Israel vs Palestine

[Osvir]

Finally some calm! I hope the cease-fire talks go well and that we can see an extended and longer cease-fire.

I despise death. I am a globalist, we live on one planet, we are one race. It's our brothers and sisters getting killed in Gaza! And there are two powers in the region abusing them! Stahp!

I've taken part of lots of discussions, talked to Palestinians, talked to Israelis and been active in debating and researching the matter. Objectively looked at both sides, what is going on "in the now" so to speak. I know Israel left Gaza a long time ago, but the blockade is still up, I know Israel has treated Gaza really bad and punished them and that Israel has been arrogant. This is another equation however, and the one I want to talk about is the conflict at hand, going on right now.

Let's not look 60 years into the past. Chronology: 
In late 2013, rockets started launching from Gaza into Israel. Israel responded once or twice according to the Wikipedia entry "List of rockets fired from Palestine into Israel, 2014". It was not until the teenagers, civilians, were kidnapped and died that Israel began its bombardment, July 7th-8th. This is when global awareness came into the picture, and rightfully condemned Israel for its disproportionate attacks.

The fact remains, rockets have been coming from Gaza since late 2013.

Hamas only claims responsibility for the attacks after Israel attacks.

So we condemn Israel, they are baby killers and monsters. But wait... where did Hamas get rockets from? How long have they been building tunnels? How much time and energy has been spent on war and violence? How long have they planned for this?

In 2007 Hamas overthrew Fatah in the Gaza Strip. They replaced all power with their own. So Hamas may have planned these attacks for 7-8 years. They have been a faction with a violent agenda and at the same time there are violent factions, movements, organizations moving about in Gaza as well. Those who want the death of all Israelis. How much has the West and UN given the Hamas government? Did we "crowdfund" them to spend money towards war?

Also of note, the leadership in Gaza used to be poor, now they are rich.

Israel attacks disproportionately, oppressively, and Hamas and militant factions, ideas, are dangerous individuals. So both sides are fighting a losing battle, a battle of war. Israel is loosing opinion, and Hamas is only killing people. Why?

7-8 years of violent resistance that could have been spent towards peace. Resources (steel & concrete) sent to Gaza for construction, but used primarily to be able to kill Israeli civilians.

Israel have been prioritizing defensive protocols and systems. Israel is one the most defensive focused country. They protect their civilians, Palestine's government and administration does not. 

A few comments on Disqus I have written that also encompass what i say above:

An Analysis:

 

An Analysis by Osvir - a few seconds ago

 

"The questions are..."

 

Should we look away when Israel commits to terror, and only look when Palestine does?
Or should we only look when Israel commits to terror, and never look when Palestine does?
Should we look away altogether?

 

No, no, and no. But, I can't proclaim to be a moral compass for what's "Right" and "Wrong". You make your own decisions.

 

My opinion is as such: I don't like seeing humans hurting humans. The fact remains that Israel is physically hurting a lot of humans in Palestine, whilst Palestine is only attempting to do it and fail miserably, is fact. This is happening. Only men/women who are taking and knowing the risks (human soldiers) die from Israel. And the 4 civilians (that proved to not be Hamas but a lone cell in Gaza).

 

Remainder 1: Israel are killing a lot of humans.

 

Palestine fires rockets. Attempting to do it is the same as doing it. The bullet is fired, if it lands it causes devastation. Israel protects its people so very well, so they suffer no casualities. Militant groups in Palestine & Israel, and people that want death and vengeance "in kind", DO exist in Palestine & Israel, opening the borders to them would cause more violence.

 

Reminder 2: Not all people in Palestine want the death of Israel, but there are those that still want it.

 

There are also factions in Israel that wants the death of all Palestinians. So in turn they must have been illegally indoctrinated as well. Only an indoctrinated human would want the death of another human, crazy, right?

 

Reminder 3: Not all in Israel want the death of Palestine, but there are those that still want it.

 

Reminder 4: Opening the borders would only cause more violence.

 

We can also conclude that there is a lone cell operating in Palestine, Gaza. We can also conclude that some Gazans are either militants or indoctrinated militants. Walking on a fine line between "soldier" and "civilian". A lot of children have died, and elderly... perhaps it is atrocious of me to say but... this is an analysis... how do we not know that the mothers of these children sacrifice themselves purposefully? With intent? Or with belief that "their people" are going to kill "those people"?

Gaza was given tons of steel and concrete, I've also picked up that food aid comes in regularly. International aid funds (donations from ordinary people in the rest of the world) HAVE BEEN, and I can't stress this enough, SPENT, towards weapons and tunnels.

