Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Drowsy Emperor]

Serbian press says RT claims Russia is going to intervene in the next 48 hours. I can't find the original source on RT although I doubt they'd invent it. 

[213374U]

Well, that's just great. Another chain of major foreign policy blunders that ends up playing right into Putin's hands. If Russia does indeed intervene, federalization (one of the proposed solutions by the Donetsk People's Republic) will basically be out of the question, and probably independence too. I wonder if this is actually the outcome Biden was hoping for? Disintegration of Ukraine and annexation of parts of it by Russia so it effectively ceases to exist as a buffer zone?

 

 

*Most likely so you can not read it, again, and insist that it wasn't planned sometime down the line, again.

 

Remember: if it's not on Wikipedia or the BBC, they are "random links on the internet", and they can be safely disregarded.

[Volourn]

"Serbian press says RT claims Russia is going to intervene in the next 48 hours. I can't find the original source on RT although I doubt they'd invent it."
 

\So... Putins and his lakies are caught lying yet again. Not surprising.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Don't know why I bother really, but here is the link on the planning of the 'spontaneous' anti Yanukovich protests, again*. Tyanybok is quite open about trying to foment a "pre revolutionary atmosphere" since Yanukovich's (free and fair, since I'm recycling links) election in 2010. Oh, and he quite freely and without prompting quotes Bandera in that interview as well.

 

*Most likely so you can not read it, again, and insist that it wasn't planned sometime down the line, again.

 

The idea that tens of thousands of people could spontaneously organize the logistics of food,shelter and anti-riot gear in under a week (but lasting for months) can only be believed by a complete idiot. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

 

I can see that consistency is important. 213374u. But I'm afraid I've lost track of your main point.

 

I'm sorry, you shouldn't read my posts under the assumption that all of them are crafted to fit in with my overarching anti-EU, pinko leftard, conspiracy theorist master plan. Only a vast majority.

 

It seems to be a long-standing point of contention between you and me, and it's somewhat tangential to this thread. It goes back to other discussion where you argued that some international justice is better than no international justice, and that an actually impartial international justice system is unrealistic because the enforcer will never be impartial. My position was that "some" international justice is in fact no justice at all if some parties are both apparently immune and running the show while others seem to be consistently targeted, regardless. As a result of the perceived unfairness and the fundamental injustice that this represents, it's not surprising that some feel disenfranchised and rise to challenge the legitimacy of the system as a whole, often violently. Universality and consistency are two of the pillars of justice. But justice matters little when you can get away with whatever, because force, applied or threatened, and not reason, is the ultimate problem solver in human affairs throughout history. "International law" is little more than a way to play the Great Game while paying lip service to Enlightened ideas.

 

But what goes around comes around.

 

 

Hah! Well, fair enough. I think the most one can get out of any reasonable discussion is dig down to the axiomatic foundations. After that point it's 'axioms all the way down'.

 

You've paid me a compliment by remembering my earlier perspective. If I may expand on it without suggesting it's "stronger" than yours, I would observe that I'm a practical decision maker. And to me pursuing a policy of purely abstract justice - assuming it is impossible - is vastly inferior to pursuing a policy of delivering benevolent outcomes to as many as possible. I'd rather feed seven people with seven loaves than divide the seven loaves among seven thousand, and everyone dies of hunger.

[obyknven]

Classics. 1949, US cry: "Who dares to interfere into Ukrainian affairs?", this  caricature still relevant.

 

Girl from Right sector, she from Vinnytsia (West Ukraine), but participate  in Odessa massacre.

 

 

 

Killed young  medic in Kramatorsk tomorrow. Nazianal guards do it.

[Walsingham]

See , now that's more like it. Disjointed statements, copy pasted images. NOW you're looking plausible.

[obyknven]

See , now that's more like it. Disjointed statements, copy pasted images. NOW you're looking plausible.

It's just bit of news (real news from people who live in Ukraine, not media bull****) for better understanding what happened here. In current time Ukrainian Nazis concentrated in Odessa and clashes with local Antifa  expected. Odessa never been "Ukrainian" town, this is multiethnic port-city of Russian Empire, locals are Jews, Greeks, Germans, Gypsy's, Russians and  many others, Ukrainian Nazi movements never been popular here (heritage of WW2, when Nazi perform here ethnic cleansing), majority of these right-wing extremists is not local people.

