Israel vs Palestine

[Malcador]

Interesting that the killing of a soldier today was labelled as terrorism. But another truce - what are the odds it doesn't last 24 hours?

[BruceVC]

Interesting that the killing of a soldier today was labelled as terrorism. But another truce - what are the odds it doesn't last 24 hours?

 

Yeah, we will see. But this one is  "different", brokered by Egypt and suppose to last 72 hours so hopefully it will be adhered to?

[Gromnir]

brokered by Egypt isn't helpful. idf pulling out of gaza during ceasefire IS cause for some measure o' optimism.

 

...

 

the best thing that could happen is for the right-wing Zionists in israel and all hamas "politicians" to shut the heck up for a couple a days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Erez]

 

She has tried for a strategic relationship with Turkey, but Islamism (I don't mean militant Islam as such) is in the ascendancy there. Remember the PM and his ludicrous twitter and FB crackdown.

 

Meh, I don't like Erdogan much at all but he certainly wasn't to blame for the frigid relationship with Israel. Israel started the whole thing with a truly moronic stunt and then outright murdered (note the number of times 'shot in the back of the head' turns up; you can also read the 66 page UN report on the matter if you want) a number of Turkish nationals.

 

 

Can you really be this naïve?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/sets/72157624179998488/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsLW5WjlH6g

 

I agree it was moronically handled by the Israeli government, there were much better ways to disable the ship that would have reduced the friction a lot, at the time we were suffering from commando elite who tended to push their commandos for every assignment.  But it doesn't change the fact that there was nothing humanitarian about the Marmara.

 

 

 

. Real history and knowledge points to an invasion of Palestine by a bunch of foreigners under the manta of 'Zionism', who have hijacked (in the minds of many) what it means to be Jewish, actually having the audacity to assert that they speak for all Jews everywhere. Nevermind that a very sizable amount of the Jewish people in this world do not support Israel and are appalled by the evil perpetrated there. There are even many Israelis at this point that are appalled by the evil perpetrated by those that run things there. Real history shows that those invaders ultimately were able to convince and coerce other foreign entities to support them in their invasion.

 

What's happening in Gaza is murder folks. Plain and simple murder. The goal is the eradication of the Palestinian peoples. If you think it is otherwise, you don't know your history, nor do you know the motives of those who run Israel, or how they view people who are not the 'chosen' in the eyes of their God. [Tip: They have more respect for cows.]

 

 

Really? http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/25/seven-years-later-gazas-reality-under-hamas/

 

You coat the Israelis Zionist with the evil allure, while presenting yourself as a student of history at the same time.

The history of the region is much more complicated than that of European invaders, its a big philosophic and historical debate, this is why these territories are disputed. The claim of the arabs in Israel whose majority origin  is from nearby Arab states and have immigrated to Israel in the 18 and 19 centaury is on the same ground of the jews of live in Israel whose majority immigrated in the 18 and 19 centaury.

Its is also important to note that there are 2 million none jews living in Israel. Far more than there were back when Israel was wasteland, far more than the number they were in 1948, and don't kid yourself, Israel was a wasteland before the jews begun to immigrate to it In masses following late 18 centaury.

 

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/palestinian_truth.htm

 

 

This is just a taste of the region short history, in order to truly understand the conflict you have to read back at least three thousand years.

Until that happens I assume it is easier to pick the side of the people of gaza elected hamas over the people of Israel after all they are such a swell bunch.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Erez

[Zoraptor]

Can you really be this naïve?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/sets/72157624179998488/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsLW5WjlH6g

 

I agree it was moronically handled by the Israeli government, there were much better ways to disable the ship that would have reduced the friction a lot, at the time we were suffering from commando elite who tended to push their commandos for every assignment.  But it doesn't change the fact that there was nothing humanitarian about the Marmara.

 

Actually the moronic thing I was talking about was Danny Ayalon (?) deciding to be a dong and make the Turkish Ambassador sit on a kiddie couch while he was lectured like a naughty schoolboy, hardly likely to promote goodwill. The later MV Marmara was a whole different class of moronism. Never said it was humanitarian either, just that some of those killed were outright murdered and that is why relations are so bad.

 

jews of live in Israel whose majority immigrated in the 18 and 19 centaury.

 

 

I certainly hope you meant 19th and 20th century there. But in any case, mass arab immigration and the 'terra nullius' argument have been extensively debunked.

[Rostere]

Israel was a wasteland before the jews begun to immigrate to it In masses following late 18 centaury.

 

LOL. This I must say is a really low level of trolling.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/sets/72157624179998488/

 

Those aren't weapons, those are tools. Sure, there were apparently some slingshots, but those are mostly harmless anyway.

[Rostere]

Wonder what the US gets out of this relationship with Israel, anyway. Well, other than votes.

 

Military research cooperation. No, really.

[Erez]

 

Israel was a wasteland before the jews begun to immigrate to it In masses following late 18 centaury.

 

LOL. This I must say is a really low level of trolling.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/sets/72157624179998488/

 

Those aren't weapons, those are tools. Sure, there were apparently some slingshots, but those are mostly harmless anyway.

 

 

It was a wasteland, most of the country was barren following the Turkish need for wood for their trains. Do some research and you will see the development of the country in the last 130 years and the large immigration from arab countries into it. a 130 years ago it was a shadow of its former self from the times of the roman empire and Israeli kingdoms.

 

There was nothing harmless about the melee weapons on that boat, you are kidding yourself to claim otherwise.

A sling or a crawbar could easily kill a man.

 

 

 

 

Wonder what the US gets out of this relationship with Israel, anyway. Well, other than votes.

 

Military research cooperation. No, really.

 

 

That's a strawman argument fueled by hate, Israeli military cooperation with the USA can be found all around the USA army.  The USA is only enjoying exclusive contracts with Israel. There were many times in the past when the USA dictated Israel on who to sell and what not to developed. there are some factories which are no longer working in Israel because the USA wants Israel to by from the USA in order to create more jobs in the USA. Its a two way street.

