Ukraine Redux

[213374U]

The other thread was closed, so I figured, what better excuse to bring it back than some juicy propaganda and conspiracy theories?
 
Estonian foreign minister and EU foreign affairs rep Catherine Ashton discuss the possibility that Kiev snipers were provocateurs
 
Oh, wait. The call has been confirmed as genuine and it ties back to something one of our members (clearly a FSB stooge like myself) posted in the other thread:
 
 

 

Ukrainian opposition parliament member was caught sneaking in a silenced rifle during the Maidan protest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQe2g3VB1o

 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65164-ukraine-burns/?p=1425350

 

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/lhkMwsTreyI

[Malcador]

That's some dedication to being provocateurs if true, here the cops just pretend to be rioters and break some glass.

 

Also Canada strikes back - http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/russian-soldiers-training-in-canada-given-24-hours-to-leave-country-1.1717172

Edited March 7, 2014 by Malcador

[Mor]

 

Previous thread link

 

Quick summary of the topic, for those of you who unfamiliar with it to get you started:

Why is Ukraine in turmoil?

Why Crimea is so dangerous?

How the crisis unfolded - timeline summary.

 

A nice summary of issues from US preservative on Russian rhetoric, which covers a lot of issues discussed in previous thread.

 

 

US state department memo, so take it with a grain of salt, still it provide a good summary of the major point raised by the two side. I wouldn't say that Russia would necessarily pick those 10 points for its case, but its good enough and provide decent summary (I learned new details on two points)

 

As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.”

 

Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort:

 

1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea.

 

The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians.

 

2. Mr. Putin says Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

 

The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

 

3. Mr. Putin says The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

 

The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption.

 

4. Mr. Putin says Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

 

The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

 

5. Mr. Putin says There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.

 

The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees.

 

6. Mr. Putin says Ethnic Russians are under threat.

 

The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents.

 

7. Mr. Putin says Russian bases are under threat.

 

The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action.

 

8. Mr. Putin says There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine.

 

The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

 

9. Mr. Putin says Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea.

 

The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada.

 

10. Mr. Putin says The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.

 

The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.

 

 

For those unfaimilar with Oby post on Russian topics and or didn't put him in the ignore list:

Also, Gorgon, you're better off asking your sis to stop turning people into stone than expect sources from oby. He/she/it is too busy inventing new crap to fling against the designated enemy of Russia, kind of like communist parties did once for Moscow. Given his/her/its insistence, it may be a paid shill.

 

Map of the area and list of previous conflict in the region involving Russian help:

 

 

 

 

 

Some humor:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

Crimea vote 'will not be recognised'Ukraine's interim prime minister has warned the Crimean parliament "no-one in the civilised world" will recognise its referendum on joining Russia.

 

---

 

Crimea which is an autonomous region within Ukraine -- which has a long time separatist movement, supported by Russia and made possible due to its large ethnic Russian population, it is also the location leased Russian Black fleet bases\headquarters.

 

Crimea made a spontaneous break just after the "success" of Euromaidan protest(against corruption and Russian interventions), when Ukraine president was deposed and early election were called, the break away came two days after russia started major training exrcise on the Ukrainian/Russian border in form of Pro-Russian well equipped, armed and coordinated force(claimed to be self defense force by Russia, and Russian or Russian directed force by others). Who took Crimea Parliament, major strategic locations etc..

 

Crimea local Parliament which was held by these men disbanded it self, and appointed a new Pro-Russian leader and called for referendum. These moves wasn't recognized by Ukraine nor the international community.

 

Edited.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

Donetsk begin rebellion against Kiev. Local Police take side of rebels. Predict another butthurt in White house.

http://youtu.be/VktqzB01hh8

[Sarex]

Worth noting for anyone new to this thread, while you have Oby on one side of the scale, you also have Mor to balance it out on the other.

[Mor]

Indeed I hope I am balancing it out some of that propaganda, deflection and various assertions, speaking of which concerning our last post do you still assert that Ukraine impeachment of its president(after he run away in the middle of national crisis) or call for early elections are unconstitutional, if so why?

 

--

 

All that talk of oby, propaganda, paid commentators and seeing his contribution to "Obama Impeachment" thread, make me think of this article which might sound sound familiar to some of you who has been keeping up:

 

 

excerpt from Full article, tl;dr part in bold:

 

The Heritage Foundation experts believe that Russia’s current vision of “soft power” has remained practically unchanged since the Soviet period and consists of, above all else, the idea of strengthening Russia’s international influence while weakening the influence of the United States. Quite a few experts and analysts suggest that in many respects Russian propaganda is based on the principles of anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism.