 

Which means that the governing body in Palestine, who are filthy rich today and do not even live in Palestine, does not govern their people towards prosperity or even attempts to do it. The blockade could have been long gone if the Palestinian Governing bodies had built for peace.

 

Reminder 5: Money donated, invested, spent on Palestine have been going into military and violent actions towards Israel. ALL OF THIS TIME. So if you are ready to throw your money at the screen, perhaps halt a bit and -think- and put that other stuff in your wallet for now.

 

Reminder 6: Rockets have been firing from Palestine since January 2014, Wikipedia "List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2014". I was told that everything before July 7th-8th is not Hamas. The attacks still happened. All year long.

 

Reminder 7: Hamas does not claim responsibility for any of the rockets prior to July 7th-8th, when the Kidnapping happened. So Israel shot at Palestine in revenge of the teenagers. Hamas then claim to have the right of self-defense. Rockets have still been firing from Gaza all year.

Solution/Idea: Online Community between two people.

 

How about creating an Online Community where Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians can talk to each other? Albeit behind the safety of internet, but it's a start too, and a beginning of it could be started today.

 

Israeli civilians, humans, and Palestinian civilians, humans, should start talking with each other. Not the governing powers.

 Solution/Idea: Reply to a commentator standing on one side.

 

I said both sides.

 

Are the people closest Gaza evacuated yet? If they are, Israel can stop shooting.

Obviously, because the militants know you will be shooting back, why would they carry with them maybe 1 or 2 salvos? Because appearantly Hamas spends time on its war strategy.

 

Why carry 5 rockets when you know you are only going to be able to shoot 1, and then get shot at? If you see rockets from Palestine from one area, wait a couple of hours, maybe a full day. See what happens in the world and what happens in Palestine.

 

If the Israel Government wants public opinion from Palestine, then I think Israel should show the Palestinian people the real problem.

 

Recipe for one solution to a cease-fire:

 

This will take at least 1 week up to 1 month, patience required:
1. Evacuate inhabitants closest to Gaza. And let everyone in Tel Aviv or safer areas have open arms to those who seek protection and shelter for their families.
2. Don't shoot back for one day. See what happens. No change? Go back to plan A and pretend this never happened.
3. Violence starts to cease and become less frequent? Start talking, create an Online Community for Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians where they can talk indisturbed without the influence of the world. Locked to Israel & Palestine servers. It is important that the PEOPLE on both sides start talking to each other, NOT the Governments.

 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Osvir

[TrashMan]

your reply/quote nonsense is... nonsense

 

first o' all, history is indeed useful at times. the US methods were, in the long run, very successful. nuke 2 cities "into oblivion" were less than would have occurred if the US had to invade.

 

Except it didn't have to. Not anymore than the US HAD to invade Iraq.

 

 

 

what does korea and ussr have to do with anything? you is mindblowing obtuse. the post ww2 situation were mighty freaking tense. to leave two angry military powers largely in tact were foolish beyond reason. the US, at the end o' ww2 were already planning on how they were gonna need deal with the soviet and other threats. add a constant threat o' reemerging japan in the pacific and germany in europe would' been insane, but we suspect we is talking to the wind at this point.

 

Again with the nebulous future. If you plan to exterminate future threats, better exterminate EVERYONE then.

Wht future japan threat? Japan had NOTHING left. It would have to be beyond insane to attack a post-WW2 USA with 20000 nukes.

 

 

 

 

and making it obvious that you won't invade is strengthening or weakening your bargaining position? germany had been crushed after ww1, but there weren't near enough oversight o' german industry to be making sure that they didn't rebuild their military industrial complex. ask japanese and germans after ww2 to demilitarize 'cause it is the right thing to do would no doubt be very effective.

 

And how are you making it obvious?

 

Is my bargaining position stronger or weaker if I'm pointing the gun at you? Kinda hard to talk if I happen to be shooting.

 

 

 

your childish notions o' right woulda' cost many lives and woulda' probable seen soviet in control o' hokkaido, at the very least. oh, and it woulda' had US and europeans making the exact same mistake they made after ww1. good idea.

 

Funny thing about right and wrong is that it is widely considered subjective.

Call my notions childish?

Go ahead. I consider yours retarded.

I guess moralizing comes easy when you're always paying the price in other peoples lives?

[TrashMan]

"Only after you admit to being a ditry, unwashed, unecudated redneck pedophile canibalistic hooker who was abducted by space aliens and forced into a weight loss program."

 

I admit it. Now you admit it.

 

Admit what?