 

About spying, The last case of accused spy is Jonathan pollard from the eighties, it doesn't mean there aren't more spies. But you cannot claim someone is guilty without providing proofs, governments like to play the game of putting political pressure on their international colleagues by putting such things to the press. Obama did this stunt a few months back, he spoke about making it easier for Israelis to get a visa to the USA only in order to demonize our government later when accusing us of using that breach to send more spies. 

 

About spying in general, everyone has spies, including the USA. I recommend making a short to find which friendly countries spied on the USA lately and opposite.

 

http://rt.com/usa/nsa-spies-israel-un-565/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-07-11/news/sns-rt-us-germany-usa-spying-formin-20140711_1_u-s-spy-chief-steffen-seibert-chancellor-angela-merkel

Edited August 5, 2014 by Erez

[Malcador]

http://graphics.wsj.com/gaza-before-after/

 

Before & After photos of Gaza. Interesting to see the effects in terms of structural damage, at least.

 

brokered by Egypt isn't helpful. idf pulling out of gaza during ceasefire IS cause for some measure o' optimism.

 

...

 

the best thing that could happen is for the right-wing Zionists in israel and all hamas "politicians" to shut the heck up for a couple a days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A more ideal solution would be for them to die horribly. But as for keeping quiet - http://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-member-retake-gaza-put-civilians-in-tent-camps/

Edited August 5, 2014 by Malcador

[Gromnir]

http://graphics.wsj.com/gaza-before-after/

 

Before & After photos of Gaza. Interesting to see the effects in terms of structural damage, at least.

 

brokered by Egypt isn't helpful. idf pulling out of gaza during ceasefire IS cause for some measure o' optimism.

 

...

 

the best thing that could happen is for the right-wing Zionists in israel and all hamas "politicians" to shut the heck up for a couple a days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A more ideal solution would be for them to die horribly. But as for keeping quiet - http://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-member-retake-gaza-put-civilians-in-tent-camps/

 

and yeah, the response was as follows:

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/04/i-was-hoping-to-get-a-flat-denial-from-you-the-one-question-wolf-blitzer-couldnt-get-hamas-spokesman-to-answer/

 

the israeli right-wing nutters is being political at a time when their nuttery comes across as a viable alternative to a small segment o' the israeli population. after thousands o' rocket attacks and suicide bombers and hamas "fighters" riding in ambulances, etc., the inflammatory rhetoric is seeming almost justified... is exactly how a group like hamas could come to power in gaza. hamas doesn't come to power until situation gets dire. likewise, righty Zionists keep relative quiet until times such as these.

 

is why we said they should both shut up. the letter nonsense were pre ceasefire. so were hamas politicians suggestion that it were fact that the jews used Christian blood to make their holy matzos. the media is being o' so helpful by stoking fires during ceasefire. both sides should keep their dogs muzzled for a few days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rostere]

Colonialism Must End.

 

 

 

Israel was a wasteland before the jews begun to immigrate to it In masses following late 18 centaury.

 

LOL. This I must say is a really low level of trolling.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/sets/72157624179998488/

 

Those aren't weapons, those are tools. Sure, there were apparently some slingshots, but those are mostly harmless anyway.

 

 

It was a wasteland, most of the country was barren following the Turkish need for wood for their trains. Do some research and you will see the development of the country in the last 130 years and the large immigration from arab countries into it. a 130 years ago it was a shadow of its former self from the times of the roman empire and Israeli kingdoms.

 

This is a wasteland:

 

I know, it's a question of terminology, but anyway.

 

I see Israel is doing is best to preserve to Roman-era irrigation systems you speak of. Oh wait, no, they are destroying them, in order to steal more land.

 

In any case, the argument is pretty crazy. The Ottomans cut down the trees in Palestine, so therefore Palestinians don't have a right to live in their homeland?

 

I bet I could do a lot to increase efficiency in agriculture in random parts of Africa, yet I don't go there, bombing people to smithereens, telling them I have a divine right to the land (even though my ancestors lived there once, as all of our ancestors did).

 

In fact, one of the themes of the 20th century has been the abandonment of that principle, the abandonment of colonialism. Everywhere except Israel now.

 

 

There was nothing harmless about the melee weapons on that boat, you are kidding yourself to claim otherwise.

A sling or a crawbar could easily kill a man.

 

A stone could kill a man as well, luckily the police in civilized countries don't just go around executing people who have stones in their gardens.

 

Israeli military cooperation with the USA can be found all around the USA army.  The USA is only enjoying exclusive contracts with Israel. There were many times in the past when the USA dictated Israel on who to sell and what not to developed. there are some factories which are no longer working in Israel because the USA wants Israel to by from the USA in order to create more jobs in the USA. Its a two way street.

 

"The USA is only enjoying exclusive contracts with Israel"

 

Wow, you really turned that one on it's head, didn't you. But let's hear more. I'm not being rhetorical, I'm sincerely interested.

 

 

About spying, The last case of accused spy is Jonathan pollard from the eighties, it doesn't mean there aren't more spies.

 

And in the article:

 

"After denying for over a decade that Pollard was its paid agent, Israel apologized and promised not to spy on U.S. soil again. Since then, more Israeli spies have been arrested and convicted by U.S. courts."

 

And additionally, a lot of spying is being done without anyone being indicted, and/or done in cyberspace.

 

 

But you cannot claim someone is guilty without providing proofs, governments like to play the game of putting political pressure on their international colleagues by putting such things to the press. Obama did this stunt a few months back, he spoke about making it easier for Israelis to get a visa to the USA only in order to demonize our government later when accusing us of using that breach to send more spies.

 

About spying in general, everyone has spies, including the USA. I recommend making a short to find which friendly countries spied on the USA lately and opposite.

 

I'm not really interested in any way in defending US intelligence policy, you know.

