What race will you play as?

[Fluff]

Yeah, while I'm entirely on your side I just wanted to point out people have a fairly strong reason for not being (whether their reason should be considered "right" or not is a totally different subject though).

 

I'd never really thought of your second comment though, and that is sort of strange. Actually, now that I think of it I'm hard pressed to think of many.. if any fantasy settings for other races where they shared any form of cultural alteration to their bodies for beauty. Shaving, specific hairstyles, specific clothing styles, piercings, tattoos, unnaturally colored hair, etc.

 

While in the real world most are very heavily influenced by physical appearance in these settings everyone seems to be very ambiguously natural and uncaring of such things. The races and sometimes everyone combined are usually very uniform.

[Volourn]

In DnD/fantasy the vast majority of dwarven females have no beards.  It's a myth that they do. This misconception is beyond silly. I also think it came to be because somewhere it was written that when 'dwarven females go out into human lands for adventuring or whatnot they MAY (not always) grow a beard to disguise themselves as males', Just look at the Complete Book of Dwarves. The female dwarves in that book are beardless. As they should be.

 

As for the poll, dwarf of course. Most of these other races are wannabes.

[Barothmuk]

Age of Wonders 3 has bearded females however their beards aren't nearly as impressive as the males'.

 

[Jarrakul]

Oldschool D&D has a lot of talk of bearded female dwarves. Also very few visual depictions of them. As media have become more visual, female dwarves have tended to lose their beards, presumably because bearded women aren't conventionally sexy. Again, I don't really care one way or the other, but it does bother me that people tend to go "ew, gross, that shouldn't be in the game." Sometimes biology is gross. Somethings other species aren't conventionally attractive. I fail to see the problem.

 

But, again, this isn't actually a big deal. It looks like Eternity's dwarf women probably don't have beards, and I have no problem with that.

[Volourn]

'Oldschool D&D has a lot of talk of bearded female dwarves.'

 

Define 'a lot'. I've been around D&D for nearly 30 years and 'bearded female dwarves' were FAR from the norm. I love the fact you claim bearded  women are 'convetionally sexy'. L0L  Like it's a matter of taste:P.  Bearded women aren't sexy. period.

[Jarrakul]

'Oldschool D&D has a lot of talk of bearded female dwarves.'

 

Define 'a lot'. I've been around D&D for nearly 30 years and 'bearded female dwarves' were FAR from the norm. I love the fact you claim bearded  women are 'convetionally sexy'. L0L  Like it's a matter of taste:P.  Bearded women aren't sexy. period.

 

Sadly, I am not currently in my home and therefore do not have any of my D&D books around to quote from. Honestly, my use of "a lot" was deliberately vague. Normally I'd just wait to reply to you until I had sources, but the second bit needs to be addressed.

 

I assume you mean that I'm saying they aren't conventionally sexy, because that's what I said. Typos happen, that's cool, but I just want to be clear that that's how I read your post. Having said that, it is absolutely a matter of taste. Sexiness in general is a matter of taste. I like masculine women and feminine men. Not everyone does, but I do. That doesn't tend to extend as far as beards, but you know what? A beard on a woman wouldn't be a deal breaker for me (except as far as a beard on a man would be a deal breaker; some beards are just icky). So, I guess there's your counter-example right there. Where do you get off telling other people what they're attracted to?

[Jarrakul]

Since I don't have my books at the moment, I just did some quick Google research. Tolkien dwarf women almost certainly had beards, as inferred from a stated similarity in appearance to the men and the fact that it's quite clear that beards are highly characteristic of dwarves (to the point that it would be impossible to mistake someone for a male dwarf without a beard). D&D, naturally, varies according to campaign settings, but both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have bearded dwarf women. Interestingly enough, they apparently often shave in both settings, so I guess I have to eat my words regarding that never showing up.

 

EDIT: Edited for clarity.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jarrakul

[Lephys]

Welp... thanks to Volourn, the sheer existence of subjectivity has been called into question. I'm honestly not sure what to say.

 

"Dude, flies eat poop, therefore poop is delicious! It's not like it can JUST be delicious to flies but be disgusting to other creatures/people. u_u"

[Volourn]

But,t hat's not subjective. Stating flies like eating poop is not the same as everyone likes eating poop.

 

I have never met a man ( or lesbian for that matter) who are attracted to women with beards more than they are to women without beards.