[Malcador]

That's what the Isreali kidnappers say. That's not evidence. they could have easily tortured him into confession. I don't neccessarily think that but if you think the anti Isreali/Jew Brigade will somehow think otherwise you are mistaken.

Ah, characterizations of the other camp are always funny.

[Osvir]

Raw Story: Cornel West calls Obama a war criminal for helping ‘facilitate’ Palestinian deaths in Gaza

 

My thoughts in reply to 1:10-1:20:

"Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal"

 

My brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, grandfathers and grandmothers. My wonderful teachers and my students.

Family.

 

Listen.

 

Those accountable for suffering humans in Gaza AND Israel:
- The Likud (political leadership and administration in Israel) and former political parties (YOU are not your grandfather)
- The Hamas (political leadership and administration in Palestine) and former political parties (YOU are not your grandfather)
- IDF (Israel Defense Forces), Military Wing Israel
- Qassam Brigade, Military Wing Hamas, and other militant violent factions in Gaza unaffiliated with Hamas

 

The humans calling themselves Israeli and Palestinian are not the ones who are to be blamed. It is the leadership and those who bring swords to the table. These are the war criminals.

 

Those who are accountable are not Jewish, Muslim, Palestinian, Israeli, Hebrew, Islamist, Arab, Zionist, Middle-Eastern, Greek, African, European, Scandinavian, Russian, Chinese, Indian, Viatnamese, Japanese, Australian, South- or North American or Korean, or Canadian. Why does it matter so much, human?

 

These are humans who are accountable, not some sort of higher entity or being. Humans accountable for spending time and energy, for 66 YEARS, towards war and destruction. Strategic planning, tactical assessments, investments, construction of weapons, transportation of weapons. Training to kill. Indoctrinating to kill. Indoctrinating to hate.

 

The people in power in Israel, and the people in power in Gaza, are the ones that are responsible for all of this. Hamas Leadership took the entire "Syria Fund" for themselves and they live in Qatar filthy rich. This will be important later.

 

Those who are accountable are those humans that made errors in the past, to take up arms and to overpower the other without military possibility. Yesterdays grandfathers are gone, and those humans who follow their grandfathers towards war, and crusades towards ideology at the price of human lives are the ones commiting war crimes today.

 

As we are not our grandfathers, but we are the ones we are today, I am only addressing the latest of conflicts. The one that went global/viral July 7th-July 8th.

 

Why is the Likud and the IDF accountable since 8th of July?
- Because they kill at mass. Women, children, the elderly and men. A.k.a. humans. They neglect International Law entirely. mercilessly. With their modernizationed country and technology, they could easily look into more peaceful, diplomatic solutions without losing any civilians or getting any casualities whatsoever.

 

Why is the Hamas and the Qassam Brigade, and militant factions inside Gaza, accountable since late 2013?

- They have been given funds, that they have taken for themselves. Westerners donations, steel & concrete that the UN demanded be sent to Gaza. Tunnels were built, built for war. Hamas has spent a long time planning, organizing, building, training people to go to war. In fact, ever since they forcefully took over the government in Gaza in 2007 they have had time to plan for war.

 

Nearly a decade has Hamas spent resources, planning, energy, time, to build for war. Do you realize what sort of place Palestine could have been today? Nearly a decade. The blockade could have been lifted long ago!
Rockets have been firing from Gaza since late 2013.

 

Who pays them? Palestine does not have an economy. Do not support Hamas, the Qassam Brigade, the Likud, IDF or other militant factions that invests so much time into war. Build bridges already!

 

66 years on Earth spent. Utter waste.
....

 

And finally, a really hard question to ask oneself:

 

Why can't we open the blockade?
- There is racism in both Israel and Palestine. More violence will follow. There is hatred in Israel, there is hatred in Palestine. Opening the "gates" will only cause more human suffering. Palestine has the right to statehood, and Israel has the right to statehood. We will do everything in our might to help Palestine. But we can not allow humans in power or with violence in their hearts to go free to roam as they please, with the only sole purpose of killing as many humans, of what they percieve as "other side", as they possibly can.

 

It is very sad that this is so, but this is the realistic truth. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner we find and begin to work for peace. Everything else is just stalling for time.

 

Peace. Be safe.

 

Signed:
Human from Earth

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Osvir

[Erez]

Osvir, everyone in every state are to be held accountable for their governments.  In Israel we have elected our government and it has received the majority of the votes. the situation is identical in Gaza were the people there elected the Hamas and therefor are also held accountable for their government (the hamas) actions.

When a democratic country is not pleased with its government there are actions that can be taken to replace that government.