 

the israeli right-wing nutters is being political at a time when their nuttery comes across as a viable alternative to a small segment o' the israeli population. after thousands o' rocket attacks and suicide bombers and hamas "fighters" riding in ambulances, etc., the inflammatory rhetoric is seeming almost justified... is exactly how a group like hamas could come to power in gaza. hamas doesn't come to power until situation gets dire. likewise, righty Zionists keep relative quiet until times such as these.

 

The problem is that it is not a small segment. This is from the deputy speaker of the Knesset, member of the largest (and ruling) party in Israel:

 

""This is our country – our country exclusively," he says on his Facebook page, "including Gaza." Calling for the "conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters," Feiglin rants that Israel must "turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians."

 

Jaffa was ethnically cleansed of Palestinians by the Jewish terrorist group Irgun in an operation begun on May 13, 1948, the day before Israel declared statehood: most of the Arab population was driven from the city, and many were murdered in the streets, their homes looted. In another reprise of Clio’s wicked sense of irony, the 4,000 remaining Arabs were forced into officially-designated ghettoes – and the city was repopulated by Jews, who were granted "legal" title to what was formerly Palestinian property."

 

In other words, he is openly calling for ethnic cleansing, and for a religious right to the land. It is needless to say that if a politician would have said anything similar in any halfway civilized state they would be chased out of parliament by a hailstorm of rotten vegetables. If the author of the quote above had been born in a different country, he would have been a member of BNP, Golden Dawn or Jobbik. It's the same policies, but in different nations.

[Bester]

Israeli offensive on Gaza kills 408 children -- UNICEF

 

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Bester

[Volourn]

"After denying for over a decade that Pollard was its paid agent, Israel apologized and promised not to spy on U.S. soil again. Since then, more Israeli spies have been arrested and convicted by U.S. courts."

 

And additionally, a lot of spying is being done without anyone being indicted, and/or done in cyberspace.

"

 

Oh, please. Like the US doesn't spy on Isreal, or other countries including allies.

[Gromnir]

and anytime some nut-job republican or democrat in the US says something stoopid folks like ros pretend that it is the US saying the stoopid thing.

 

*shakes head*

 

fine. lets assume Israel wants a new diaspora. in light o' the hamas charter, which based on ros assbackwards reasoning is representative o' the "Palestinian" pov, and given the fact that since the early 1900s the jews in the lands o' the british mandate has been suffering terrorist attacks and frequent wars o' extermination, such a diaspora actually makes far more sense than a two-state solution. but guess what, as reasonable as turning gaza into the world's largest parking lot and finally ridding Israel once and for all of its internal arab problem, not even the Israeli majority wants such a thing.  

 

silliness.

 

and your history sucks. near immediate after November 1947 un vote in favor o' partition, arab terrorists were attacking jewish settlements. wanna put a side-by-side list o' terrorist actions committed by Zionist jews and arabs? is not gonna look favorable for arabs, but we is game.

 

oh, and while erez overstates wasteland, we can once again quote unscop report if you would like. *shrug* as of 1946-47, 50% o' the lands o' the british mandate were "uninhabitable," and the Israelis has indeed made very impressive improvements in the Negev DESERT and in other inhospitable portions o' the mandate territories. one reason unscop had pleaded in favor o' two-state partition is 'cause the jews were actual making infrastructure improvements in their communities, and those improvements were benefitting all those living in the mandate- arabs included. unscop observed that arab communities were requiring significant UN assistance and global charity if the disease ridden squalor that were the typical state o' arabs living in the mandate before the british arrival were to be prevented from becoming the norm once again. the presence o' the jews, according to the UN, had been a significant contributing factor to the improved the standard o' living for the arabs in the british mandate, and the unscop mistakenly believed that the arabs would benefit from a greater jewis-arab economic partnership. naïve fools.

 

regardless, yeah, much o' what is now Israel were a wasteland, and it were the jews who were improving, not the arabs. now maybe you don't believe that the improvement o' desert and previously uninhabitable lands is significant, but the UN partition plan were adopted in large part 'cause o' the recognition that the arabs had neither the resources nor the inclination to make improvements to the wasteland.

 

CHAPTER II

THE ELEMENTS OF THE CONFLICT

A. GEOGRAPHIC AND DEMOGRAPHIC FACTORS

Physical features

1. The total land area of Palestine is estimated to be about 26,000 square kilometres or a little over 10,000 square miles,40/ but about half of this area is uninhabitable desert.

 

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

 

serious. the zombies who is repeating the palestinian tale o' woe should read the full report. the UN guys only had three months to come up with a plan, but they weren't idiots and they were very much aware o' the problems in the british mandate. unfortunately, the UN didn't have the perspective o' the brits who had been suffering terrorist insanity from jew and arab alike for decades.  regardless, the inexplicable myopia and rhetoric spewing nonsense is not particular constructive.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rostere]

and anytime some nut-job republican or democrat in the US says something stoopid folks like ros pretend that it is the US saying the stoopid thing.

 

No. I have not claimed that any person was representative of the entirety of Israel. I have claimed that a person belonging to the Likud party is representative of the people who voted for them. Since he has not been expelled from their party, it means that such opinions are acceptable. In fact there are lots of similar quotes and even worse. Likud is the party which passes for "mainstream right-wing" in Israeli politics, although party comparisons much more complex in Israel than in the US, due to the fact that there are so many parties. The political discussion there is filled with similar calls for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Here's from Ayelet Shaked of the Jewish Home party:

 

"[...] Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

 

Just imagine what cabinet meetings must be like. "Yo, I think we should consider razing more Palestinian homes, you know, that way they might move away so we can steal the land or at least have trouble raising so many children" "Yeah, that one is popular with our voters as well." "I think the problem with the previous wars in Gaza was that we did not raze enough houses and kill enough mothers..."

 

The current generation of Israeli leaders at least pretend to follow UN war legislation. The next generation? I'm not so sure...

