HP Lovecraft was an arse - EVERYONE ROLL FOR SAN LOSS!

[Walsingham]

I'm having a long standing argument with our tabletop GM regarding the way in which sanity loss is handled in CoC.

 

Essentially I take the view that although the eldritch horrors are awful and all that, essentially human beings are designed with run-flat minds. We don't just go gibbering fruitloop provided we are healthy and supported and gleefully reinterpret what we are seeing.

 

Yes, if you accept the awful horror of an uncaring universe packed with powerful denizens then you're going to go nuts. But I'd argue that you can be presented with the exact same realisation in the aftermath of a genocidal war, or an episode of Britain's Got Talent.

 

So, what do you chaps think? Downhill all the way, or is madness a bit more cross-country?

[Rosbjerg]

I always assumed some magic was involved, working to slowly (or rather quicly often in CoT games) eroding the mind. Seeing as people tend to get magical insights and visions if they read books, see things they aren't supposed to in that universe..

[Orogun01]

Madness is a blanket term for a series of defense mechanism the mind establish in order to shield you and deal with some situation. A complete loss of sanity or going into shock is possible, just as it is possible to come out of it.

This thread has made me go into shock, I will post when I come out of it.

[Walsingham]

Indeed.

 

My best friend, and many of my very close friends have struggled with depression. Attempting to understand them, in order to help them, and not look down on them I developed the opinion that depression is actually chronic sanity.

 

To look at a decaying, angry ape, in a lonely universe, on a hostile planet... that is sane confrontation of facts on a normal day.

 

But we are given the mad miracle of imagination, and choice. We can choose to see not what we are, but what we might be.

 

I do not mind that my life is a frantic noise of miniscule weight any more than I mind that my ancestors lived in caves and ate fleas. Alexander the Great's ancestors ate fleas. Einstein's ancestors burned bison dung. We are, as a species, utterly magnificent; not in our actuality but in our potential.

[ManifestedISO]

Oh, hmm ... chronic sanity. Clever term, I think. Or additionally the inability to "wake up" from chronic sanity, is depression. Video games, movies, and books seem to be the best way for me to shore up imagination, and thus alleviate lingering sanity. For a few moments, at least, I am the one leveling up and progressing in a positive direction. From the other thread, I should be thankful it's not excessive eating that pretends to do the same. 

[Orogun01]

Indeed.

 

My best friend, and many of my very close friends have struggled with depression. Attempting to understand them, in order to help them, and not look down on them I developed the opinion that depression is actually chronic sanity.

 

To look at a decaying, angry ape, in a lonely universe, on a hostile planet... that is sane confrontation of facts on a normal day.

 

But we are given the mad miracle of imagination, and choice. We can choose to see not what we are, but what we might be.

 

I do not mind that my life is a frantic noise of miniscule weight any more than I mind that my ancestors lived in caves and ate fleas. Alexander the Great's ancestors ate fleas. Einstein's ancestors burned bison dung. We are, as a species, utterly magnificent; not in our actuality but in our potential.

The only thing I've ever agreed with Ayn Rand is that love is the result of omission (although I also believe it to be caused by acceptance) that we love because we are oblivious or immune to seeing the flaws in something. The opposite must also be true and despair, cynicism and depression are the result of omission of virtues.

To be honest I think depression and anxiety are caused by expectations, in the case of depression we have unfulfilled and possibly unrealistic expectations. Unless we are talking about chronic medical depression in  which case tell your friend to get his/her ass to a doctor.

 

Also, what does it say about you that your best friend is depressed? Be more amusing ya selfish mook!

[Bryy]

Madness is a blanket term for a series of defense mechanism the mind establish in order to shield you and deal with some situation. A complete loss of sanity or going into shock is possible, just as it is possible to come out of it.

That being said, the whole 'madness from incomprehensible things' angle is one of the things people usually cling to because they are afraid of leaving traditional Lovecraft jank behind.