 

As for Israel point of view, until someone else is brave enough to go to Gaza and make them stop from firing missiles at Israel or digging murder tunnels while hiding behind human shields in hospitals, schools and civilian houses I am afraid it will be up to Israel to protect itself. At the moment I don't see anyone else lining up to do the job, Its one thing to send others to their death and pleading to be righteous. Its an entirely different thing to put your own neck at the line.

 

I have put my neck on the line more than once in order to defend the innocents, what about you?

 

Ps - The likud are the ones  behind the peace with Egypt.

[Osvir]

Erez: The thing is, Israel is "Project Eternity" Kickstarter, it has much more resources than the tiny Kickstarters that do not get enough funds.

IDF/Likud could have looked into other options, without any death or extremely limited death on either side, but they pushed the buttons and chose death. They could have gone full defense, evacuated the people from the immediate danger zone, full turtle and called for the help of the World. But where were they? They didn't ask for the worlds help. It's almost as if they want to wipe Gaza away, but they hesitate still... the idea is still being juggled: "Genocide". Because that's the quick-fix solution, but with most worst consequences.

Why? Humans calling themselves "Jews" have monopol on mainstream media. If they had pushed a couple of buttons it would have been worldwide news! Why didn't they ask for help from the world?

Militant forces have been shooting rockets from Gaza since late 2013, the Hamas is corrupt, I can understand why IDF/Likud pushed those buttons and chose this solution (They don't even want Palestine there to begin with!). That doesn't make me like the situation any more.

The fact remains that the IDF and the Likud has pushed buttons that have caused war crimes. And the Hamas, Qassam Brigade, has also pushed buttons that have caused war crimes. Hamas has commited International Crimes, and Governmental Crimes, against their own people.

It is the humans in Gaza that are the victims and innocents, and those are the ones we need protect.

At your "PS": Likud has done many great things, I am sure, and the IDF is doing great things in protecting its humans under its wing, but it disregards any other human as a "downgrade". It is arrogant. Many Israelis speak as if they are above other humans, specially those in power in Israel. Imagine if Israel built to protect the worlds humans instead of protecting Israels humans!

The same thing goes for Hamas and the Qassam Brigade. They are arrogant, and they speak as if they are above other humans. I know this because I have spoken with an extreme islamist, who told me I was not worth as much as him. The same thing goes for extreme Judaism and extreme Christianity. These humans believe they are worth more than any other human because of their Faith.

A solution I have brought to the table time and time again in this conflict:

Create an Online Community for Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians. Break the ice. Build bridges. Let them talk to each other in a form of "Kickstarter Community", with "developers" at the had of it (just like we do it here under the Pillars of Eternity category) and the people underneath it. With Progress Updates ("this is what we have succeeded thus far"), Stretch Goals (not crowdfunding but "stretch" goals as in "this is what we are aiming towards").

Lock this Online Community to Palestinian and Israeli internet protocols and servers. This is a matter that Palestine and Israel needs to work out among themselves and should not be disturbed by the worldwide internet population. An Online Community creates a safe environment for both Palestinian and Israelis, in their own living rooms!

State a clear goal, what is it that is being developed, debated, discussed on this Israel-Palestine Development Community? Peace of course.

One of the largest problems I see in this conflict is that I only see Israeli and Palestinian Presidents/Powers/Government INDIRECTLY speaking with one another. How humanly mature is that in this conflict/situation? Will that solve anything? No.

What we need is the PEOPLE'S VOICE to talk to each other. Not the leaderships. Hamas supporters were at some 15-20% before the conflict began, last number I saw it was at 40%. The IDF and the Likud are the cause to the problem in Gaza, because they think that pouring oil on a fire is a good solution. I have also heard IDF OFFICIALS say "If we don't attack Gaza we will look weak and militant factions will appear all over the world". FALSE.

ISIS began their movements AFTER Israel attacked Gaza in their brutal way.

In the beginning, there will be wildfire, people on both sides will troll, they will be aggressive and hostile. But when the storm has calmed, there will be light.

Harsh words, after all, does not hurt anyone as much as sharp blades.

EDIT: The people who vote those to power are not to be accountable. The people in power are those who push buttons, and decide what to do and when to do it, years ahead of time. Planning, energy, time. The people in Israel and in Palestine just want the comfort of LIFE, like any other sane human. The people who are violent and would kill any Jew still exist in Gaza, and the people who are violent and would kill any Palestinian still exist in Israel. So you can't give either side "Freedom of Movement" in either country/land.