 

20 years from now, people will ask, why didn't anyone stop this madness before? Why didn't the UN send peacekeepers to Gaza and to the West Bank?

 

 

frequent wars o' extermination

 

Exaggeration of the day. I guess you would classify the latest war on Gaza, started by Israel, as a "war of extermination" as well?

 

 

in light o' the hamas charter, which based on ros assbackwards reasoning is representative o' the "Palestinian" pov

 

No. Show me a poll with how many people support Hamas, and by my "assbackwards reasoning" that's how many people I think share that point of view.

 

Let's not be a crybaby, I showed you statistics, you were obviously wrong, deal with it.

 

 

 

and your history sucks. near immediate after November 1947 un vote in favor o' partition, arab terrorists were attacking jewish settlements. wanna put a side-by-side list o' terrorist actions committed by Zionist jews and arabs? is not gonna look favorable for arabs, but we is game.

 

Sure, let's compare how many Jews were driven from their homes by Palestinians with how many Palestinians were driven from their homes by Jews.

 

Arab terrorists attacked Jewish settlements, sure, after the Jews had made their intent clear to declare a country of their own in a land in which they were a minority. I know I have posted about this before, but remember how Arab leaders were very positive to Jewish immigration and a Jewish "homeland" before it was clear the "homeland" meant a Jewish state, and not just a country where Jews were allowed to immigrate and live together with Arabs.

 

I don't know where you live exactly, but let's make a comparison so I can make my point clear: you live peacefully in whatever land you live in. Suddenly, there is an influx of immigrants to your region. They bring good news for the economy, but even as business is thriving and everyone is happy, rumour spreads that they are there to declare their own country on your soil. Eventually, there is a huge surge of immigrants and tensions result in clashes and terrorist acts by militias. The immigrant minority declare a country of their own on sizeable parts of the shared land.

 

Are you surprised this led to a war? Attacks on defenceless civilians will always be a reprehensible crime, but do you think Pakistanis could declare a Muslim state of their own in suburban London? Can Hispanic Americans declare a Spanish Catholic state of their own in California without bloodshed? Where would this chain of events not lead to a war? Who is content with seeing their homeland snatched from beneath their feet? It is our moral imperative to prevent this kind of stupidity to happen.

 

“Actually—and this was where I began to feel seriously uncomfortable—some such divine claim underlay not just 'the occupation' but the whole idea of a separate state for Jews in Palestine. Take away the divine warrant for the Holy Land and where were you, and what were you? Just another land-thief like the Turks or the British, except that in this case you wanted the land without the people. And the original Zionist slogan—'a land without a people for a people without a land'—disclosed its own negation when I saw the densely populated Arab towns dwelling sullenly under Jewish tutelage. You want irony? How about Jews becoming colonizers at just the moment when other Europeans had given up on the idea?”

 

Quote by Chrstopher Hitchens.

[Gromnir]

"just imagine cabinet meetings..."

 

you do that a lot. you imagine boogeymen. do you read your posts? right-wing and left winfg nutters says all kinda crazy stuff in the US. mere fact that they hasn't been expelled from the party is hardly dispositive. and your complete hypocrisy regarding the hamas charter is mindboggling. hamas was Voted into power. has that sunk in yet? so show us the poll of Israelis who is supporting Palestinian diaspora. you not think hamas charter suffices, but you do take one letter by a right-wing extremist during a time o' conflict and make that the Israeli pov. you is getting as bad as zor with the self contradictions and irrationality. you want us to show you a poll but you don't do so. on the other hand, we got the actual charter o' the folks in power in gaza... not just a letter from one guy. so, deal with it. no, serious, deal with it. either supply what you is asking for, or find a similar mission statement on behalf o' the dominant party in Israel.

 

 

and sure, we will compare displaced arabs v. displaced jews before the end o' the british mandate. after that point, the arabs declared war and the jews, surprisingly, kicked the collective arses o' the arab world. you don't actual wanna count displaced arabs After they started a war o' extermination do you? is more hypocrisy if you do. cry us a river for the poor arabs who got their butts kicked by an outnumbered and undersupplied population o' refugees who were having just as much right to be in the lands o' the british mandate as was the arabs. in point o' fact, the UN had observed that the british expulsions o' jews in the mandate territories were illegal and had been so for decades.

 

btw, go easy on strawman. while the arabs in gaza claim to be fighting a war to exterminate the jews, their capacity to do so is less than zero. nevertheless, even if we only start with end of the british mandate, we can name multiple times the arab nations has invaded with intent o' extermination, and even more times they exhorted their peoples to do so through terrorist actions. at least three times 'tween late 1940s and early 70s the Israelis were forced to defend themselves from unified arab aggression. perhaps you is too young to have a good grasp o' "frequent," but for a nation that has only been in existence since mid 1947, that is far too frequent. the last time the Israelis made a genuine gesture for a lasting peace, arabs took it as a sign o' weakness and launched the second intifada. so yeah, am thinking the Israeli paranoia is understandable even if it is ultimately counter-productive.

 

oh, and how many times does we need to beat you with your ignorance before it sinks in? Gromnir is Oglala. we pointed this out to you multiple times now. am thinking we know very well 'bout the sufferings o' a displaced people. unemployment, infant mortality, life span and standard of living at Pine Ridge is equivalent to third world... worse than much of the third world.  you telling us 'bout what displaced peoples must feels is insulting and ignorant and is galling as is multiple times we has tried to enlighten you 'bout our background and you refuse to listen.

 

am not certain why you think the british guy's quote (a noted contrarian who managed to take potshots at mother teresa for chrissakes)  is relevant other than that it represents the incredibly misguided notions many westerners has 'bout the jews and Israel. am not how the Palestinian bedtime story o' evil jewish colonization became so ingrained in the psyche o' some folks, but the myth is more colorful than the reality. the myth would have us believe that in the 1940s, a guilt-ridden Europe tooks all the displaced jews within their boarders and droped them in Palestine, displacing arab women and children and puppies. the jews, whose only connection to Palestine were a thousand years remote, then set about making the land a jewish state wherein poor Palestinians who had been living peacefully in the region for centuries would suffer as second-class citizens. well, dagnabbit, those freedom loving arabs weren't about to let the UN or the Israelis just take their homes without a fight, and so they fight back... like goodly patriots. how on earth did this bs tale ever take hold? why is some folks still reciting the myth as if it were a mantra? it were fiction in 1947 and is fiction today.

