Israel vs Palestine

[Mor]

Today, the outward faces of Israel are still from a generation with direct connections to the USA, Europe and Western values. The next generation of leaders will come from a much different background, one of having lived their entire lives on ethnically cleansed foreign soil. It's difficult to say why the people who instinctively support Israel in spite of everything do so today; whether it is the product of some latent islamophobia or a feeling that you are supporting your "friend" against a "stranger".

Today, any face of Hamas is of Nationalistic, Islamic fundamentalists, whose manifesto advocates the destruction of the state of Israel under the banner of god. Despite Hamas (and various apologists) attempts to re-brand them as taking a political path, unlike the Fatah they have rejected calls by the international community to forsake violence, and engage in peace process. For the past seven years they led to escalated radicalization and Islamiztion of Gaza, showed no intent to compromise\cooperate with "moderate" Palestinian authority in the West Bank or Israel. Who instead working to increase their military capabilities, using aid money to Gaza for their war build up, and instating new rounds of violence with Israel, committing war crimes against Israel (and their own).

 

It's difficult to say why people do not out right reject Hamas, in their tactics lending support to the moderates. Whether it they are consumed by hatred, blind "liberalism"(its bit rant-y, but it get the point across) that worked magic in the middle east so far, especially after the Arab spring; Misconception about Israel (like); taken by sensualized media images; or deciding that it is easier/quicker to accomplish peace industrial quite by bend over the liberal moderate Israel, while feeding them the 'be the bigger man' routine, than working with the uncompromising Palestinians radicals.

 

------------

 

On related note, couple of news tidbits:

 

 

Europe - The 'Gaza generation' seems worried about Arab deaths only when Jews are involved

 

If one were primarily concerned about Palestinian children - whose deaths are indeed an abomination - one would demand that Hamas operatives leave the hospital basements where they have buried their command centers, move the rocket launchers that they have installed in the doorways of UN schools, and stop threatening parents who wish to evacuate their homes when an Israeli leaflet informs them that a strike is imminent.

 

Bluntly anti-Semitic slogans have marred most European demonstrations "in support of the people of Gaza." Residents of Frankfurt and Dortmund were horrified in mid-July to see neo-Nazi groups join hands with Islamists in a grim chant: "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas." The center of London was blocked on July 19 by thousands who gathered in front of the Israeli embassy in Kensington to shout their hatred for Jews.

 

How Europe's Good Intentions Harm Gaza

 

The war between Hamas and Israel can in part be blamed on the massive and unaccountable aid Europeans have poured into the Palestinian territories. The EU and its member states continue to channel millions annually to both Hamas-controlled Gaza and the West Bank, without responsible supervision, transparency or oversight. The miles of concrete-lined strategic tunneling under houses, schools and hospitals are estimated to have cost €1 billion, which wouldn't have been available without European aid.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

 

Another thought, and I apologise if anyone's already made it: how come the brave defenders of the Palestinians haven't built any bomb shelters?

 

That's an excellent question, the explanation is probably got to do around the lack of space and the number of Palestinians who would need shelter, but I am just guessing here. Also there doesn't seem much general concern to the Palestinians from Hamas. I have said this before but Hamas uses civilian casualties to gain international sympathy and support for there political objectives

 

The brave defenders of Gaza has shelters, bunkers and tunnels, on top of using their civilians to that effect.

 

As for Palestinians population in Gaza, I am not sure why would they need bomb shelters (certainly not in the west bank). Unlike Israelis who due to the circumstances have to build bomb shelters into each apartment, overall Palestinians biggest fear is that Hamas would decide to use their property or set camp near by, and then having a bomb shelter would likely make them a prime target for Hamas operatives.

 

Also you are most certainly correct about Hamas tactics, involving PR campaign using civilian and civilian casualties to further their military and political objectives. Or in short:"Israel is using missile defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using its citizens to protect its missiles."

Edited August 3, 2014 by Mor

[TrashMan]

Numbers so far:

 

1156 palestinians dead, 6700 injured - EDIT: (??? Now I'm reading around 1700 dead and 9000 injured?)

53 soldiers and 3 civilians dead

Edited August 3, 2014 by TrashMan

[Malcador]

Another thought, and I apologise if anyone's already made it: how come the brave defenders of the Palestinians haven't built any bomb shelters?

Embargo probably affects that somewhat. I suppose bunkers and shelters are prohibited as Hamas can use those as well as civilians.