 

Even though both Hamas and the Likud were voted to power by the people, it then becomes (indirectly) their fault, chronologically, but it isn't the people who decides which buttons to press. That's the Likud and the Hamas jobs and purpose as a government, to make all the decision for the people. And the way the IDF and the Likud handled this situation was a bad bad move.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Osvir

[Erez]

Osvir. I appriceate your kind intentions of bring global peace and all.

But going full turtle is the opposite of what you are supposed to be doing in war situations.

In war, in order to save most life you go on the offensive. Going defensive means you will only be inviting for more attacks.

Take war world 2 for example, the allies appeasing style regarding Czech only fueled further the german war machine turning Europe into a mass grave of millions, leaving many cities in utter destructions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

 

Defensive as a strategy is bad, bad bad...

 

And don't let yourself to be confused there is almost no difference between the gaza elected Hamas and Isis. They use the same tactics and the share the same agenda.

Which is why hamas are looked so frownly upon in eygpt.

 

On the opposite of what you think Hamas is a well funded Kickstarter project, they are the military branch of Qatar and Iran both countries are 'shining examples' of Human rights and democracy.

 

Words are nice, but when someone is trying to kill you bullets are better. If you tried going about your way in all of obsidian games by just talking  you would be dead pretty soon.

 

 

Here is a link about the person who saved most lives in 1930-1950 and maybe even the entire 20 centaury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

Edited August 13, 2014 by Erez

[Malcador]

If they'd used less missile and bombs, don't think there'd be much outrage. Hard to think those would be needed militarily anyway, what with the enemy being infantry.

[Osvir]

I disagree Ezer. You speak how we saved lives in the past by going to war.

This isn't the past, this is the present. We make our choices today, YOU are not your grandfather.

You KNOW that most lives are saved by NOT going to war.

This is a war between the Likud and the Hamas, the Qassam Brigade and the IDF.

The people in Palestine are resisting the oppression.

What we are seeing a war between two religions, and a people stuck in-between resisting this war. These are the people we are supposed to protect. They are stuck in-between and oppression by both sides. Hamas oppress because they can't let go of their ideology, and the Likud oppress because they can't let go of their ideology.

I still stand my point that if the IDF would have asked the world for help, we would have salvaged this situation before it went completely wrong. By shooting back the IDF ONLY caused more PROBLEMS. IF the Likud and the Hamas had focused more on the innocents caught in-between, they would have found other solutions. Solutions that they are capable of carrying out.

It is funny how Israel never asked the World for help. Perhaps they saw this as an opportunity to take back the entirety of Gaza in secrecy, and then the World reacted and now Israel is in a bit of a "F**K!" state. Why else wouldn't you ask the world for help? Why else wouldn't Israel tell the world? What is the reason for shutting up about it for 9-10 months, and then go full offensive? Because we know that there are settlers who want to take all of Gazas land and evict those who already live there.

Chronology:
1. Militant groups in Gaza attacks Israel.
2. Israel does not respond much for 9-10 months.
3. Teenagers die, Israel goes full offensive and does everything towards genocide. Read the definition of what genocide is, and you'll see that Israel has taken all the steps but one, the finalization of it.
4. It goes viral/global and the World says "ENOUGH!"
5. Israel ceases, Hamas fires = Israel massacres, Hamas fails.
6. COMPLICATION

What could have been done:
1. Militant groups in Gaza attacks Israel.
2. Israel evacuates the citizens closest to Gaza (because that would be the safest thing to do for the Israelis)
3. Israel calls for the aid of the world (They don't lose public or global opinion) = They go DEFENSIVE so that the WORLD can go OFFENSIVE, w/ Israel.
4. The World, together with Israel, solves the problem and saves the Gaza citizens and throws out the corrupt leadership in Gaza.
5. SOLUTION

This is not a war, it is a bully on one side that is stepping on oppressed ants, trying to get to the Ant Queen. Meanwhile, the Ant Queen herself is stepping on her own ants. The oppressed ants are those that need saving.

EDIT: Israel should put band-aid on Gaza, not more salt.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Osvir

[Gromnir]

just one thing, 'cause the trash man stuff had hit a dead end and nobody but him were arguing his particular brand o' silliness.

 

"3. Teenagers die, Israel goes full offensive and does everything towards genocide. Read the definition of what genocide is, and you'll see that Israel has taken all the steps but one, the finalization of it."