 

Live TV from Odessa.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/new-odessa

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/new-odessa/theater

 

Personally i wondering how can Western politicans support THIS.

http://youtu.be/NKuDzXAgdf4

Do West start ressurection of Nazism? The Left thinkers predict this yet 40 years ago. Probably, i must train shout "Sieg Hail", in modern brown world it's must be useful skill (if you don't want be killed or tortured by new "democrats"). 

[obyknven]

By last info in Odessa killed not 40, but around 200 people, most of them are shooted or stabbled, many of them are womens, girls and few childrens.

This is google translated explanation how Kievan junta make Odessa massacre.

http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=ru&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://ontimer.livejournal.com/27218.html

 

Original:

http://ontimer.livejournal.com/27218.html

It's how real modern journalists works, no media channels or moneybags are needed.

 

Many people don't like google translate, but on english language you can't find this info. English language suck, sources too censored (for example all my post premoderated, freedom of speech lol), really Russian or Spanish languages are better (many modern thinkers use them).

[Mor]

See , now that's more like it. Disjointed statements, copy pasted images. NOW you're looking plausible.

You made me click the 'view anyway' button, for once it was worth it

[Mor]

Don't know why I bother really, but here is the link on the planning of the 'spontaneous' anti Yanukovich protests, again*. Tyanybok is quite open about trying to foment a "pre revolutionary atmosphere" [..]

 

*Most likely so you can not read it, again, and insist that it wasn't planned sometime down the line, again.

Again with your strawmen arguments.. I don't know to who your initial post about "spontaneous" was directed too, but I didn't asked about it, nor if there was plan, only what exactly are you suggesting that it was..

 

Because like Sarex, who every now and then throw Clinton archives because to him it proves that Euromaiden was some kind of CIA false flag operation, which in his head legitimize Russia actions; or like oby posts about antisemtism, which is a subject he don't seem to give a S*** about except how it reflects on the situation(aka mud throwing). Similarly I have this sense that the only aspect of this "plan" that you care about is in claiming the its exactly the same thing as what is happening in Eastern Ukraine and doing so through thin word associations and ignorance.

 

So again what exactly do you think that they planed? or is proved by this single interview you linked, by member of Svoboda party (un doubtfully picked for that reason). An interview in which he notes current issues, and speaks about the looming presidential election, saying all the usual stuff about going to the voters, increasing awareness to their actions, mobilizing activists etc. Who specifically address the concept of "revolution" as your refer to it as "dumb down".. For them revolution is pretty much their "change" slogan, associated with the recent [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution Orange Revolution]

 

More importantly even if the interview wasn't used out of context, and represents a broader sentiment in his party. The Euromaiden reached across parties and ideologies, with many liberals, students, etc (svoboda being the smallest opposition party to support it). As noted in the interview various opposition parties and activist groups tried to organize protest in the past (which is familiar to me, here we had a new planed yahoo protest every half year, with no one giving a S*** unless its dry day on local news). With the Euromaiden protest lifting off after the government suspended preparations for Joining EU.

 

So again what exactly do you think that they planed, except wining election? and what it has todo with topic?

Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Right, so opposition goes on about revolution, about how some are being too "passive" and we then get a revolution- but he actually meant normal electoral stuff like making phone calls and putting up posters? Hmm. You even establish form in your interpretation, the Orange Revolution may have had some legitimacy in that the election was disputed, but the last one was not and the OSCE even went out of their way to say that rumours of it being fixed were wholly unsubstantiated. The only then current justification was sour grapes from losing in the first place- and that is not usually seen as a good justification.

 

Who cares that the interview is with Tyanybok anyway? He's proud of himself, so he's honest about what he's doing because he thinks it's right and will appeal to people, much as some of the Right Sector people in Odessa were quite open about setting the Union building on fire because they thought it was fine to do so and despite Yatsenyuk trying to blame everyone except his supporters for it. He talks about fomenting a revolution and pre revolutionary atmosphere, about trying for an uprising, others being too "passive" and stuff like that and then non passive revolution is what happens. It's borne out by history that he was not talking revolution in some sort of abstract way.
 

Remember: if it's not on Wikipedia or the BBC, they are "random links on the internet", and they can be safely disregarded.

Or, it seems, it's "only one link", an interview with only the third most important leader. Apparently, only signed affadavits from Yatsenyuk and Klitschko (who I'd actually let off personally, since he's had the good sense to stay out of the clusterasterisk that is the Yatsenyuk/ Turchenov 'government' and was specifically called too passive, a veritable badge of honour considering the current circumstances) will do as evidence.