 

I guess the IDF is indeed a force of nature

[TrashMan]

 

It is obvious that you are consumed by hate, one of those people who cry "women and children" are dying into the camera, for dramatic effect not because they care.

 

To you, whatever you want to see or hear is obvious, so I'm not surprised.

 

If you wan to peddle your guesses of my feelings and thoughts as facts, that already shows just how "rational" and "not consumed by hate/emotions" you are.

[TrashMan]

 

Europe - The 'Gaza generation' seems worried about Arab deaths only when Jews are involved

 

If one were primarily concerned about Palestinian children - whose deaths are indeed an abomination - one would demand that Hamas operatives leave the hospital basements where they have buried their command centers, move the rocket launchers that they have installed in the doorways of UN schools, and stop threatening parents who wish to evacuate their homes when an Israeli leaflet informs them that a strike is imminent.

 

Bluntly anti-Semitic slogans have marred most European demonstrations "in support of the people of Gaza." Residents of Frankfurt and Dortmund were horrified in mid-July to see neo-Nazi groups join hands with Islamists in a grim chant: "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas." The center of London was blocked on July 19 by thousands who gathered in front of the Israeli embassy in Kensington to shout their hatred for Jews.

 

How Europe's Good Intentions Harm Gaza

 

The war between Hamas and Israel can in part be blamed on the massive and unaccountable aid Europeans have poured into the Palestinian territories. The EU and its member states continue to channel millions annually to both Hamas-controlled Gaza and the West Bank, without responsible supervision, transparency or oversight. The miles of concrete-lined strategic tunneling under houses, schools and hospitals are estimated to have cost €1 billion, which wouldn't have been available without European aid.

 

 

 

1) Ya know, I'm not even looking that negatively at hiding the war assets from Israel inside civilian buldings. Ya know why? Because it's the smart thing to do. Israel really didn't leave much room for manouver, given that such assets in the open would be easy to detect and destroy.  Israel is still the one with the finger on the trigger when the bombs start dropping, so that's where 99% of the blame lies.

Secondly, we only have Israels word that those asses are there to begin with. Every time they blow something up, it's because terrorists are hiding there.

 

2) Every cent sent to Israel harms Gaza.

[TrashMan]

 

Another thought, and I apologise if anyone's already made it: how come the brave defenders of the Palestinians haven't built any bomb shelters?

Embargo probably affects that somewhat. I suppose bunkers and shelters are prohibited as Hamas can use those as well as civilians.

 

I guess the IDF is indeed a force of nature

 

 

Yup.

IIRC; concrete is one of the forbidden imports.

[TrashMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrPyQFM9LNY

[Erez]

I just got back from a month tour in gaza(Tank Fighter)

 

Proportional Response  

   Proportional response in this situation means sacrificing civilians and soldiers for the sideline viewer half way across the world and have zero clue about the situation. In august 6 1945 the USA ended world war 2, if they allowed it to drag on, Japan would have been devastated and both sides would have lost million more lives. In this conflict proportional response means more suffering to the Israeli and Palestinian people.

More on topic and a question for those who think the Israeli response towards the Hamas state is too harsh. Why should Israeli people die just to please the lazy person who didn't bother to learn more about the situation before stating his opinion on the web? I am serious, please, stop trying to kill me.

 

Civic Responsibility - People in gaza voted for Hamas, Hamas is the true democratic government of the Palestinians, if the people in gaza are unhappy with the situation they should change their government, since there are only very few people who dare to speak up against Hamas(they usually end up being executed) The conclusion is either they are cowards or content with the situation. Until they decide they want to change their leadership, Hamas will keep using them as human shields against Israeli retaliation attacks.  

 

 

If you really want to know more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict then I recommend digging deep into the region 3000 years old history and reading more about the backstage politics of the middle east. Key Word - Oil.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Erez

[TrashMan]

 

I just got back from a month tour in gaza(Tank Fighter)

 

  Proportional response in this situation means sacrificing civilians and soldiers for the sideline viewer half way across the world and have zero clue about the situation. In august 6 1945 the USA ended world war 2, if they allowed it to drag on, Japan would have been devastated and both sides would have lost million more lives. In this conflict proportional response means more suffering to the Israeli and Palestinian people.

 

Bulls****.

Millions of poeple? There's no way to tell.

 

Japan was already close to the breaking point. A simple blockade was all that was necessary - heck, no even that.