 

 

. "Tolkien dwarf women almost certainly had beards, as inferred from a stated similarity in appearance to the men"

 

Human women are similar to human men but they tend not to grow beards (though physically they cand epending on testosterone levels).  By your 'proof', I could say dwarven women and dwarven men both have the same body parts between their legs because it is 'inferred' they are similiar. L0L But, we both know that isn't the case, right?

 

\That being said, I'm sure dwarven women are more likely to have beards than, say, human women, since it is obvious that dwarves as a species have more testosterone. And, elves have far less hence the lack of even elven males having beards.

 Who knows what Tolkien thinks about dwarven women since I don't recall one ever playing a major (or even minor) role in any of his books (likely because he was sexist). But, yeah, it is posisble, Tolkien women have beards  but that don't impress me much.

 

DnD dwarven women, on the other hand, while able to grow beards, normally don't have 'em - except  like I said above when travelling around humans for disguise. Also, look at the Complete Book of Dwarves.  The females in that book from my memory are all clean shaven.

 

 

Dwarven women beards. Love the internet.

[ShadySands]

All except dwarf and orlan 

[Lephys]

But,t hat's not subjective. Stating flies like eating poop is not the same as everyone likes eating poop.

 

I have never met a man ( or lesbian for that matter) who are attracted to women with beards more than they are to women without beards.

And stating "some people like beards" is not the same thing as saying "everyone likes beards." Besides, we're talking about fictional "people" here. Dwarves, as a non-human race, do not exist. Thus, Dwarves might find bearded women attractive. Thus, the simple fact that you don't, or even the possibility that ALL humans don't, doesn't mean they can't have beards because they've gotta look like what real-life human players would want to bang.

 

That's kind of the whole point. If you make lizard people, they probably aren't attractive. Should we give them smooth skin that's peach-colored, instead of scales, so that they'll be attractive? Nope.

 

 

Also, I've never met a murderer, so I'll just assume no one wants to murder anyone. Thanks for the lesson in logic! 8D!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Lephys

[Volourn]

"Thus, Dwarves might find bearded women attractive."

 

Dwarves don't play these games so their opinions don't matter since they aren't a part of the potential customer base. L0L

 

 

"That's kind of the whole point. If you make lizard people, they probably aren't attractive. Should we give them smooth skin that's peach-colored, instead of scales, so that they'll be attractive? Nope."

 

EPIC FAIL with your straw man. Comparing LIZARD PEOPLE with dwarves is silly since dwarves are humanoids with plenty similarities to humans - espicially since dwarves and humans can breed in  more than a few fantasy worlds (including DnD lore). So, nice try. but, trying tio make LIZARD PEOPLE = DWARVES is silly talk.

 

Also, again, I don't care if DWARVES (who aren't really) find dwarven females with beards 'sexy' because dwarves don't exist.

 

My entire original point is that in DnD, dwarven females tend not to have beards. This is fact. In most other fantasy dealing with 'Tolkienized' dwarves, dwarven females really aren't shown a lot if at all really so this misnomer that all or the majority of dwarven females have beards just like their male counterparts is not based on anything in the literature.

 

Nor, is it 'old skool' thinking as I am current playing the 'old skool' NON DND M&M7, and nope no dwarven females with beards. Go figure.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Volourn

[Messier-31]

Also, I've never met a murderer, so I'll just assume no one wants to murder anyone. Thanks for the lesson in logic! 8D!

 

Ah, but maybe you have but dinnae know anythin' about it. Murderes don't tend to introduce themselves like "Top of the mornin' to you, I kill people."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLuLkLw20Y

[Fluff]

"Thus, Dwarves might find bearded women attractive."

 

Dwarves don't play these games so their opinions don't matter since they aren't a part of the potential customer base. L0L

 

 

"That's kind of the whole point. If you make lizard people, they probably aren't attractive. Should we give them smooth skin that's peach-colored, instead of scales, so that they'll be attractive? Nope."

 

EPIC FAIL with your straw man. Comparing LIZARD PEOPLE with dwarves is silly since dwarves are humanoids with plenty similarities to humans - espicially since dwarves and humans can breed in  more than a few fantasy worlds (including DnD lore). So, nice try. but, trying tio make LIZARD PEOPLE = DWARVES is silly talk.

 

Also, again, I don't care if DWARVES (who aren't really) find dwarven females with beards 'sexy' because dwarves don't exist.

 

My entire original point is that in DnD, dwarven females tend not to have beards. This is fact. In most other fantasy dealing with 'Tolkienized' dwarves, dwarven females really aren't shown a lot if at all really so this misnomer that all or the majority of dwarven females have beards just like their male counterparts is not based on anything in the literature.