[Mor]

I don't really care about what your opinion of Tyanybok, if you think that he was honest in this specific interview or your interpretation of the context in which he used the term revolution. Most defiantly I don't care about your suggestions and implications, the question was pretty straight forward, what you think that "they" planed and how it relates to the events at hand?

 

As I noted, he is speaking about pre-election times, about trying to motivate their constituency and yes most likely trying to leverage the success of the recent Orange revolution (a nationwide protests that uncovered vote rigging and led to a political victory in the bailouts) He specifically noted that the version of revolution you try to imply is dumb down concept and speaks about taking part in Kyiv election.

 

Also like him or not (I hope you aren't under the illusion that I support the guy), but what he said or how he said is not out of the ordinary(for people who read opinion columns, not just the PC statements). The fact that its one link is important, because I can find dozens of interviews with Russian officials, that you'd claim that were led or their words were put out of context. So if you want to extrapolate a conclusion based on this interview, based on your opinion about its validity, concerning the whole Eromadine movement and the events that followed, so you can finally find the legitimacy you seek for the armed militias that took over East Ukraine and Russia roll in it exploiting the situation, you'd need just a tiny bit more than that (sarcasm)

 

EDIT: The best I can I give you is that such action and the wake of the Orange revolution was a contributing factor in the unfortunate events following the police dispersal.(one in many thing that is wrong in there and needs to be addressed)

Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[213374U]

English language suck, sources too censored (for example all my post premoderated, freedom of speech lol), really Russian or Spanish languages are better (many modern thinkers use them).

 

You brought it upon yourself, tbh. Don't post live executions stuff and other tripe and you'll be fine. I've butted heads with moderation here more times than I care to remember and it was always for doing stupid **** like circumventing the language filter or creating alts to avoid moderated posting, never for the actual content of my posts. Don't try to be clever.

 

Also, I imagine there's a wealth of news items and different perspectives in Russian language sources, but as far as Spanish language sources go... heh.

[BruceVC]

 

English language suck, sources too censored (for example all my post premoderated, freedom of speech lol), really Russian or Spanish languages are better (many modern thinkers use them).

 

You brought it upon yourself, tbh. Don't post live executions stuff and other tripe and you'll be fine. I've butted heads with moderation here more times than I care to remember and it was always for doing stupid **** like circumventing the language filter or creating alts to avoid moderated posting, never for the actual content of my posts. Don't try to be clever.

 

Also, I imagine there's a wealth of news items and different perspectives in Russian language sources, but as far as Spanish language sources go... heh.

 

 

I have never had a warning from a Mod on these forums, I really don't think the forum policies are in any way restrictive or unreasonable if you just understand the expectation around acceptable posting etiquette

[obyknven]

 

Also, I imagine there's a wealth of news items and different perspectives in Russian language sources, but as far as Spanish language sources go... heh.

 

I talk about Latin America - land of progressive thinkers and great writers. Many news and info from here you even can't find in Internet, for West these themes are taboo (Death  squads, Terror against left movements,  Nazi sponsored by CIA etc). We have great expectations about this region,  they have good chance to progress, while US/NATO too busy by us and Middle East.

As i say before ther is too much taboo (it's common trait for Western internet, for example 4chan ban me too). For me ( as Russian ) such limitations are unacceptable, we accustomed to much more freedom.

[obyknven]

Croatian mercs participate in punishment of East Ukrainians.

http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/Svet/Da-li-se-Hrvati-bore-protiv-Rusa.sr.html

Looks like CIA throws all own resources against Ukraine.

[Valorian]

 

 Serbian press has just announced that intercepted radio transmission of Ukrainian forces

 

 

 

The best military analyst in Serbia claims 

 

 

Serbian press says RT claims Russia 

 

 

It needs to be said that Serbian media are hardly a reliable source of informations. The brainwashing propaganda is not in full force like in the 90's, but it's still going strong and its effects are irreparable, sadly. NATO made a huge favor to the Serbian people when they demolished one of the centers responsible for spreading propaganda and inducing mass hysteria.

[Sarex]

It needs to be said that Serbian media are hardly a reliable source of informations. The brainwashing propaganda is not in full force like in the 90's, but it's still going strong and its effects are irreparable, sadly. NATO made a huge favor to the Serbian people when they demolished one of the centers responsible for spreading propaganda and inducing mass hysteria.

 

Oh, wow, you did not just say that. That is propaganda if ever I hear it. So according to you it should have broadcasted how NATO was our savior and how we should welcome the bombs of salvation, that ended up hitting more civilian targets then military.