 

I read an unproduced screenplay that had the main character go insane not because Cthulhu was so... weird... but because it opened the floodgates to anything being real.

 

I really abhor all of the crud authors write just because they are afraid of fanboys.

[Nonek]

I always saw the Cthuloid madness mechanic as somewhat similar to Shellshock, a massively sustained traumatic event has triggered a regression from societal norms. My Grandfather spoke a few times (when inebriated usually) about chaps he'd seen suffering from said affliction, and how you could never tell who would crack and who hold steady. Then again he positively enjoyed most of the Great War it seems, and the rest he wouldn't talk about, so the old chap was obviously of a rather iron constitution.

 

I quite like the incomprehensible angle, but preferred when it was taken a step further, to the point where the mind could only concieve of various Impossible Angles stretcing to infinite depths and then would quite calmly refuse to see any more. Just as the constant blast of whizz bangs and shells would assault a Tommy's senses, so the essential truth of the Outer Gods would bombard a chap with too much sensation.

[Walsingham]

Just as the constant blast of whizz bangs and shells would assault a Tommy's senses, so the essential truth of the Outer Gods would bombard a chap with too much sensation.

 

Highly interesting. So it's a breakdown of the perceptual filter?

 

By that rationale I wonder if you could dose yourself with low levels of ketamine to counteract it? And does this explain the utility of ketamine in fighting depression?

[Whitefox789]

The only thing I've ever agreed with Ayn Rand is that love is the result of omission (although I also believe it to be caused by acceptance) that we love because we are oblivious or immune to seeing the flaws in something. The opposite must also be true and despair, cynicism and depression are the result of omission of virtues.

To be honest I think depression and anxiety are caused by expectations, in the case of depression we have unfulfilled and possibly unrealistic expectations. Unless we are talking about chronic medical depression in  which case tell your friend to get his/her ass to a doctor.

 

Also, what does it say about you that your best friend is depressed? Be more amusing ya selfish mook!

You've forgotten to mention societies influence on what love is suppose to be. How do you really know if what you, yourself are feeling is love and what is simply nothing more but influence by society to tell you how you should feel for other people? That omission is the resulting factor of society itself telling you, you have to be with someone to feel whole.

 

I definitely agree with you on insanity itself being the defense mechanism of the mind. From what little I've read of Lovecraft I don't believe its the incredible beings that causes the viewpoint of the character to go mad its more or less the realization that the world/universe is more than what it seems to be and since you are unable to understand it you break down with that knowledge forever imprinted on your brain until you can't take it anymore.

 

I myself prefer to have a balance between sanity and insanity because having one over the other can be too impactful on your psyche when one takes over the other.

 

Seretone and Dopamine can only do so much to influence your mood out of your depression, generally the body gets use to those extra chemicals where it starts treating it as normal.

[Nonek]

Genius and depression do often seem to go hand in hand, as I remember Mr Newton retired to his chambers for a year of absolute isolation while formulating one of his many revelatory works, and that gentleman could be said to grasp more of reality than most of the rest of humanity.

 

Edit: I do agree that the descent to madness is a little too swift in CoC, personally I always thought that character traits should be subverted and made excessively ritualistic until they become a crutch, that of course may be torn away.

 

2nd Edit: Of course it might be that Azathothian nightmares do actually produce some form of radiation that is harmful to the chemical composition of our brains, or perhaps the synaptic pathways, and the madness that comes from encountering them is a purely physical reaction. That would work I suppose, though I don't think certain creatures of the mythology would qualify for this effect.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Nonek

[Whitefox789]

Genius and depression do often seem to go hand in hand, as I remember Mr Newton retired to his chambers for a year of absolute isolation while formulating one of his many revelatory works, and that gentleman could be said to grasp more of reality than most of the rest of humanity.

 

2nd Edit: Of course it might be that Azathothian nightmares do actually produce some form of radiation that is harmful to the chemical composition of our brains, or perhaps the synaptic pathways, and the madness that comes from encountering them is a purely physical reaction. That would work I suppose, though I don't think certain creatures of the mythology would qualify for this effect.