 

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hireview/content.php?type=article&issue=spring01/&name=myth

 

genocide? what complete and utter nonsense. first, there has never been a freaking palestinian state, ethnicity or culture. the brits arbitrarily drew some lines on a map and sudden arabs living west o' the jordan rift valley is magically transformed into Palestinians?  oh, and that is a myth too. even in 1948 the UN were still calling the arabs in palestine, arbas. why? 'cause egypt and jordan were ruling in gaza and west bank respectively. the arabs had rejected the two-state solution proposed by the UN in 1947. so, it weren't til 1967 that you get UN AND arabs talking about the notion o' Palestine and palestinians. the palestinians don't have a distinct language. is no distinct religion or art or mythology or folk lore. palestinians has never actual had a nation so is not a distinct nationality and palestinian arabs clear not qualify as a distinct ethnicity or culture. 

 

regardless, in 1946/47 you had ~1.8 million arabs living in so-called Palestine. in 2013, thanks in part to the fact that the other arab nations has never granted citizenship to the UN defined plaestinian refugees, we gots 11.3 million palestinians worldwide. the israeli's genocidal campaign has resulted in a significant increase in palestinians? heck, in gaza, the rate o' population increase is 3.5%. even if there is an identifiable "palestinians" that could be the target o' genocide, their numbers has increased quite substantially during the israeli's imagined campaign o' extermination.

 

condemn the israelis for their actions, but use emotionally charged and inappropriate terminology is not helpful or accurate. conditions in gaza is bad. some blame that on hamas as much as israel, but is clear that israel deserves some responsibility. is plenty o' criticisms one can direct at israel regarding the living conditions o' arabs within the boarders o' gaza and the west bank. but call genocide is wrong.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Erez]

 

This isn't the past, this is the present. We make our choices today, YOU are not your grandfather.

 

 

 

Just because we have fast internet and microwaves nowdays doesn't make things much different. the human race hasn't changed much during the last thousands of years, ignoring the hard lessons of the past regarding human nature would leave a person ignorant. Believing other people think the same way you do even though you and them share nothing in common wouldn't result in them changing how they think.

Welcoming a blood lusting murderer with open arms (see the Swedish case) would result in an easy kill.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Erez

[Volourn]

"What could have been done:
1. Militant groups in Gaza attacks Israel.
2. Israel evacuates the citizens closest to Gaza (because that would be the safest thing to do for the Israelis)
3. Israel calls for the aid of the world (They don't lose public or global opinion) = They go DEFENSIVE so that the WORLD can go OFFENSIVE, w/ Israel.
4. The World, together with Israel, solves the problem and saves the Gaza citizens and throws out the corrupt leadership in Gaza.
5. SOLUTION"

 

That would require the 'world' to want a real solution. It doesn't. You expect Isreal to flee like cowards. Yup someone hits me I should run away even if I am capable of defending myself. DOES. NOT. MAKE. SENSE.

 

Plus, 'world opinion' will almost always be  against Isreal since a) Extremist muslims are a huge % and b)  Europe has ALWAYS been extremely anti Jew.

[Osvir]

just one thing, 'cause the trash man stuff had hit a dead end and nobody but him were arguing his particular brand o' silliness.

 

"3. Teenagers die, Israel goes full offensive and does everything towards genocide. Read the definition of what genocide is, and you'll see that Israel has taken all the steps but one, the finalization of it."

 

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hireview/content.php?type=article&issue=spring01/&name=myth

 

genocide? what complete and utter nonsense. first, there has never been a freaking palestinian state, ethnicity or culture. 

 

condemn the israelis for their actions, but use emotionally charged and inappropriate terminology is not helpful or accurate. conditions in gaza is bad. some blame that on hamas as much as israel, but is clear that israel deserves some responsibility. is plenty o' criticisms one can direct at israel regarding the living conditions o' arabs within the boarders o' gaza and the west bank. but call genocide is wrong.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

gromnir, I am not saying that Israel is committing to genocide, I am saying they are taking all the steps towards the definition of it.

 

 

This isn't the past, this is the present. We make our choices today, YOU are not your grandfather.

 

 

Just because we have fast internet and microwaves nowdays doesn't make things much different. the human race hasn't changed much during the last thousands of years, ignoring the hard lessons of the past regarding human nature would leave a person ignorant. Believing other people think the same way you do even though you and them share nothing in common wouldn't result in them changing how they think.

Welcoming a blood lusting murderer with open arms (see the Swedish case) would result in an easy kill.

 

If your father commits a crime, was it your fault? If you commit a crime, was it your fathers fault?

 

"What could have been done:

1. Militant groups in Gaza attacks Israel.

2. Israel evacuates the citizens closest to Gaza (because that would be the safest thing to do for the Israelis)

3. Israel calls for the aid of the world (They don't lose public or global opinion) = They go DEFENSIVE so that the WORLD can go OFFENSIVE, w/ Israel.