 

Nor, is it 'old skool' thinking as I am current playing the 'old skool' NON DND M&M7, and nope no dwarven females with beards. Go figure.

 

I think you're missing the point. You are using your subjective opinion about something to try to objectively state something as if any and everyone does/should feel your way about it..which is not how things work.

Of course Dwarves don't play these games, nobody said anything about their opinions in the real world, because as you said they don't exist. The point trying to be made is, nobody asked if you as a human finds it attractive because nobody cares. If we want a diverse, rich, and believable lore behind these races it should include what THEY would genuinely find attractive, not what you would. The same way other cultures in the real world don't give a **** about if you like their culture, because it's theirs..not yours.

 

Also, I don't think you quite understand what the term humanoid means, not that it matters anyway because it's still a valid point they brought up..but.

A humanoid is simply something that resembles a human in one way, shape, or form including but not limited to bipedalism. Which includes anything anthropomorphic.

..kind of why they are referred to as lizard people/men/etc and not "lizard things"

[Lephys]

Dwarves don't play these games so their opinions don't matter since they aren't a part of the potential customer base. L0L

Villains don't play the game either, so we shouldn't care about their desires and motivations to do horrible things for the sake of good lore. OH WAIT. Yes, there's actually more to a game than sheerly appealing to the human players with every single aspect of the entire game.

 

"That's kind of the whole point. If you make lizard people, they probably aren't attractive. Should we give them smooth skin that's peach-colored, instead of scales, so that they'll be attractive? Nope."

 

EPIC FAIL with your straw man. Comparing LIZARD PEOPLE with dwarves is silly since dwarves are humanoids with plenty similarities to humans - espicially since dwarves and humans can breed in  more than a few fantasy worlds (including DnD lore). So, nice try. but, trying tio make LIZARD PEOPLE = DWARVES is silly talk.

Sorry man, but the definition of "straw man argument" is not "an argument that I both do not comprehend and also just plain don't like." So, negatory, Ghost Rider.

 

See, the point was, Lizard people (thanks for emphasizing that, Fluff, ^_^) are attracted to other Lizard people, and thus they look like that. There's nothing to stop female lizard people from being appealing to human players. If the player's opinion is all that matters, then what reason is there for lizard people to not be attractive to you?

 

See, you're deciding whether or not female Dwarves should be attractive to the player (and not just male Dwarves, in the lore of the game). Lizard people are no different. They COULD be super-sexy, slightly lizard-like people. Why? Because the designers are the ones making the decision of what their appearance will be in the first place. And you're saying that the only thing that need be considered at all is what the player wants to look at. Thus, all humanoid anythings should be attractive. Why aren't orcs attractive? Better yet, why aren't MALE dwarves more attractive to all females humans? Women play games, too. They're players. So, all lizardfolk would be ultra sexy, by "conventional" human standards, if we just followed your unchecked line of reasoning.

 

That's what I'm getting at. You either need to produce a check for that, or realize that you can't and it doesn't work. I don't know which is true, but it's not neither. And "Nah dude, lizard people are inherently unattractive, so I don't care about them" is not a legitimate thing, because... no they aren't. They are whatever they're designed to be.

 

My entire original point is that in DnD, dwarven females tend not to have beards. This is fact. In most other fantasy dealing with 'Tolkienized' dwarves, dwarven females really aren't shown a lot if at all really so this misnomer that all or the majority of dwarven females have beards just like their male counterparts is not based on anything in the literature.

 

Nor, is it 'old skool' thinking as I am current playing the 'old skool' NON DND M&M7, and nope no dwarven females with beards. Go figure.

It's too bad I'm not arguing with your original point at all. I'll not debate the statistical occurrence of female Dwarven beard precedent. You're absolutely right for all I know, which is why I'm not even arguing that. I'm only arguing with your one-dimensional line of reasoning that doesn't make any sense. Namely, "None of this is subjective, which is why my subjective opinion is truth here."

 

It's either your subjective opinion (in which case you're wrong about it not being subjective), or it's an objective reason (in which case it should be able to answer a question like "Why don't female lizard people need to be pretty, but female Dwarves do?")

[Volourn]

Where did I say hat female dwarves HAVE to be pretty? Why make stuff up? LMAO You guys are kewl. Bottom line is women with beards aren't sexy. Period.

[Greydragon]

Just to add fuel to the fire on dwarven women = beards debate.