 

and serious. read the unscop link above. clearly you hasn't or you wouldn't keep going on with the misrepresentations. am understanding it is long and dense, but it is a valuable resource and were penned by folks who were genuinely looking for a bestest solution for both arabs and jews in the british mandate.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

and yeah, the response was as follows:

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/04/i-was-hoping-to-get-a-flat-denial-from-you-the-one-question-wolf-blitzer-couldnt-get-hamas-spokesman-to-answer/

 

the israeli right-wing nutters is being political at a time when their nuttery comes across as a viable alternative to a small segment o' the israeli population. after thousands o' rocket attacks and suicide bombers and hamas "fighters" riding in ambulances, etc., the inflammatory rhetoric is seeming almost justified... is exactly how a group like hamas could come to power in gaza. hamas doesn't come to power until situation gets dire. likewise, righty Zionists keep relative quiet until times such as these.

 

is why we said they should both shut up. the letter nonsense were pre ceasefire. so were hamas politicians suggestion that it were fact that the jews used Christian blood to make their holy matzos. the media is being o' so helpful by stoking fires during ceasefire. both sides should keep their dogs muzzled for a few days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Well, seems to be something else rather than a response to the quote. Though a Hamas guy is talking to Wolf Blitzer, wonderful journalist that he is, seems pointless to begin with for either party. Eh, I suppose stuff like this now isn't all that harmful, ones that will heed this are already well dyed.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Malcador

[Gromnir]

http://www.redcloudschool.org/reservation

 

http://www.4aihf.org/id40.html

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2014/02/20/aaron_huey_photographs_the_pine_ridge_reservation_in_south_dakota_in_his.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/global/2010/jan/11/native-americans-reservations-poverty-Obama

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/north_america-july-dec11-blackhills_08-23/

 

so tell us again 'bout how we live.

 

oh, and again, there weren't some sudden influx o' jews who were just handed arab lands. there weren't an invading army. the jews started arriving at the end o' the 19th and start o' the 20th century and by 1946 they had bought a considerable amount o' land. such that they represented majority ownership and population in the UN envisioned partitions in the northern portion o' the mandate. the southern partition that the jews were allotted were the Negev Freaking Desert.

 

your bedtime story is so far from real as to be laughable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

 

and yeah, the response was as follows:

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/04/i-was-hoping-to-get-a-flat-denial-from-you-the-one-question-wolf-blitzer-couldnt-get-hamas-spokesman-to-answer/

 

the israeli right-wing nutters is being political at a time when their nuttery comes across as a viable alternative to a small segment o' the israeli population. after thousands o' rocket attacks and suicide bombers and hamas "fighters" riding in ambulances, etc., the inflammatory rhetoric is seeming almost justified... is exactly how a group like hamas could come to power in gaza. hamas doesn't come to power until situation gets dire. likewise, righty Zionists keep relative quiet until times such as these.

 

is why we said they should both shut up. the letter nonsense were pre ceasefire. so were hamas politicians suggestion that it were fact that the jews used Christian blood to make their holy matzos. the media is being o' so helpful by stoking fires during ceasefire. both sides should keep their dogs muzzled for a few days.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Well, seems to be something else rather than a response to the quote. Though a Hamas guy is talking to Wolf Blitzer, wonderful journalist that he is, seems pointless to begin with for either party. Eh, I suppose stuff like this now isn't all that harmful, ones that will heed this are already well dyed.

 

the actual bloody matzo quote were not delivered to wolf. osama hamdan were s'posed showing up on cnn to clarify and wolf were honestly surprised that no such clarification or rejection took place.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, after the fighting that has occurred, am not surprised to hear stoopid utterances from either the Israelis or arabs... which is why we suggested muzzling for both peoples for the next few days. look at ros as an example. he takes an Israeli's right-wing manifesto as an indication o' pervasive State Dogma while ignoring similar nuttery from "palestinians." is best to keeps microphones away from  people in our out o' gaza for the next few days.  the media won't have any bodies or rocket blasts to report 'bout, so no doubt they will be trying to get Israeli and Hamas leaders to contribute news-worthy sound bites. all that needs happen is some yutz with a LAW to work himself into a frenzy over a news story and the temporary peace ends before it starts.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TrashMan]

 

 

Here you go : http://archive.adl.org/israel/israel_sbarro.html

 

If you don't believe my source, you can google it yourself.

 

 

Thi proves a bunch of students did it. Nothing more. How do you go from "some students from a single university" to "the majority of palestinians'?

 

[Rostere]

"just imagine cabinet meetings..."

 

you do that a lot. you imagine boogeymen. do you read your posts? right-wing and left winfg nutters says all kinda crazy stuff in the US. mere fact that they hasn't been expelled from the party is hardly dispositive. and your complete hypocrisy regarding the hamas charter is mindboggling. hamas was Voted into power. has that sunk in yet? so show us the poll of Israelis who is supporting Palestinian diaspora. you not think hamas charter suffices, but you do take one letter by a right-wing extremist during a time o' conflict and make that the Israeli pov. you is getting as bad as zor with the self contradictions and irrationality. you want us to show you a poll but you don't do so. on the other hand, we got the actual charter o' the folks in power in gaza... not just a letter from one guy. so, deal with it. no, serious, deal with it. either supply what you is asking for, or find a similar mission statement on behalf o' the dominant party in Israel.