 

For example, in her book Lonely Power: Why Russia Has Failed to Become the West and the West is Weary of Russia, Lilia Shevtsova suggests that Russian official propaganda has not changed significantly since the Soviet era. Old ideas still dominate Russia’s politics: “Americans cannot be trusted, Americans are guilty; Americans are hypocritical; and the Americans are a threat!” [2]. As Lev Gudkov pointed out, creating a feeling of external threat is an effective means to consolidate society: "The specter of an enemy is an extremely powerful means for creating internal cohesiveness and, solidarity with the authorities. As soon as this image of the enemy gets formed <…> there emerges a powerful mechanism for consolidation on the basis of the principle “us vs. them” and America becomes the main villain."

In Putin’s Russia, it took quite a few years to develop a relatively broad “soft power” strategy to fight the “villain” and create a favorable image for itself in the international arena. Indeed, elements of this strategy are still being developed.

..

In many respects, RT’s “support” consists of creating a rather idealistic picture of Putin’s Russia, in contrast to an America drowning in poverty and crime, facing continuous class struggle, and ruled by ruthless corporations. Not surprisingly, in the best tradition of propaganda, the focus puts a particular spin on the events it covers. For example, although RT informed the audience about the protests in Russia, it created the impression that nothing serious was happening. Everything was under control of the authorities, who have their hand on the pulse of the citizens’ needs and, as usual, out of concern for ordinary citizens, reacted sensitively to public discontent by “liberaliz[ing] the political system and strengthen[ing] the democratic process.”

On the other hand, protests in the UK and the United States received significantly greater coverage, which is quite consistent with the tactics chosen by official Russia: “What right do you have to criticize us? Look at what is happening in your country!” (See the recent article “Kremlin Diplomacy, Soviet-Style: Putin’s Russia Revives ‘Look Who’s Talking’ Routine” by Vladimir Kara-Murza.) This tactic, to a large extent, defines the direction of RT’s work and its reaction to external irritants.

 

 

p.s. For those itching to make comparisons with "west" as before, please first take a look at your Censorship by country guide.

 

Also on that note iirc Russia recently made a move against its only independent major mass media outlet and consolidated few state run into new state controlled international news agency. so yeah..

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[Elerond]

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/62578.html

 

All troops in Crimea are claimed to be Crimea's own self defense troops, but some reason they have exact same GAZ Tigr 4x4 vehicle that Russia exhibited on their military parade in Moscow two years ago .

[Tagaziel]

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/62578.html

 

All troops in Crimea are claimed to be Crimea's own self defense troops, but some reason they have exact same GAZ Tigr 4x4 vehicle that Russia exhibited on their military parade in Moscow two years ago .

And ride around in vehicles with Russian military plates with numbers that just happen to correspond to the Black Sea Fleet and the Southern Military District in North Caucasus.

[Gorgon]

http://youtu.be/lhkMwsTreyI

I felt sure you meant she was the hipster journalist. I mean she's discussing military deployment like she was doing a testimonial for shampoo.

[Malcador]

This 'information warfare' sure is bloody boring.

[Mor]

 

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/62578.html

 

All troops in Crimea are claimed to be Crimea's own self defense troops, but some reason they have exact same GAZ Tigr 4x4 vehicle that Russia exhibited on their military parade in Moscow two years ago .

And ride around in vehicles with Russian military plates with numbers that just happen to correspond to the Black Sea Fleet and the Southern Military District in North Caucasus.

 

Btw that doesn't mean that they are Russia military per se. They can be Russian PC, or locals equipped with local Russian stores, in either case it very unlikely that they didn't get Intel and operational plans forces or directed by their leason. In either case it is Russia violation of Ukrainian sovereignty.

 

btw it is possible that Putin relive his KGB glory days and sees this whole thing as major retaliation/battle against the "west"(like Georgia was a retaliation for Yugoslavia), just like he sees Euromaiden protest as some kind of Westren plot...

 

or maybe Putin felt that the Ukrainian protest against Soviet style corruption was touching too close to home and might bolster the Russian protesters and calls for reforms who in recent years challenged his 15 years position in power.

 

Edited.

 

This 'information warfare' sure is bloody boring.

I doubt that people of Ukraine feel this way.. Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[HoonDing]

http://youtu.be/lhkMwsTreyI

Tropes vs Russia.

[Mor]

More like yet again demagoguery and deflection from Russia taking illegal unilateral actions and trying to justify it after the fact.

[213374U]

That's some dedication to being provocateurs if true, here the cops just pretend to be rioters and break some glass.