If you are defending, then the purpose of the war is to push the enemy out of your territory. Once you cripple the army of the enemy, there is no further need for war. Bombing the nemy to stone age, entering his territory (and taking it away) becasue ti's necessary "to secure peace" is BS.

 

Japan didn't have enough fuel left for even a small fleet. What danger did it presen to the US? None.

The US could have just waited it out. But they didn't.

 

 

 

More on topic and a question for those who think the Israeli response towards the Hamas state is too harsh. Why should Israeli people die just to please the lazy person who didn't bother to learn more about the situation before stating his opinion on the web? I am serious, please, stop trying to kill me.

 

And why should palestinian civilians die in droves for the sake of (maybe) a few Israelis?

[Barothmuk]

I have said this before but Hamas uses civilian casualties to gain international sympathy and support for there political objectives

What's that famous quote attributed to Goebbles

 

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

 

Seriously, despite the fact that people keep repeating that there's no serious evidence to support it. The IDF on the other hand...

 

That's a Palestinian child they're using btw.

Bulls****.

Millions of poeple? There's no way to tell.

 

Japan was already close to the breaking point. A simple blockade was all that was necessary - heck, no even that.

Actually Imperial Japan had already been negotiating a conditional surrender to the U.S.S.R (amusingly Stalin was the good cop to America's bad cop), unfortunately for the Japanese the Yanks wanted nothing less than an unconditional surrender to the U.S.A. Edited August 3, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Gorgon]

Doesn't he change his mind later in that episode.

[BruceVC]

 

What's that famous quote attributed to Goebbles

 

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

 

Seriously, despite the fact that people keep repeating that there's no serious evidence to support it. The IDF on the other hand...

 

 

 

No I think you misunderstanding my point, I am not saying that Hamas is using civilians as human shields (they may be, I can't say with certainty) I am saying the loss of Palestinian civilians suits there political objectives  because this increases sympathy and support for there cause from countries around the world

[HoonDing]

Of course the entire operation Overlord and the nukes were technically unnecessary. But foregoing those would have been equivalent to surrendering the world to the Soviet Union.

[Barothmuk]

I am saying the loss of Palestinian civilians suits there political objectives  because this increases sympathy and support for there cause from countries around the world

Those political objectives being liberation from a racist, colonialist power with a laundry list of war-crimes.

 

I'm hardly a strong fan of Hamas but they are quite easily the lesser evil.

[BruceVC]

 

I am saying the loss of Palestinian civilians suits there political objectives  because this increases sympathy and support for there cause from countries around the world

Those political objectives being liberation from a racist, colonialist power with a laundry list of war-crimes.

 

I'm hardly a strong fan of Hamas but they are quite easily the lesser evil.

 

 

Now this is where we disagree, I will take the actions of  Israel which are excessive  over that of Islamic fundamentalism any day. Just look around the world at the likes of Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram. And ask yourself who you would rather have in your camp? Despite the issues around how Israel has acted now during this conflict they are no where near as brutal and intransigent as the extremist groups I have mentioned.

 

And lets not kid ourselves, Hamas is an Islamic extremist group despite how they portray themselves IMO

[Barothmuk]

I'll try and give you a decent response in a day or so. About to hop on a plane.

[HoonDing]

 

 

I am saying the loss of Palestinian civilians suits there political objectives  because this increases sympathy and support for there cause from countries around the world

Those political objectives being liberation from a racist, colonialist power with a laundry list of war-crimes.

 

I'm hardly a strong fan of Hamas but they are quite easily the lesser evil.

 

 

Now this is where we disagree, I will take the actions of  Israel which are excessive  over that of Islamic fundamentalism any day. Just look around the world at the likes of Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram.

 

Bit of a stretch to put them into that crowd. They haven't kidnapped any Israeli school girls yet.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Lets widen our perspective a bit fellas: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-state-fighting-hamas-priority-before-israel.html

But, but, Rostere says all Arab terrorism is Israel's fault.

 

 

Bit of a stretch to put them into that crowd. They haven't kidnapped any Israeli school girls yet.

They happily sent suicide bombers to intentionally kill children. The majority of Palestinians wildly celebrated those attacks and even made recreated bombing scenes for the population to admire.

[TrashMan]

 

Actually Imperial Japan had already been negotiating a conditional surrender to the U.S.S.R (amusingly Stalin was the good cop to America's bad cop), unfortunately for the Japanese the Yanks wanted nothing less than an unconditional surrender to the U.S.A.