 

The US has a democratic system which works very differently from most democracies around the world. By game theory, it is only rational for two parties to exist in American politics, in the long term. In a representative system, the number of parties is decided by lots of other factors, chief of which is the percentage of support limit for representation in parliament. In a representative system, if you vote for a party, you increase their share of seats in the parliament, and these are later filled by people which are chosen from a list presented by their party before the elections, or persons chosen from this list by voters, through some algorithm. It is therefore a consequence that you vote for people who are on your party's list whom you did not choose yourself. In this system, it makes sense to kick people out of your party if they have the wrong opinions. In 99% of all practical cases, this will result in the misbehaving person leaving on his own behalf.

 

I understand if you, as an American, do not understand "party politics" because it only barely exists where you live. It makes little sense for a Republican from Minnesota to try to kick a Republican from Maine out of the Republican party, because they are elected by different constituencies. If you get elected, that's good enough. In a representative democracy, it would make more sense, because you would need an ideal list/ ideal lists of candidates appealing to the part of the electorate your party seeks support from. In a representative democracy, it is vital to keep politicians in line with the party beliefs.

 

I'm not trying to defend Hamas in any way.

 

Hamas does not get 3 billion in military aid by the US each year. Hamas do not have a seat at the UN. Hamas is not inexplicably considered "the closest ally" to the US.

 

If you would get to hear such things in the US mainstream such as "Hamas has the most moral army in the world", if Hamas would start killing thousands of Israeli civilians, if Hamas would get the US' support in the UN against human rights violations investigations, then you can bet your ass I would be upset and arguing on the Internet about it. As of now, nobody is giving them any form of support, and nobody is putting forth any ridiculous arguments about how they are the nicest guys in the world, so it's pretty much a non-question. We all agree on the matter.

 

I do track Hamas approval ratings (as far as they are available..) and that is yet one more reason I know this entire massacre is hopeless. Every time Israel invades Gaza, those resisting with weapons will gain support. Every day they lock down supplies and only provide for small parts of necessary goods through to Gaza, those operating smuggling tunnels will gain support. The Israeli right-wing and Hamas are caught in a symbiotic relationship where Hamas acts as a sock puppet/punching bag for the Israeli politicians to scare the voters with and beat up for support, and Israel acts the scary monster only Hamas are capable of resistance against. It's a vicious circle. And yes, when massacres happen, Hamas support shoots to the sky. In peacetime, their support slumps. It is so typical that when we had just gotten a unified PA government which could hold new elections, and Hamas' support and strength had waned because of the peace and of outside circumstance, this **** would take place. Now we get Hamas for a few years more.

 

 

nd sure, we will compare displaced arabs v. displaced jews before the end o' the british mandate. after that point, the arabs declared war and the jews, surprisingly, kicked the collective arses o' the arab world. you don't actual wanna count displaced arabs After they started a war o' extermination do you? is more hypocrisy if you do. cry us a river for the poor arabs who got their butts kicked by an outnumbered and undersupplied population o' refugees who were having just as much right to be in the lands o' the british mandate as was the arabs. in point o' fact, the UN had observed that the british expulsions o' jews in the mandate territories were illegal and had been so for decades.

 

Sigh. We have went through this before. Israel was excellently supplied and equipped compared to the Arabs and in numerical advantage.

 

Yes, we count displaced Palestinians and Israeli Jews after the 1949 armistice. Anything else would be misleading. The British knew what would happen when they withdrew.

 

But sure, I agree the Jews also had a certain right to immigrate in an orderly fashion, but not to declare their own state. Ask any country which receives immigrants of they approve of immigrants declaring their own state on their territory.

 

 

the last time the Israelis made a genuine gesture for a lasting peace, arabs took it as a sign o' weakness and launched the second intifada.

 

Haha what? You really have no idea at all... Get a grip on history. How old are you? You should know better.

 

 

oh, and how many times does we need to beat you with your ignorance before it sinks in? Gromnir is Oglala. we pointed this out to you multiple times now. am thinking we know very well 'bout the sufferings o' a displaced people. unemployment, infant mortality, life span and standard of living at Pine Ridge is equivalent to third world... worse than much of the third world.  you telling us 'bout what displaced peoples must feels is insulting and ignorant and is galling as is multiple times we has tried to enlighten you 'bout our background and you refuse to listen.

 

Let me get this straight... Your point is that you are some kind of Indian and therefore entitled to tell me that ethnic cleansing can be justified?

 

I'd like to see you in a debate against this guy.

 

It is because of people like you who ignore injustices in favour of partisan considerations ("I like these guys more, I'm going to cheer for them") that atrocities can be enabled. It's because of people like you colonialism can continue, because who wouldn't sympathize with the "civilized man" over the "barbarian"?

 

I guess I owe people like you some kind of thanks. Hundreds of years ago, when my ancestors and distant cousins were raping and killing your Indian ancestors and stealing their land, people like you made all of that possible. I can't say it feels very good now, but I'm sure you gave those old Europeans one hell of a good time in America, at the expense of all the Indians. I'm sure my ancestors did not call your ancestors "terrorists", but there must have been other words - "savage brutes", "filthy beasts", "barbarians" - words justifying revenge attacks on your women and children for resisting your ethnic cleansing.

 

There must have been people advocating that the only way for them to feel safe from the savages was to kill them all. "The only good Indian is a dead Indian". Even though I hate it, parts of Europe's wealth comes from your exploitation, made possible by people like you, with your exact mindset enabling colonialism. It's because of people like you Indians live in bantustan reserves, and not have any nations of their own. That is exactly where the West Bank is heading today.

 

In any case, by the mere virtue of your US citizenship, you've had more of a chance in life than these guys. You might be more miserable than me, but on a global scale, you're probably pretty well off with regards to opportunities.

