Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Malcador]

Think he meant they should be thankful NATO wasn't more severe (maybe take out more embassies )

[Mor]

 

In news: fights raging around Slavyansk. The units loyal to Kiev are better equipped and are gaining ground. Russians still not really responding apart from propaganda support.

Well, this might end well after all, on a bigger scale - no need for the US and Russia to jump in. Ukraine's probably screwed for a while to come, but seems unavoidable.

 

I wasn't aware that US planed to "jump in", or that that either had any right to jump in, although Russia already has jumped in for a real estate grab in Crimea and continue to exploit the situation as it did in all other NATO leaning countries in the region. Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

 

 

In news: fights raging around Slavyansk. The units loyal to Kiev are better equipped and are gaining ground. Russians still not really responding apart from propaganda support.

Well, this might end well after all, on a bigger scale - no need for the US and Russia to jump in. Ukraine's probably screwed for a while to come, but seems unavoidable.

 

I wasn't aware that US planed to "jump in", or that that either had any right to jump in, although Russia already has jumped in for a real estate grab in Crimea and continue to exploit the situation as it did in all other NATO leaning countries in the region.

 

 

Interesting to see what you leaped on there but if Russia jumps in, the situation gets hotter and the risk of the US and whatever NATO countries have notable forces doing like wise and things getting worse increases, don't you think  ?

[obyknven]

In news: fights raging around Slavyansk. The units loyal to Kiev are better equipped and are gaining ground. Russians still not really responding apart from propaganda support.

No reason for worrying. Selfdefence unit ambushed and surrounded by Junta forses, but because of  sudden couterattack of armored group they are deblocked and retreat to city. This is first serious combat, sides have almost equal loses today, and junta lose yet another helicopter MI-24  ( aka Hind ). In situation when punishers totally outnumbered defenders and have superior firepower (artillery, aviation, armor vs militia with AK) this is really not bad result.

http://youtu.be/bf0OFAfL5Q0

 

http://youtu.be/E7v2KFBTqzI

[Drowsy Emperor]

Think he meant they should be thankful NATO wasn't more severe (maybe take out more embassies )

 

Actually:

Ristic reports that as Milosevic listened to the reading of the text, he realized that the “Russians and the Europeans had put us in the hands of the British and the Americans.” Milosevic took the papers and asked, “What will happen if I do not sign?” In answer, “Ahtisaari made a gesture on the table,” and then moved aside the flower centerpiece. Then Ahtisaari said, “Belgrade will be like this table. We will immediately begin carpet-bombing Belgrade.” Repeating the gesture of sweeping the table, Ahtisaari threatened, “This is what we will do to Belgrade.” A moment of silence passed, and then he added, “There will be half a million dead within a week.” Chernomyrdin’s silence confirmed that the Russian government would do nothing to discourage carpet-bombing. 

 

Which is why he ultimately folded.  It corresponds to the events. The military was intact, the KLA+NATO invasion through Albania was destroyed, his pubic support was stable - he had no reason real reason to give in, 78 days in. So the Russians back-stabbed him and the west threatened mass murder.

 

Tis all history now and no one cares about the truth.

 

It was a weak man's decision. NATO had to "get results" because the bombing wasn't doing anything and alliance cohesion was faltering. There was no internal support for a ground invasion because, even though NATO would ultimately win, the casualties would be unacceptably high. The threat was a borderline bluff. Even if they went through with it, it would achieve nothing except angering the population further. If he held out more the entire NATO effort would have folded. *shrug*

Edited May 5, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sarex]

In news: fights raging around Slavyansk. The units loyal to Kiev are better equipped and are gaining ground. Russians still not really responding apart from propaganda support.

 

I think they are waiting for things to get worse, right now only about 4 million Russian in Ukraine (out of 10) are involved in the conflicts. When the situation escalates to the whole of east Ukraine they will move massive troops and go all the way to Kiev.

 

Kiev has already showed what kind of people they are. Cultist showed the pictures of what they did and it's only going to get worse. Once the Russians get involved there won't be much the rest of the world can say to that.

 

 

 

Think he meant they should be thankful NATO wasn't more severe (maybe take out more embassies )

 

Actually:

Ristic reports that as Milosevic listened to the reading of the text, he realized that the “Russians and the Europeans had put us in the hands of the British and the Americans.” Milosevic took the papers and asked, “What will happen if I do not sign?” In answer, “Ahtisaari made a gesture on the table,” and then moved aside the flower centerpiece. Then Ahtisaari said, “Belgrade will be like this table. We will immediately begin carpet-bombing Belgrade.” Repeating the gesture of sweeping the table, Ahtisaari threatened, “This is what we will do to Belgrade.” A moment of silence passed, and then he added, “There will be half a million dead within a week.” Chernomyrdin’s silence confirmed that the Russian government would do nothing to discourage carpet-bombing. 