4. The World, together with Israel, solves the problem and saves the Gaza citizens and throws out the corrupt leadership in Gaza.

5. SOLUTION"

 

That would require the 'world' to want a real solution. It doesn't. You expect Isreal to flee like cowards. Yup someone hits me I should run away even if I am capable of defending myself. DOES. NOT. MAKE. SENSE.

 

Plus, 'world opinion' will almost always be  against Isreal since a) Extremist muslims are a huge % and b)  Europe has ALWAYS been extremely anti Jew.

No I don't expect Israelis to flee like cowards. Evacuate is not cowardly if you save lives in doing it. Get the worlds help, because obviously they want a stop to whatever the IDF has been doing. World opinion will ALWAYS be against Israel, because of what is done to Gaza. By the IDF. Gaza was put back several years (let's say, 5-6) because of Israels attacks during THIS conflict (not the conflicts of our grandfathers, but the conflict where you are pushing the button). This will have massive impact on the future in their lives, and 7 years of warmongering by Hamas and focus by Hamas. A total of 12-13 years, gone. Wasted.

 

What the Hamas and other militant violent organizations in Gaza is doing is not okay, and what the Likud is ordering to be done to Gaza, is not okay either. Our people are caught in between between two war-button pushing governments.

 

If a man walks into a bar and starts poking on a man with a solid steel shield, is it okay for the man with the shield to lift his sword and slaughter everyone around him? In the middle ages this would have been a crime and you would have been hunted down.

 

I am not anti-Jew, -Muslim, -Israeli, - Palestinian, -MiddleEastern, -African, -European etc., I am pro-Human.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Osvir

[Osvir]

World opinion will ALWAYS be against Israel, because of what is done to Gaza. 

 

Correction: World opinion will always be against Israel as long as Gaza is treated the way it is. And really, the government the world should be putting pressure on is Hamas and leaderships that plan for war for nearly a decade.

 

The world would be putting all pressure on the Hamas had Israel spoken to the world, now the world first put a lot of pressure on the Likud and the IDF, and then later realizing and still waking up to the idea that Hamas and Qassam is doing wrong too.

[Wrath of Dagon]

"What could have been done:

1. Militant groups in Gaza attacks Israel.

2. Israel evacuates the citizens closest to Gaza (because that would be the safest thing to do for the Israelis)

3. Israel calls for the aid of the world (They don't lose public or global opinion) = They go DEFENSIVE so that the WORLD can go OFFENSIVE, w/ Israel.

4. The World, together with Israel, solves the problem and saves the Gaza citizens and throws out the corrupt leadership in Gaza.

5. SOLUTION"

 

That would require the 'world' to want a real solution. It doesn't. You expect Isreal to flee like cowards. Yup someone hits me I should run away even if I am capable of defending myself. DOES. NOT. MAKE. SENSE.

 

Plus, 'world opinion' will almost always be  against Isreal since a) Extremist muslims are a huge % and b)  Europe has ALWAYS been extremely anti Jew.

Yeah, the "world" kind of wishes hitler has succeeded. Most of UN human rights resolutions are against Israel, completely ignoring all the other paragons of human rights.

[Volourn]

"The world would be putting all pressure on the Hamas had Israel spoken to the world,"

 

L0L You have this idea of a fictional 'world' that's all lollipops and rainbows and are unbiased. I don't see you or others complaining about Hamas mass murdering Palestinians. You don't see people whining about how Muslim/Arab countries treat the Palestinians within their borders. But, it's just anti Isreal over and over again.

 

 

Hamas  led Palestine doesn't want peace. Eveyrthiing Hamas does is about mass murdering Palestinians and Isrealis. FACT.

[BruceVC]

I am not anti-Jew, -Muslim, -Israeli, - Palestinian, -MiddleEastern, -African, -European etc., I am pro-Human.

 

 

Mmm.....that's not completely true, you are anti-Romance in RPG, so you are anti something

Edited August 14, 2014 by BruceVC

[Volourn]

And, 'romance' is a big reason why humans still exist...

[Osvir]

"The world would be putting all pressure on the Hamas had Israel spoken to the world,"

 

L0L You have this idea of a fictional 'world' that's all lollipops and rainbows and are unbiased. I don't see you or others complaining about Hamas mass murdering Palestinians. You don't see people whining about how Muslim/Arab countries treat the Palestinians within their borders. But, it's just anti Isreal over and over again.

 

 

Hamas  led Palestine doesn't want peace. Eveyrthiing Hamas does is about mass murdering Palestinians and Isrealis. FACT.