The Discworld series features a dwarven race which is almost completely uniform i.e. "All dwarfs have beards and wear upto twelve layers of clothing. Gender is more or less optional." (From 'GUARDS, GUARDS!')

They only use 'he' even when the dwarf in question is clearly female.

However as the series progresses and the dwarf race is enmeshed in cultural changes brought on by the printing press and so forth they start to have vocally female dwarfs who shave and wear revealing clothes and makeup. Even their newly elected, so-called 'king' (from 'The Fifth Elephant').

 

I personally can't get enough of Terry Pratchett's weirdly funny books of fantasy/comedy/social commentary. He ends up on both sides of this debate at the same time.

 

Now that is out of the way ... I suppose I'll try Amaua first to get a taste of the cultural differences/responses to race/new fantasy race. From there Godlike, human, orlan, elf and finally dwarf. (I almost never play dwarf, simply because I felt hemmed in by stereotypes in D&D and Middle Earth.)

[Lephys]

Where did I say hat female dwarves HAVE to be pretty? Why make stuff up? LMAO You guys are kewl. Bottom line is women with beards aren't sexy. Period.

Where did I say you said they HAD to be pretty? You specifically said they shouldn't have beards. Then, when we questioned that, you said it isn't sexy. In direct response. Then you made a huge deal about emphasizing just how sexy it isn't, even after we pointed out that other female humanoids in fantasy games aren't sexy, and it makes perfect sense that they aren't.

 

Yeah... so crazy of me to somehow figure that you're suggesting female dwarves should be sexy. How could I possibly have gotten that idea?

 

And, for future reference, if someone's clearly misunderstood your point, and is arguing against what they think it is, and you know this... waiting until the 7th-or-so response to say "lolz! You're not even arguing against my point!" doesn't make them look any crazier than it makes you look. Because, who the hell does that? "I could've corrected you 7 posts ago... BUT I DIDN'T, LOLZ!"

[Volourn]

"And, for future reference, if someone's clearly misunderstood your point, and is arguing against what they think it is, and you know this... waiting until the 7th-or-so response to say "lolz! You're not even arguing against my point!" doesn't make them look any crazier than it makes you look. Because, who the hell does that? "I could've corrected you 7 posts ago... BUT I DIDN'T, LOLZ!"

 

I'm not your babysitter or your instructor.

 

 

"Just to add fuel to the fire on dwarven women = beards debate.

The Discworld series features a dwarven race which is almost completely uniform i.e. "All dwarfs have beards and wear upto twelve layers of clothing. Gender is more or less optional." (From 'GUARDS, GUARDS!')

They only use 'he' even when the dwarf in question is clearly female.

However as the series progresses and the dwarf race is enmeshed in cultural changes brought on by the printing press and so forth they start to have vocally female dwarfs who shave and wear revealing clothes and makeup. Even their newly elected, so-called 'king' (from 'The Fifth Elephant')."

 

Sounds cool.

[Lephys]

I'm not your babysitter or your instructor.

No, you're an adult human being. One would think you wouldn't intentionally engage in conversation with someone for several minutes, specifically about something you've said, THEN finally tell them "Oh, hey, I'm not even talking about that, even though I've been talking this whole time and I know that you weren't on the same page I was this whole time."

 

Would you order something at a restaurant, WATCH them make the wrong dish, let them finish making the entire wrong dish, THEN tell them "I think you didn't hear me correctly; I ordered this other dish. LOLZ! LOOK HOW MUCH TIME YOU WASTED!"?

[ccoolleeiiss]

Godlike, if not only for RP purposes.

[Volourn]

Yes.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

hey what race is that blue barbarian backer portrait that was showcased kind of recently? He had blue bald head and sharp shark like teeth. I'm guessing that's the Aumaua. I guess I'm gonna have to look that up cause I don't know anything about the races in the game other than a tiny bit about the Orlans.

[Faerunner]

Definitely Elf because that's my standard, but the Orlan fascinate me too. And the Godlike. And the Aumaua.

 

You know what? I'm going to take turns playing every race (except human) and experience what it's like to be everybody. The trouble is deciding who goes first. =/

[Lephys]

^ I feel ya, Faerunner. Obviously, we'll have to start a new game with every single race, all at the start, then play each one for approximately 15 minutes at a time. Do a quest with Class A, save, load Class B and do the same quest, on until Class Omega, then progress further with Class A, rinse, and repeat.

 

Totally doing it...