 

 

Which is why they were d***.

Prolonging the war (and casualties) for their own gain. Japan lost territory there.

 

History repeats itself. The victim becomes the aggressor once it realises it is powerful enough and takes enemy territory for it's own. It's usually makes as "necessary" or some other BS.

 

[TrashMan]

 

No I think you misunderstanding my point, I am not saying that Hamas is using civilians as human shields (they may be, I can't say with certainty) I am saying the loss of Palestinian civilians suits there political objectives  because this increases sympathy and support for there cause from countries around the world

 

 

By that logic, any loss of civilian life is always going to generate sympathy, thus every loss is in the interest of the side loosing civilians. And thus every side with high civilian casualities is just playing the propaganda war.

 

[TrashMan]

 

 

Those political objectives being liberation from a racist, colonialist power with a laundry list of war-crimes.

 

I'm hardly a strong fan of Hamas but they are quite easily the lesser evil.

 

 

Now this is where we disagree, I will take the actions of  Israel which are excessive  over that of Islamic fundamentalism any day. Just look around the world at the likes of Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram. And ask yourself who you would rather have in your camp? Despite the issues around how Israel has acted now during this conflict they are no where near as brutal and intransigent as the extremist groups I have mentioned.

 

And lets not kid ourselves, Hamas is an Islamic extremist group despite how they portray themselves IMO

 

 

 

If I were to take into account the body count produced by Israel vs. the bodycount produced by Hamas...no contest. Hamas any day.

At least they aren't competent or powerful enough to do as much damage.

 

Not to mention that the reason Hamas exists and gets support IS Israels policies and behavior.

 

[HoonDing]

They happily sent suicide bombers to intentionally kill children. The majority of Palestinians wildly celebrated those attacks and even made recreated bombing scenes for the population to admire.

They're not jihadists like the aforementioned groups. They are fighting an occupation force using terrorist methods.

[TrashMan]

 

They happily sent suicide bombers to intentionally kill children. The majority of Palestinians wildly celebrated those attacks and even made recreated bombing scenes for the population to admire.

 

 

 

I want proof.

 

Also, there are plenty of Israelis who cheered the bombing and casualites and happily called Gaza a graveyard, saying "there will be no children in Gaza".

You gut crazies on both sides that will quite hapilly cheer on genocide.

[Valsuelm]

 

I have said this before but Hamas uses civilian casualties to gain international sympathy and support for there political objectives

What's that famous quote attributed to Goebbles

 

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

 

Seriously, despite the fact that people keep repeating that there's no serious evidence to support it. The IDF on the other hand...

 

That's a Palestinian child they're using btw.

Bulls****.

Millions of poeple? There's no way to tell.

 

Japan was already close to the breaking point. A simple blockade was all that was necessary - heck, no even that.

Actually Imperial Japan had already been negotiating a conditional surrender to the U.S.S.R (amusingly Stalin was the good cop to America's bad cop), unfortunately for the Japanese the Yanks wanted nothing less than an unconditional surrender to the U.S.A.

 

 

Indeed.

 

Almost everything your average person believes about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a lie. It's been a broken record in western media for over 50 years. A broken record of lies. Arguing with people who believe this stuff is akin to trying to convince a devout follower of World is Flat Cult that the world is indeed not flat. No matter how much evidence there is around them, no matter how little thinking is required to comprehend that what's going on is what's going on, no matter how many times they've obviously been lied to, they cannot let go of their world view paradigm and stop listening to their evil priests who know damn well the world is not flat but realize that they need a large portion of the people to buy their BS so they can get away with their evil crap.

 

And when you get down to it, it's these very brainwashed sciolists parroting the BS they're told on the 'news' without doing a little critical thinking that are why Israel gets away with what it does, and other evils in this world are successfully perpetrated. It ain't a matter of opinion folks what's gone on or what's going on. Open your eyes, think for yourselves, and be willing to be wrong. There is so much utter nonsense spouted in this thread and others about so many things.

 

And yea... for the ignorant or naive: Japan was working to surrender before the A-Bombs were dropped. That those bombs 'needed to be dropped' in order to save lives is one of a great many lies and myths commonly believed about WW2. It was pure evil intent behind the dropping of those bombs. Only the naive or fools who listen to the priests of the World is Flat Cult believe otherwise.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Valsuelm