They did say for me that being crazy is one of the pre-requisites of being an engineer. :D

 

Regarding your second edit wouldn't that just pretty much qualify under the aspects of schizophrenia?

[Nonek]

I don't know and neither do I.

 

Sorry.

[Orogun01]

Regarding your second edit wouldn't that just pretty much qualify under the aspects of schizophrenia?

Technically yes, since schizophrenia is besides being a real disease also a blanket term for a series of unrelated mental symptoms manifesting on the same patient. EG: OCD because a pink elephant looks at you judgingly.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Regarding your second edit wouldn't that just pretty much qualify under the aspects of schizophrenia?

Technically yes, since schizophrenia is besides being a real disease also a blanket term for a series of unrelated mental symptoms manifesting on the same patient. EG: OCD because a pink elephant looks at you judgingly.

 

 

Wat.

[Valsuelm]

I agree that the CoC insanity mechanic is pretty retarded. Not only was it unrealistic but it had the potential to take the ability of a person to role play their character out of their hands, dictating to them how they reacted in a permanent manner (which is bad game design for an RPG). I always preferred Beyond The Supernatural 1st edition to CoC (I've not played 2nd edition and it's my understanding that it's somewhat in limbo). Granted some house rules were used, and it always depends on who you play with, but to this day BTS was the most fun PnP RPG I ever played due to the campaign subject matter and setting.

 

On the subject of insanity. There is one sure path to insanity, it's called denial. And that's how the vast majority of people get there.

 

On the subject of love. No, love is not the result of omission. Rand didn't know what she was talking about with that either. Not real love anyways. Real love is unconditional and it is not blind. One can see the faults, imperfections, etc and still love. Most people in modern society really suck at character judgement and suffer from varying degrees of denial. These folks rarely truly love someone.

On the subject of depression. This is a much more complicated subject as there are many ways and reasons for which one can become sad to varying degrees, which really are dependent on the person and their circumstances.

[ravenshrike]

 

Madness is a blanket term for a series of defense mechanism the mind establish in order to shield you and deal with some situation. A complete loss of sanity or going into shock is possible, just as it is possible to come out of it.

That being said, the whole 'madness from incomprehensible things' angle is one of the things people usually cling to because they are afraid of leaving traditional Lovecraft jank behind.

 

I read an unproduced screenplay that had the main character go insane not because Cthulhu was so... weird... but because it opened the floodgates to anything being real.

 

I really abhor all of the crud authors write just because they are afraid of fanboys.

 

I like Ringo and Taylor's Looking Glass book series take on the topic of Cthuloid entities. Namely that they are conceptually something that would drive you insane. E.g., a species that finds quantum mechanics logical would drive a human insane if connected to their thought process. Or a species that did not have a concept of linear time. 

[Walsingham]

Many very interesting perspectives expressed.

 

Thinking about it in light of all your comments I wonder if you'd agre with these points: 

 

- You can't just have a linear 'loony tunes' index. As if sanity was oil in an engine. Sanity IS the engine.

- A player should be able to try to work around, or against, or with their eroding insanity

- Both points above indicate the need for more detail in the type of damage the player has received.

[Nonek]

Yes I would say that crutches may be made, horrors might be locked away and truth denied quite easily. Or that one might gain a deeper understanding through ones trials and tribulations. Of course you can't have an entire party of madmen, but maybe you can have them finding strength through unity and brotherhood, and keeping the darkness at bay through some manner of ritualistic soul binding or some such. Perhaps even capturing an otherworldly horror and locking it away can reinvigorate the frayed nerve, as one realises that there are laws governing these things and that they can be manipulated and contained. Duty can be quite a nice crutch to lean upon, especially if one sees that duty as righteous.

[Orogun01]

Many very interesting perspectives expressed.

 

Thinking about it in light of all your comments I wonder if you'd agre with these points: 

 

- You can't just have a linear 'loony tunes' index. As if sanity was oil in an engine. Sanity IS the engine.