 

Also Canada strikes back - http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/russian-soldiers-training-in-canada-given-24-hours-to-leave-country-1.1717172

 

 

Okay. What happens if they don't leave within 24 hours? Are they declared to be illegally occupying Canada too?

 

A pity for those who were learning Russian, though.

 

 

 

For those unfaimilar with Oby post on Russian topics and or didn't put him in the ignore list:

Also, Gorgon, you're better off asking your sis to stop turning people into stone than expect sources from oby. He/she/it is too busy inventing new crap to fling against the designated enemy of Russia, kind of like communist parties did once for Moscow. Given his/her/its insistence, it may be a paid shill.

 

Take your paternalistic bull**** elsewhere, m'kay? We're all grownups here, we can make up our minds without your "help". Find a way to get off that doesn't involve telling people what to think. Go read a book, for a change.

[Malcador]

Okay. What happens if they don't leave within 24 hours? Are they declared to be illegally occupying Canada too?

 

A pity for those who were learning Russian, though.

Probably, just be escorted out by the police and sent out. I doubt they'll refuse to leave. Plays well for the government, already have people fist pumping over Canada standing up to the Russians or some such nonsense (add in "We're doing this and the US does nothing, we're badass!" for extra laughs).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Canada kicked out the Russians so Rob Ford could take their coke.

[Mor]

Analysis: Why Russia's Crimea move fails legal test

 

"Contrary to these obligations, Russia has augmented its forces in Crimea without the consent the Ukraine. It has deployed them outside of the agreed bases, taking control over key installations, such as airports, and encircling Ukrainian units.

 

Russia's actions have created space for the pro-Russian local authorities in Crimea to displace the lawful public authorities of Ukraine. Legally, this clearly amounts to a significant act of intervention - indeed, as Russian military units are involved, it is a case of armed intervention."

 

 

Plays well for the government, already have people fist pumping over Canada standing up to the Russians or some such nonsense (add in "We're doing this and the US does nothing, we're badass!" for extra laughs).

It's not just Canada, NATO has suspended most(all?) exercises and joint operations with Russia and increased its presence in the region. Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Yep, which makes it even less notable but it still made the news.

[213374U]

Plays well for the government, already have people fist pumping over Canada standing up to the Russians or some such nonsense (add in "We're doing this and the US does nothing, we're badass!" for extra laughs).

 

That's probably easier for Canada than pretty much anyone else, given Canada's ginormous natural reserves of fossil fuels. I have no idea what % of the economy is owned by Russian capital, though.

 

It's interesting in the article too that for some reason 10 days is not "enough" for a referendum to be "valid". Regardless, a referendum under the present circumstances is going to be a hard sell as far as legitimacy goes. They really should let int'l observers monitor that, if they are dead set on seeing it through.

 

Also, reminder that under the agreement that allows Russia to deploy troops in Crimea, the ceiling is set at 25,000 servicemen. Last reported figure on the ground was 16,000... 

Edited March 7, 2014 by 213374U

[Mor]

Yep, which makes it even less notable but it still made the news.

Why wouldn't it? It is local news for Canada, I bet similar snipsets poped up across the globe, though I didn't see anything of the sort (including this) in the global political sections.

 

--

 

Meanwhile, even though Russia claim that all those Pro-Russian forces wearing Russia's uniforms\equipment and driving their vehicles, who took hold of strategic position(including around Ukrainian military bases) with military precision are just local defense forces with no affiliation to them. But I wonder how they will explain blockading the Ukrainian port in Sevastopol, prevented Ukrainian navy from leaving?

 

I wonder if they will claim that this too is part of their base lease program with Urkaine, or not an intervention, or just more local defense force sailing Russian ships

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[213374U]

In other news, the ECB recipe for austerity (read: economic slavery) is proceeding at full speed in Ukraine, political crisis or no.

 

At this rate, the whole of Ukraine will be begging to join Russia by year's end. smh

[obyknven]

Obama: Crimea Referendum Would Violate International Law.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/obama-crimea-referendum-would-violate-international-law-n46146

It's mean Scottish Referendum Would Violate International Law too. Scott's can't  into independence, Obama ban your Referendum!

(Scott's don't worry, we send to you 20 000 guns, and other Russian eqipment for creating Scottish selfdefence. Everyone decide it's Russian invasion and do nothing for stop this. It's work perfectly in Crimea and must work in your home also).

[Malcador]

Why wouldn't it? It is local news for Canada, I bet similar snipsets poped up across the globe, though I didn't see anything of the sort (including this) in the global political sections.

Popped up on the world news feed on Reddit I was following, probably a bias to that.

 

This was an interesting read - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720