 

 

the myth would have us believe that in the 1940s, a guilt-ridden Europe tooks all the displaced jews within their boarders and droped them in Palestine, displacing arab women and children and puppies. the jews, whose only connection to Palestine were a thousand years remote, then set about making the land a jewish state wherein poor Palestinians who had been living peacefully in the region for centuries would suffer as second-class citizens. well, dagnabbit, those freedom loving arabs weren't about to let the UN or the Israelis just take their homes without a fight, and so they fight back... like goodly patriots. how on earth did this bs tale ever take hold? why is some folks still reciting the myth as if it were a mantra? it were fiction in 1947 and is fiction today.

 

Let me correct you on a few points.

 

The Jews moved to Palestine on their own, although the British colonial rule initially facilitated this, after 1939 the Brits tried to keep the Jews back.

 

I don't consider displaced puppies an important part of the chain of events.

 

Palestinians also committed atrocities towards the Jews.

[Volourn]

"but remember how Arab leaders were very positive to Jewish immigration and a Jewish "homeland" before it was clear the "homeland" meant a Jewish state, and not just a country where Jews were allowed to immigrate and live together with Arabs."

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

\L;et's not forget the Palestinian people voted in a party whose entire mission statement is to completely and utterly destroy all Jews even when said party also has no problem murdering Palestinians.

 

 

Too bad too. The palestinian people deserve better.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Volourn

[Zoraptor]

 

the last time the Israelis made a genuine gesture for a lasting peace, arabs took it as a sign o' weakness and launched the second intifada.

 

Haha what? You really have no idea at all... Get a grip on history. How old are you? You should know better.

 

Yigal Amir was a palestinian, didn't you know?

 

Consider the facts, he came from the geographical region and he was a terrorist who assassinated the Israeli Prime Minister, so he must have been a palestinian- QED, people from palestine who are terrorists are palestinians, fact proven, give up now there is no counter argument. Though of course palestinians don't actually exist, they're not a 'real' people, which is a bit confusing, but never mind, in terms of logical disjuncts that's actually one of the lesser ones.

 

Amir certainly wasn't a nutbar Jew like Baruch Goldstein intent on derailing any concessions as lieberal propaganda would have you believe, because that's simply unpossible!

 

..is not as if we is particularly pro-israeli..

 

HA! Good Fun!

Snigger. Just shy of a month of proving that wrong.

[Gromnir]

Confronting us with a wiki link o’ crazy horse were… surreal. Did that seem like a good idea? We would call it a new low for you, but we will leave actual low-point for last.

 

First, your confusion ‘bout US party system is understandable but not forgivable. Most Europeans don’t understand as they is typical seeing parliamentary system. Is easier to kick a US politician from the party precisely ‘cause the politician’s party is not near as significant as in parliamentary systems, in spite of media attempts to paint everything as a red v. blue scenario. Am wondering if Samm Nunn woulda’ even lost any constituents if he became the republican we all knew he longed to be.  Martin Luther King Jr. (admittedly not an elected politician) were a republican too, as difficult as it is for some to imagine. More than one US politician has been kicked from a party for saying stooped. It will happen again.

 

Parliamentary systems tend to create far more… drama. The Russian guy who called for his bodyguard to rape a reporter?

 

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/21/russian-politician-orders-aide-to-violently-rape-pregnant-journalist-on-live-tv/  

 

Nobody suggested that his party were advocating the violent rape o’ all mouthy females. Duh. Some o’ the stuff we seen from asian parliamentary members is even more bizarre, and more than a few o’ those guys go back to work the next day as if nothing happened. American homogenized two-party system avoids most o’ the drama.

 

"But sure, I agree the Jews also had a certain right to immigrate in an orderly fashion, but not to declare their own state. Ask any country which receives immigrants of they approve of immigrants declaring their own state on their territory."

 

Funny. Israel declared own state after brits left... which were considerable after the UN resolution for partition. Israelis cheered partition. Arabs attacked. Jews attacked. shocking? 'Course not. Nevertheless, were the Arabs resisting partition. Again, your specious rendering o' history makes it difficult to take you serious. And yeah, the brits could determine immigration o' the british mandate. unscop report found that the brits were acting illegal in their limitations on jewish immigration. one o' these days you will actual read that report... or not. so, the brits had a white paper report that were basis o' their immigration limitation on jews, a report they themselves repudiated a year after authorship and did not actual follow their own guidelines for immigration regardless. so, the brits played pontious pilate and the UN stepped in to fill the void o' responsibility. the brits yielded to the UN, so that kinda left it up to the UN.

 

you really need to read unscop report as you is posting blind.

 

As to hamas and you staying vigilant and aware… we still see no polls. You ask for such but provide none. Shame face? No? 

 

hamas were on the ropes before this recent conflict started…  we can show you polls for that. Their popularity were at a nadir. Am expecting that a segment o’ Gazans and Arab Palestinians has had their resolve galvanized, but such stuff tends to pale the first time your son or daughter need go to bed hungry or sick. Once the dust settles, we expect Gazans will blame Hamas as much as Israel for their plight. 

 

Btw, your sucky history has you already forgetting 2006. Israel went into southern Lebanon and bloodied the Hezbollah. Support for the Hezbollah in the Arab world were actual far greater than Hamas enjoys today, so were no surprise when Hezbollah got a temporary popularity shot in the arm… very temporary. Hezbollah in Lebanon has been quiet for years. No doubt the Israelis call that a win. History repeats.

 

Your history about the second intifada is as bad as is Israeli-Arab conflict o’ 1947-49. Which to start with…

George Keenan had advised Truman to back away from supporting a new Israeli state as he felt US intervention would be unavoidable ‘cause intelligence from US and every major world power thought Israel couldn’t stave off the arabs. It were not until the summer o’ 1948 that it appeared as if Israel could beat the arabs, and that were more a matter o’ survival that actual victory seeing as how US intelligence were predicting Israel had a two-year lifespan.