 

Which is why he ultimately folded.  It corresponds to the events. The military was intact, the KLA+NATO invasion through Albania was destroyed, his pubic support was stable - he had no reason real reason to give in, 78 days in. So the Russians back-stabbed him and the west threatened mass murder.

 

Tis all history now and no one cares about the truth.

 

 

No one cares and no one would have cared even if they carpet bombed us. Look what they did in Iraq and Afghanistan, they went in to topple a government and in the mean time they destroyed the whole infrastructure of the country, setting them back half a century. They destroyed their power and water plants and now after the war they are getting payed to rebuild the same.

 

The same old conflict just repeats it self over and over around the whole world. Ukraine is just the newest one.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Sarex

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So Serbia was enriched by being bombed, Bruce is some variety of expletive, and this might end without a need for either Russia or the US to jump in, that about cover the last few pages?

 

BTW Malc, is Rob Ford the mayor of the city you live in? How the hell is he still in office?

[Malcador]

Needs approval of provincial parliament to boot him out, if I recall, but no will to do that. He's lost his powers before and now everything as he's taken a leave of absence to presumably do heroin or whatever in "detox" in Chicago. 

 

Who knows though, he might win reelection .  Lots of people in this city are no better than whores, will tolerate any dumbass as long as he promises to make them pay less tax.  Of course they'll bitch about services the city needs to provide minus that money....

[BruceVC]

So Serbia was enriched by being bombed, Bruce is some variety of expletive, and this might end without a need for either Russia or the US to jump in, that about cover the last few pages?

 

BTW Malc, is Rob Ford the mayor of the city you live in? How the hell is he still in office?

 

 

Sounds about right

[HoonDing]

[Mor]

Interesting to see what you leaped on there but if Russia jumps in, the situation gets hotter and the risk of the US and whatever NATO countries have notable forces doing like wise and things getting worse increases, don't you think  ?

The way to deescalate a situation starts with addressing immediate threats (such as armed militias and break down of rule of law), and agitators who heat up the scene preventing dialogue.*

 

As for Russia "jumping in". I think that situation hasn't changed for NATO, Ukraine is still a low hanging fruit for Russia and if Russia choose to invade, East Ukraine will be used as sacrificial lamb, I still doubt that NATO will go to war over Ukraine and will likely posturing themselves safely along the dnieper river.

 

 

 

 

ETA: just noticed the river is missing from that map, so here it is:

 

 

 

 

* Speaking of which I think its about time for Russia to put its propaganda in reverse and actively work on a solution, IMO there is nothing else to be gained here (unless Putin is in full imperialistic mode). They already got away with Crimea, Ukraine is thoroughly destabilized and the rift created between the east and west will continue to work for them, while the result of fighting might sip in and can have negative impact on them.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

Think he meant they should be thankful NATO wasn't more severe (maybe take out more embassies )

NATO war against Serbia not related with Kosovo. By reports of NATO commander, airstrikes damage only 2 % of Serbian military powers, they even perform successful offence agains KLA during this time. Main target of NATO in Serbia is civilian objects, they just destroy Serbia as economic  competitor.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/792557/posts

 

This war caused not by ethnic  cleansings or other pseudo-democratic bull**** (such cleansings happened constantly around the world, but our Western democrats mostly don't worry about these tragedies). This war caused by Serbian rejection of privatization.

http://survinat.com/2012/08/why/

http://saint-juste.narod.ru/yugo.htm

[Drowsy Emperor]

Deutsche Welle writes that support for Putin's policy regarding Ukraine is 82%. So much for the "Russians don't agree with Putin theory".

Edited May 5, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sarex]

Drudanae I'm saving that.

[Mor]

Deutsche Welle writes that support for Putin's policy regarding Ukraine is 82%. So much for the "Russians don't agree with Putin theory".

Whose theory? also so what? iirc in Germany support was really high during that time of the Olympics, when they have been saving ethnic Germans all around ... Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[Gorgon]

It was high altitude and targeted against infrastructure, certainly part of the plan was to damage the economy, to bomb military assets effectively you need spotters on the ground. Every effort to avoid civilian casualties was taken, which is why it was so ineffective. In the end though, it was part of the leverage used to make Milosovic buckle. The west had just had enough. Ethnic cleansing and civil war dragging on and on just a short boatride from the Italian coast. It wasn't going to fly anymore.