[Valorian]

Serbian media existed prior and exist after the NATO bombing, yes? Actually, according to me, Serbian media spreading lies about NATO had little to no impact on the "enemy", but like all the propaganda that Serbian people have absorbed throughout the last decades, it did have a negative impact on them. It caused paranoia, the whole world is against us syndrome, delusions of grandeur propelled by Serbian historical myths in stark collision with reality and ridiculous conspiracy theories. 

 

Of course, casualties are always unfortunate. It was also unfortunate when Serbians decided to massacre more than 8000 imprisoned men and boys in two days in Srebrenica, BiH. It was a tragedy and a genocide. It was also a tragedy when Serbian forces, controlling the JNA, devastated ex-Yu countries, including Kosovo, with ethnic cleansing, destruction and barbaric war crimes.

 

Compared to that, what NATO did is nothing. You should be thankful.

[Zoraptor]

I don't really care about what your opinion of Tyanybok, if you think that he was honest in this specific interview or your interpretation of the context in which he used the term revolution. Most defiantly I don't care about your suggestions and implications, the question was pretty straight forward, what you think that "they" planed and how it relates to the events at hand?

 

What I think is utterly irrelevant and completely meaningless (though I'll give it below since you seem so interested)- it's pretty obvious to anyone what Tyanybok meant and he's far more important than I am, because whatever I say will be speculation whereas what he says speaks directly as an actual leader. It's like disputing something about black holes, having an interview with Hawking given as a reply then insisting you want to know what I think about black holes, not Hawking, and it's only one interview so Hawking was misquoted or the interviewer had an agenda. You can insist that when Hawking says singularity he means something different and when Tyanybok says uprising or revolution he means something different- even despite actually getting an uprising and revolution- but in neither case does the evidence support you.

 

Now since you're so interested I have basically no doubt that they decided they were going to try and flip Yanukovich if they got the opportunity, from the start, it's a tactic they've used previously and successfully and Tyanybok outright states that they've been looking for an issue to trigger something, and I have no doubt that they were actively encouraged to do so by the EU and US as that is a tactic they've used successfully in their various colour revolutions, hence the EU's intransigence about agreements when the Russians were willing to compromise. And power blocs are always looking for opportunities to flip countries, anyone who thinks theirs is lily white in that regard is deceiving themselves.

 

But I doubt they expected or planned for what they've now got. They give the distinct impression of being a bunch of headless chickens stuck in the headlights to mix a metaphor- now- that they distinctly did not when the revolution was in progress. They, and the EU/US thought they saw a golden opportunity to permanently alter the facts on the ground in their favour, gift themselves the next set of elections by crippling the PoR and Communists, and get Ukraine's western track so far in advance that it wouldn't matter what the eastern parts wanted as by the time they had a say it'd be irreversible. They critically miscalculated just how much importance Russia puts on Ukraine, how reliable the eastern parts of the state apparatus would be having spent so much of their energy slagging them off and in some cases sacking them and, well, thought that their opponents would just suck it up and didn't really believe strongly enough to really react. Now, they don't have a clue what to do, they've broken their country, probably permanently.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Serbian media existed prior and exist after the NATO bombing, yes? Actually, according to me, Serbian media spreading lies about NATO had little to no impact on the "enemy", but like all the propaganda that Serbian people have absorbed throughout the last decades, it did have a negative impact on them. It caused paranoia, the whole world is against us syndrome, delusions of grandeur propelled by Serbian historical myths in stark collision with reality and ridiculous conspiracy theories. 

 

Of course, casualties are always unfortunate. It was also unfortunate when Serbians decided to massacre more than 8000 imprisoned men and boys in two days in Srebrenica, BiH. It was a tragedy and a genocide. It was also a tragedy when Serbian forces, controlling the JNA, devastated ex-Yu countries, including Kosovo, with ethnic cleansing, destruction and barbaric war crimes.

 

Compared to that, what NATO did is nothing. You should be thankful.

 

 

Who the **** are you and how are you an authority on Serbian media or the Balkan wars?

[Sarex]

Who the **** are you and how are you an authority on Serbian media or the Balkan wars?

 

He's a Croat or a Muslim, this is their text book propaganda. See how there at the end he insinuated that we got what we deserved when NATO bombed us.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I knew it when he said JNA instead of the English equivalent, I'm just waiting for him to own up as to which brand of troll he is.

[Sarex]

I knew it when he said JNA instead of the English equivalent, I'm just waiting for him to own up as to which brand of troll he is.

 

That too, nice catch.