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of people I have talked to on both sides?

 

Israelis are very defensive of Israel, and Palestinian are very defensive of Palestine.

 

They care more about fictional borders than the lives of the other.

 

EDIT: But, I think that Israels past grandfathers were and are worse than the present Israel. From my research, Israel left Palestine alone, mostly. Hamas spent 7-8 years on war with Westerns money. The blockade could have been lifted.

 

If Obsidian took all of our money and made a first-person shooter instead of a top-down isometric RPG, people would be angry.

 

Metaphoric paralell. Hamas is counter-productive. And Israels attacks against Gaza are counter-productive.

 

Well... Israels attacks makes us discuss, debate and talk.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Osvir

[BruceVC]

 

"The world would be putting all pressure on the Hamas had Israel spoken to the world,"

 

L0L You have this idea of a fictional 'world' that's all lollipops and rainbows and are unbiased. I don't see you or others complaining about Hamas mass murdering Palestinians. You don't see people whining about how Muslim/Arab countries treat the Palestinians within their borders. But, it's just anti Isreal over and over again.

 

 

Hamas  led Palestine doesn't want peace. Eveyrthiing Hamas does is about mass murdering Palestinians and Isrealis. FACT.

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of people I have talked to on both sides?

 

Israelis are very defensive of Israel, and Palestinian are very defensive of Palestine.

 

They care more about fictional borders than the lives of the other.

 

 

I agree with this to a certain degree. In South Africa as far as the general Jewish or Muslim communities are concerned there is almost no objectivity in debates around what is happening in Gaza. So everyday we are subjected to people on radio stations saying things like " the media is biased  towards us " and  "no one knows the truth "

[NWN_babaYaga]

Well,

 

if this conflict wouldnt cause a lot of suffering and dead people i would just say... f*** you all and keep these things for yourself because it´s getting childish after 50 years or so of the same stuff on and on. But to know that this conflict sucks us all in in a way or another because of our governments it´s a very difficult thing to talk about. The israelis on one hand know much more about the arab mentality of showing weakness then we europeans or americans do and I´m sure they want peace but not in a condition where they never know if not some mentaly disturbed guy bombs away ordinary people. Also the history of the jews is something we cant forget after WW2 and the "german" thing maybe they are a little bit ... how to say. They just dont like the idea of becoming a victim again in whatever situation or place they are. And that is somewhat very understandable too. 2000 years of a jesus curse is not easily forgotten if you know it´s all just fiction and for that they were seen as something bad by nature.

 

But i dont make a stand realy except that israel surely is the only "normal" society that does something with their land and are dedicated while look at the lands that surrounds them... pure chaos and archaic people in power etc. So if i would think about living in the middle east israel would be the place for me. It´s a modern society that is not perfect (none is) but it´s way more my personal thing.

Edited August 14, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Volourn]

"If Obsidian took all of our money and made a first-person shooter instead of a top-down isometric RPG, people would be angry."
 

Horrible comparison. I doubt very much people would  lob rockets at Obsidian.

 

'would be very angry' L0L

[Osvir]

It's a metaphorical parallel Volo. It is a simplified comparability by a scale of 1:100'000. The game is 1, Israel Hamas is 100'000, if not more, in comparison.

EDIT: Corrected with a strike-through. Hamas is spending all money on war efforts and they have been doing it for a very long time, with the Westerners and the Worlds funding. In the same sense of Kickstarter, is this the investments that Hamas should have spent time and planning on?

They have shot rockets intended to kill. If Israel didn't defend itself so well, more death would have been on the Israeli side.

The Hamas and the Qassam Brigade will be persecuted for their crimes.
So will the Likud and the IDF.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Osvir

[Erez]

The Hamas and the Qassam Brigade will be persecuted for their crimes.

So will the Likud and the IDF.

 

I still await to see where this peace corps will be coming from, from what I seen and heard about the UN guys, they tend to hide away at the first sign of trouble.

Much bigger horrors have taken place in Africa and almost every other place in the middle east, yet I don't see people lining up to risk their lives to save the innocents. Most people would rather live. When was the last time you really risked your life to save innocents Osvir?

It can be a very short career.

 

If the IDF acted less aggressively or with more risk to the infantry then many more Israelis would have died, the thing about us Israelis is that unlike Hamas we don't make a habit of turning ourselves into martyrs  in order to appease public opinion, if you want to stop death of civilians help then you should do all in your power to prevent Hamas from using the people of Gaza as human shields. Reporters who have now left Gaza are now releasing the truth about what happened there, I recommended you listen to what they have to say.