[Gorgon]

Funny thing, When I was just a kid my family went to Dubrownik before it got flattened. My dad found a drinking buddy in the owner of one of the tourist trap resturants we went to who told him that it wasn't going to be long before the whole of Jugoslavia would be at war with itself. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If I may make a claim slightly less offensive than the notion Serbia benefitted from being bombed, I think the WH40k universe is a bit boring.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It was high altitude and targeted against infrastructure, certainly part of the plan was to damage the economy, to bomb military assets effectively you need spotters on the ground. Every effort to avoid civilian casualties was taken, which is why it was so ineffective. In the end though, it was part of the leverage used to make Milosovic buckle. The west had just had enough. Ethnic cleansing and civil war dragging on and on just a short boatride from the Italian coast. It wasn't going to fly anymore.

 

You're misinformed. There was no ethnic cleansing, the "civil war",(a rebellion by extremists within a minority) would have been over in a month without external meddling and the bombing went from targeting military units to deliberatelly targeting power plants, tv stations and other targets which have no military value and serve only to terrorize the population. Even the chinese embassy was hit. It was sign of impotence and the goal was to bully the population into submission. 

 

Funny thing, When I was just a kid my family went to Dubrownik before it got flattened. My dad found a drinking buddy in the owner of one of the tourist trap resturants we went to who told him that it wasn't going to be long before the whole of Jugoslavia would be at war with itself. 

Dubrovnik is anything but flattened.

Yet another one of those situations crated to sway public opinion. Its still one of the most popular tourist destinations on the Croatian coast and emerged from the war more than intact. The pictures of Dubrovnik burning are in fact mass burnings of automobile tyres because tyres give out thick black smoke that looks dramatic on photos. The JNA was more than capable of flattening the town but had no inclination or reason to do so.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sarex]

It was high altitude and targeted against infrastructure, certainly part of the plan was to damage the economy, to bomb military assets effectively you need spotters on the ground. Every effort to avoid civilian casualties was taken, which is why it was so ineffective. In the end though, it was part of the leverage used to make Milosovic buckle. The west had just had enough. Ethnic cleansing and civil war dragging on and on just a short boatride from the Italian coast. It wasn't going to fly anymore.

 

No it wasn't in the beginning it was only military targets, but we hid and moved all our people and resources, so the bombings had no real effect. Even when they started missing, as DE said, it didn't provide the desired results.

 

I already told you all of this and I see you chose to ignore it.

[Valorian]

This is the kind of parallel universe propaganda that I was talking about:

 

 

It was high altitude and targeted against infrastructure, certainly part of the plan was to damage the economy, to bomb military assets effectively you need spotters on the ground. Every effort to avoid civilian casualties was taken, which is why it was so ineffective. In the end though, it was part of the leverage used to make Milosovic buckle. The west had just had enough. Ethnic cleansing and civil war dragging on and on just a short boatride from the Italian coast. It wasn't going to fly anymore.

 

You're misinformed. There was no ethnic cleansing, the "civil war",(a rebellion by extremists within a minority) would have been over in a month without external meddling and the bombing went from targeting military units to deliberatelly targeting power plants, tv stations and other targets which have no military value and serve only to terrorize the population. Even the chinese embassy was hit. It was sign of impotence and the goal was to bully the population into submission. 

 

Funny thing, When I was just a kid my family went to Dubrownik before it got flattened. My dad found a drinking buddy in the owner of one of the tourist trap resturants we went to who told him that it wasn't going to be long before the whole of Jugoslavia would be at war with itself. 

Dubrovnik is anything but flattened. Yet another one of those situations crated to sway public opinion. Its still one of the most popular tourist destinations on the Croatian coast and emerged from the war more than intact. The pictures of Dubrovnik burning are in fact mass burnings of automobile tyres because tyres give out thick black smoke that looks dramatic on photos. The JNA was more than capable of flattening the town but had no inclination or reason to do so.

 

 

 

For people who would like to learn some facts, specifically about the bombardment of Dubrovnik (a UNESCO World Heritage Site):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dubrovnik

[Drowsy Emperor]

Wikipedia has next to no credibility for hotly debated political topics where significant interests are in play, sorry. The articles are very biased and make no effort to offer differing viewpoints.

[Gorgon]

Huge PR disaster for the Serbs though. Pictures of mortar shelling hitting civilians did not look good on TV. I didn't mean to suggest the city was destroyed. Maybe a bit of hyperboly on my part. 

[Valorian]

Wikipedia has next to no credibility for hotly debated political topics where significant interests are in play, sorry. The articles are very biased and make no effort to offer differing viewpoints.

 

Wikipedia articles should be approved by the Serbian national assembly to get credibility... naturally.

Not everything is a conspiracy against Serbs, Drowsy.   Please, do not become the next North Korea.

[Malcador]

Well just read the Talk page for an idea. Usually works well.