- A player should be able to try to work around, or against, or with their eroding insanity

- Both points above indicate the need for more detail in the type of damage the player has received.

Wals how would you feel about the concept of insanity that it's unknown to the player? In RL a lot of mentally unstable people have no idea or a diminished awareness of their condition. It simply makes no sense to me that the player should have perfect information about their condition, for roleplaying purposes it would be interesting to see them try to figure out what's wrong with their character and try different strategies. 

On a related note, decay mechanics are absurd, slowly prevent any chance of success and turn out to be counter-intuitive since you can only play the game saddled with a dynamic time limit.

[Walsingham]

 

Many very interesting perspectives expressed.

 

Thinking about it in light of all your comments I wonder if you'd agre with these points: 

 

- You can't just have a linear 'loony tunes' index. As if sanity was oil in an engine. Sanity IS the engine.

- A player should be able to try to work around, or against, or with their eroding insanity

- Both points above indicate the need for more detail in the type of damage the player has received.

Wals how would you feel about the concept of insanity that it's unknown to the player? In RL a lot of mentally unstable people have no idea or a diminished awareness of their condition. It simply makes no sense to me that the player should have perfect information about their condition, for roleplaying purposes it would be interesting to see them try to figure out what's wrong with their character and try different strategies. 

On a related note, decay mechanics are absurd, slowly prevent any chance of success and turn out to be counter-intuitive since you can only play the game saddled with a dynamic time limit.

 

 

I think that's a splendid idea.

 

If the madness is triggered by a perceptual failure then it should manifest there first.

 

Of course practically speaking that's putting a lot of weight on the GM. How does the GM balance the player's perceptions against those of the other players? But I guess I'd throw it in when rolls are being made.

[Orogun01]

I thought about that as well and I agree it does put a burden on the GM. The best answer I could come up with was custom descriptions to each player; kind of like the tale of the blind men and the elephant. They get a full picture with imperfect information based on their collective delusion. Schizophrenics might get false information(monster in room), delusions (you killed the monster), or paranoia (you don't know if the monsters are real). While OCD might get prioritized information such as the organization of the room, the smell, how dirty it is, and then see the monster in the room.
 

I remember that the World of Darkness implemented something similar with different clans having to pass checks on their conditions in order to have successful rolls.

[nikolokolus]

If you don't want the player to know for sure that their character has gone mad I can think of a few ways to tweak reality for them. Pull them aside in a private conference away from the other players occassionally and tell them things like, "you've been getting the feeling that your companions are whispering about you, they seem to be very secretive and fthey requently smile and nod at you when you are talking with them, but out of the corner of your eye, you are pretty sure that you've caught a few sneers or seen conspiratorial looks exchanged when they thought you weren't looking."

 

What else? You could have "gaps" show up in their recollection of recent events: They awake covered in blood that isn't their own, some of their valuables have gone missing with no explanation, etc.

 

I've never played CoC, but I did nick the sanity mechanic from Crypts & Things for use in an Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea game, and then kept the players' sanity level secret from them. However, it didn't come up as an issue, since nobody ever went bat-poop crazy.

[Walsingham]

Unfortunately our GM is explicitly intended for us to go doolally tap as soon as possible.

 

He is a _tremendous_ GM, and puts huge effort and skill into the games. But I think he's overestimated how much enjoyment we will get from going bongo Stanley.

 

Valsuelm made a critical point earlier: the player has to still be involved.

 

If the player is left merely conveying insanity then I think they've left roleplaying behind and are just acting. Struggle, change, growth, hope, fear are all interlinked.

 

If it's Coco-puffs in your eyelids 24/7 then I think it undermines that.

[Orogun01]

I learned a lot Brit slang from that post.

I rather that insanity is implemented through a curve having it's ups and downs rather than an incline (or decline) and deterioration only affects the range, meaning that your top level crazy is now even crazier. Also are you guys playing online or doing sessions or what?