait 2 seconds for the swing recovery time.

 

The reason i am asking this, is because i wish to know whether or not we can time the next swing so that you could potentially interrupt the caster's casting immediately after you get close.

 

 

Anyway, listen, it doesn't matter. Only Sawyer knows the answer to the question, and if he doesn't answer then there's no point in talking about it.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Cubiq

[teknoman2]

most probably he will attack imediatelly. but only Josh can tell you for certain

[Mor]

@Cubiq, your battle scheme is little off, unless you strike down your opponent at step 1. Trying to move away in step 3 will have unpleasant consequences, due to engagement rules.(http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Combat)

 

Otherwise unless there is some exception to what Josh said above(such as being hacked by a disengagement attack) then the answer is yes. since "movement simply pauses recovery time", then when you stop moving it resumes ...

[Hormalakh]

It's based off of the overall action time + recovery time, but the recovery time is the first thing modified so we can maintain the animation speed.  If an attack takes 30 frames and the recovery takes 30 frames, a 20% slowdown will make the recovery 42 frames (30+12 from a total anim time of 60 frames increased by 20%).

 

It's interesting that you used the term "frame" instead of a measure of time, like seconds. Am I to assume that you are making the framerate adjustable afterall, for those of us who want to play a "faster" game?

Edited May 4, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Cubiq]

@Cubiq, your battle scheme is little off, unless you strike down your opponent at step 1. Trying to move away in step 3 will have unpleasant consequences, due to engagement rules.

I am aware of that, but there exists abilities like 'Escape' or ' Rooting Pain' that allow you to disengage from combat without suffering the hit penalty, and unless the enemy has the 'Defender' ability active, they can only engage 1 character. So if it's 3vs1 like Sawyer described in the example, you should be able to get away without a problem with 1 or 2 of your characters.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Melee_Engagement

Edited May 4, 2014 by Cubiq

[PrimeJunta]

I find these mechanical twists to combat extremely interesting. I'm imagining what it'd be like to play different kinds of parties. All fighters would play like a Roman legion -- marching forward in unstoppable formation, grinding down everything in its path. All rogues would be like a kung-fu movie, with them dodging and weaving through enemy lines to make daring and lethal stabs at unprotected body parts. Rangers would loose volley after volley of lethal arrows as their war dogs hold the enemy at bay. And barbarians... barbarians would be an explosion of carnage.

 

(Of course I hope it won't be quite as easy as that. But I also hope it will have the variety.)

[Endrosz]

 

It's based off of the overall action time + recovery time, but the recovery time is the first thing modified so we can maintain the animation speed.  If an attack takes 30 frames and the recovery takes 30 frames, a 20% slowdown will make the recovery 42 frames (30+12 from a total anim time of 60 frames increased by 20%).

 

It's interesting that you used the term "frame" instead of a measure of time, like seconds. Am I to assume that you are making the framerate adjustable afterall, for those of us who want to play a "faster" game?

 

 

It is highly likely that you misinterpreted 'frame'. I'm 99% sure that Josh is talking about animation frames, since that's how an attack is shown on-screen, not video FPS. It's a time unit, we just don't know the exact measurement (i.e. how many animation frames are shown per second). Probably around 30, that's safely beyond the human eye's change-sensing resolution.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Endrosz

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

but there is no "attack mode" this how any attack\action work

I was referring to when your character is attacking your enemy with auto-swing attacks, like in all IE games and all NWN games.

@teknoman2 i am aware of this

 

Now let me give you a more specific example.

Let's say for the sake of this conversation that your character is carrying a Greatsword which is really slow and requires 4 seconds recovery between each swing.

This is how the battle will go:

 

1. Your character swings at the enemy

2. Your character is now recovering for 4 seconds

3. But after only 2 seconds you pause the game, and make your character attack a different enemy.

4. After un-pause your character will move towards the second enemy.

5. When he reaches him, your character will now have to wait 2 more seconds before he can swing at the new enemy, as the recovery time has not yet finished.

 

 

Now what I want to know is the following:

If during point 4. i stop my character midway. Make him stand still for 2-5 seconds and not attack anyone. Then proceed to order him, once again, to move towards the designated target and attack him.

Will he now be able to swing as soon as he comes in contact or will he still need to wait 2 seconds for the swing recovery time.

 

The reason i am asking this, is because i wish to know whether or not we can time the next swing so that you could potentially interrupt the caster's casting immediately after you get close.

 

 

Anyway, listen, it doesn't matter. Only Sawyer knows the answer to the question, and if he doesn't answer then there's no point in talking about it.

 

 

If your Recovery Time has elapsed, selecting an action to perform will result in the character performing that action as soon as they are in range.  Of course, most melee attacks + Recovery Times are 2 seconds before armor Speed Factor is added in.  Most spells take 3 seconds to cast and 3 seconds to recover, so 6 seconds total.  A caster who begins casting within range of an auto-attacking melee opponent is likely to be attacked once or twice before their spell completes.

 

Wands, rods, and sceptres have a high attack rate but a relatively low Interrupt.  Wizards have a spell specifically for interrupting casters called Thrust of the Tattered Veils.  It does virtually no damage but has a high Interrupt and casts very quickly.

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

It is highly likely that you misinterpreted 'frame'. I'm 99% sure that Josh is talking about animation frames, since that's how an attack is shown on-screen, not video FPS. It's a time unit, we just don't know the exact measurement (i.e. how many animation frames are shown per second). Probably around 30, that's safely beyond the human eye's change-sensing resolution.

 

Our animations are animated at 30fps, so that's the framerate I'm referring to.  A 30 frame anim for us takes ~1 second to complete.

[Cubiq]

If your Recovery Time has elapsed, selecting an action to perform will result in the character performing that action as soon as they are in range.  Of course, most melee attacks + Recovery Times are 2 seconds before armor Speed Factor is added in.  Most spells take 3 seconds to cast and 3 seconds to recover, so 6 seconds total.  A caster who begins casting within range of an auto-attacking melee opponent is likely to be attacked once or twice before their spell completes.

 

Wands, rods, and sceptres have a high attack rate but a relatively low Interrupt.  Wizards have a spell specifically for interrupting casters called Thrust of the Tattered Veils.  It does virtually no damage but has a high Interrupt and casts very quickly.

Can casters decrease their recovery time between spells in any way?

Like a Haste spell or equipping a different Grimoire?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Can casters decrease their recovery time between spells in any way?

Like a Haste spell or equipping a different Grimoire?

 

Casters can make their Recovery Time shorter by wearing lighter armor and through the use of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, which is their personal "attack faster, suffer continuous Stamina damage for the duration" spell (3rd level).