 

http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/us-policy-israel/palestine-1948?print

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MF1948.html

 

the Czech weapon supplies were arguably the greatest difference ‘tween Israeli extinction and their eventual success, but in 1947 virtual nobody gave Israel a chance.

as for Yasser Arafat and the second intifada

 

http://theweek.com/article/index/259597/sorry-there-is-no-solution-to-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/28/opinion/foreign-affairs-yasir-arafat-s-moment.html

http://www.hnlr.org/2012/03/why-camp-david-ii-failed-a-negotiation-theory-perspective/

 

Yasser/Yasir/whatever, had a chance to secure a two-state solution and he pi$$ed it away ‘cause he thought he could get more, More, MORE! What is truly sad is that we suspect that the Arabs would likely jump at an opportunity such as they had handed to them in 2000/2001, but Arafat’s shenanigans made it so that no Israeli politician could go so far again- political suicide to be the idiot who gets fooled Twice.

 

“Let me get this straight... Your point is that you are some kind of Indian and therefore entitled to tell me that ethnic cleansing can be justified?”

 

Your penchant for strawman is cute. Does this approach actual work for you, or is simply a reflexive thing? You keep guessing and making assumptions ‘bout what Gromnir has faced and what advantages we got. Your arrogance is… puzzling. Have not seen any justification for such.

 

*shrug*

 

Am gonna avoid most of your Oglala responses as they reveal such a lack o’ understanding we scarce woulda’ predicted. Using a wiki link o’ crazy horse? For what purpose did you include that again? 

*chuckle*

Two quick observations:

 

““It really saddens me that we’ve got some tribal members that want to accept the money and they don’t realize the harm they’re going to do; they don’t really understand why we say the Black Hills are sacred,” said former Oglala Sioux Tribe President Theresa Two Bulls.

 

“Nonetheless, leaders say the effort to reclaim portions of the Black Hills is now both principled and pragmatic: they “understand that times have changed, that they cannot remove non-members of the tribe from these lands,” said Gonzalez, and are asking instead for some combination of federally owned, unused land and joint management or rental agreements. Excluded from the debate are landmarks like Mount Rushmore, Ellsworth Air Force Base and privately owned or residential land.

 

““We know that people are utilizing the Black Hills for their daily living, and it’s never been our intention to remove anybody,” Bordeaux said. “We have to coexist. But we would like to have some type of a co-management plan for certain parts of the Black Hills.””

 

Having you try and lecture us on what it must be like to be a disposed people is kinda fun, but am thinking you have even less notion what crazy horse or even current Oglala and Lakota would feel and with whom they would sympathize. That being said, as you should see from quoted material above, the Oglala is far more reasonable than the folks in gaza. you mighta' known this if you had actual read linkies.

 

Second point: You Have No Freaking Idea. “In any case, by the mere virtue of your US citizenship, you've had more of a chance in life than these guys. You might be more miserable than me, but on a global scale, you're probably pretty well off with regards to opportunities.”

 

*sigh*

 

You didn’t bother reading the links we provided, did you? Makes us dubious that you will ever read unscop report… which one would think would be required for any kinda serious debate on these issues. In any event, child mortality rates is worse at Pine Ridge than in Gaza. Didn’t have much choice ‘bout moving during year 1, eh? Regardless the moving and US citizenship is clear bunk too. Let’s look at stats, shall we? Average lifespan of male in Gaza is +70.5 years. Male life span in Pine Ridge is 48 for males. Unemployment in Pine Ridge is 80%, which is worse than Gaza. Alcoholism is understandably worse at Pine Ridge given Muslim prohibitions regarding such intoxicants, but the suicide rate at pine ridge has, from time-to-time been higher than in any other place on earth. Population growth in Gaza is 3.5%... which is darn good considering they is ‘posed victims o’ genocide. 4% is the 10 year population growth for Pine Ridge. Literacy rates is better at Pine Ridge, but only by a fraction. Thanks to Arabs caring disproportionately less about the education of their women folk, Pine Ridge beat Gaza by .5% in the literacy category. Huzzah.  Homes with electricity, telephone and running water is more likely in Gaza, or at least they were in June before hamas started throwing rockets at Israel. 

 

Now, try and actual think, if only for a sec. If it were so damned easy for an Oglala to improve their situation, then why has so few done so? Why is the numbers above making it clear that Pine Ridge is a less desirable and more lethal place to live than Gaza? Oh, and guess what, the ability for gazans to leave Gaza were effective imposed in 2006, when the Gazans elected a terrorist organization to leadership. so guess what, the gazans has their salvation in their own hands as much as does Pine Ridge folks, though as observed, the actual plight for Pine Ridge appears more grim.

 

limit folks leaving gaza is indeed sad.  hamas has closed travel to Israel. 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-closes-border-crossing-israel-100854071.html

 

oh and if those is the only problems you see with the “Palestinian” myth, we cannot help but chuckle. 

 

“I guess I owe people like you some kind of thanks. Hundreds of years ago, when my ancestors and distant cousins were raping and killing your Indian ancestors and stealing their land, people like you made all of that possible.”

 

I am hopeful that the above, and some o’ what followed, was the result of poorly considered knee-jerk posting. 

 

as to zor. we ain't pro israel. we is against injustice in any form. painting israel as the villains in this drama is unjust. we has noted many times that we don't believe that israel has been serious about peace since 2000/2001 and we also noted that the idf were clearly wanting to get into gaza. am hardly painting them as innocent lambs, but the Palestinian myth is... laughable. heck, we has infrequent defended even vol. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

"A white-haired man, Hany Mahmoud el Harezen, stood on the roof of his collapsed two-story home.

 

""I am a wedding photographer, I have nothing to do with this war," he said. "Maybe if we had gotten some concessions, it would be worth it. But we got nothing.""

 

am thinking the above may be the most significant observation we has seen since the recent hostilities started. the folks in gaza is going back to their shattered lives and it were seeming all for nothing. a few years from now this same sorry drama will inevitably play out almost the exact same way.  perhaps it will be 2018 or 2020, but reporters will weep on camera and western pundits will howl for change and the jews and arabs in the former british mandate will play their same sorry roles. tragic.